326: Fire the Stage Manager!

All three hosts are back this week, and the discussion ranges from favorite bookstores to favorite window managers, with a healthy dose of mental health in between.

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Fire the Stage Manager!

[00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired.

[00:00:04] Christina: You are listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren, and I am joined as always by Brett. Uh, by Brett Terpstra. I was gonna say Brett Severns. Guntzel. Uh, would be, which would be funny. Now

[00:00:15] Jeffrey: Big news.

[00:00:16] Christina: News. Your two favorite podcast host got married? No, uh, by Jeff Severns. Guntzel and Bre Terpstra.

[00:00:23] Christina: How are you guys doing?

[00:00:24] Brett: So well tired, but good.

[00:00:27] Jeffrey: I, uh, I tore my meniscus at, um, at a bookstore,

[00:00:35] Brett: What, uh, what, what bookstore

[00:00:37] Jeffrey: uh, I

[00:00:38] Jeffrey: was

[00:00:38] Brett: a bookstore over the Jungle Gym?

[00:00:40] Jeffrey: no. Every bookstore I realize is ableist because you can’t get down to that bottom shelf if. You know, if you have any trouble like squatting or bending over or eye problems, whatever. So I was, I was at Dreary Lane Books in Grand Moray, Minnesota, which is right on Lake Superior.

[00:00:57] Jeffrey: It’s an amazing, tiny, [00:01:00] independent bookstore. And it is a great example of how good curation can make a small bookstore feel big. And I like to go there. We go there every spring break, uh, to Grand Mare. And I like to go to that bookstore and look at every book, um, just scan every shelf. And I was squatting down to scan the bottom shelf and something July 4th like happened in my left knee and I tipped over.

[00:01:26] Christina: Oh no.

[00:01:29] Jeffrey: And then a couple days later when I’m home, it swelled up super bad. And I went to, by the way, orthopedic Urgent Care. Right. That’s a thing. And. And that is amazing. And if you go to the rich suburbs, uh, nobody’s there. And so you get right in. So anyway, how am I doing? I’m actually doing good, but my knee hurts and I, I, uh, it’s been pointed out that it’s a, it’s the nerdiest thing ever to tear it at a bookstore.

[00:01:55] Christina: Well,

[00:01:56] Brett: the show notes, what was the name of that book?

[00:01:58] Jeffrey: Uh, Drury [00:02:00] Lane. D r u r y. Like the muffin man. Yep, exactly.

[00:02:05] Brett: Yeah, I, I, I figured it’s, I love independent bookstores, so, we’ll, we’ll put 'em in the show notes. Maybe, maybe someone will be like, Hey, I want to go to the place where Jeff, uh, Torres Meniscus,

[00:02:16] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:17] Brett: if you, have you guys ever been to literati in Chicago?

[00:02:22] Jeffrey: God, I lived in Chicago, but no, when, how long has it been

[00:02:24] Brett: I have no idea. A while, but I don’t know, at least five years, maybe 20 for all I know. But great bookstore,

So quick note from the editor. The bookstore I’m talking about here is actually in Ann Arbor, and I visited on the same trip as I went to Chicago and I mix up my locations. But the reason Jeff had never heard of it is because it’s in Michigan.

[00:02:47] Christina: no. The one, the ones that I know, and I know Seattle has some, but I’m gonna be honest with you, Seattle’s a city kind of sucks and.

[00:02:53] Brett: has,

[00:02:54] Christina: Portland has Powells. I, yeah,

[00:02:56] Jeffrey: they have

[00:02:56] Christina: say, I was gonna say, Portland has Powells and then in New York it’s Strand [00:03:00] and, and that’s just like the best, um, like

[00:03:04] Jeffrey: I was just getting into this with someone like Powells is Strand, but better somehow.

[00:03:09] Christina: Yeah, agreed. But, but, but it’s one of those things like, like, like the strand was like not far from where I worked. So I might

[00:03:16] Jeffrey: Yeah. Amazing.

[00:03:17] Mental Health Corner

[00:03:17] Christina: I might have told the story before, but I had this, it was like the greatest day ever where, and it didn’t start out that way. Uh, I think this is actually a good segue to Mental health Corner.

[00:03:25] Christina: I got off the subway, it was like 8 45 in the morning, which for me was early cuz I never got to work like in time for the 9:00 AM meeting. That was just sort of a known thing that I was gonna either be on the call or I’d be coming in late. Cuz like, I just didn’t, I just was not a morning person. So unless I was on TV at.

[00:03:44] Christina: 7:00 AM or 6:00 AM or something. I was not in the office early, get off the subway, and I just like had this overwhelming sense of dread and I was like, I can’t do it today. I can’t do it. I can’t go in, I can’t do it. And so I made up an [00:04:00] excuse because back then, and this was like six years ago, like you quit seven years ago.

[00:04:04] Christina: Like you couldn’t say, oh, I’m having a mental, I need a mental health day.

[00:04:08] Christina: So, um, I get, I, I make up an excuse, like I was like, oh, I just threw up or something or another. I was like, I’ve gotta go back home. But instead of going back home, I was like, I don’t really wanna go back home.

[00:04:20] Christina: I know I can’t do anything else. Like, uh, like I can’t do work today, but I don’t know what else I could do. So I went to the Strand and I walked around and like, as soon as it opened, like I had to wait like a couple minutes and I walked around there for a while. I wound up buying a couple of books and then I found like a 10:00 AM showing of, of, of Spotlight, like, cuz that was in theaters then at, at, at the, at the, uh, Regal In in Union

[00:04:43] Jeffrey: Is that the one about the Boston Globe’s coverage of the sex scandals in the church.

[00:04:47] Christina: Yes. And it’s a, just a fantastic journalism movie and it’s just a great movie all around. So I see that movie at like 10:00 AM in a fairly empty theater. And keep in mind, I’m, I’m within blocks of my office, so I, at this point I’m like, Hmm, [00:05:00] I got lunch, but I was like, Hmm, you’re gonna have to go home because somebody will see you.

[00:05:05] Christina: So then I like went to Prospect Park for the afternoon and then I went home and it was like the greatest day.

[00:05:11] Jeffrey: That’s nice. That’s

[00:05:13] Christina: like I, I, I played hooky, but it was like it was much needed. And then like, I, I was able to come back to work like the next day and like actually be able to function. So,

[00:05:21] Jeffrey: I, in my experience in New York, we lived there for like three or four years. Like those days where you’re like, fuck it, I’m walking around. Like it’s got that sort of Ferris Bueller’s whimsy to it, you know? It’s such cuz you can go anywhere and you can do any kind of thing and it’s so great. Anyway. I love that.

[00:05:38] Christina: Anyway, so that, that’s, that, that’s my like bookstore slash mental health Treat yourself story. Go, go, go to a bookstore. Go to the go, go to the movies, go to the park.

[00:05:50] Jeffrey: Yes. The. Oh man. So I used to work in warehouses. It’s pretty hard to feel bad about calling in sick to a warehouse. Um, [00:06:00] and I did one day and it was a, it was a music distribution warehouse. It primarily distributed independent labels related to, or adjacent to reco disk, which had like Frank Zappas whole catalog.

[00:06:12] Jeffrey: And they had like evidence, which had like sunrise whole catalog. It was just an amazing warehouse and we would get amazing visitors. Henry Rollins came once to talk to us when he, he started this really cool label with Rick Rubin called Infinite Zero back in like 96 or seven. And it was just meant to get stuff back into print that was most important to just the two of them.

[00:06:32] Jeffrey: Um, and Henry Rollins, for all the weirdness of that dude came and addressed just the warehouse workers to tell us how much these albums and these CDs mean to him and how grateful he is that we’re helping to get them out into the world. That is classy.

[00:06:49] Christina: Yeah, it is.

[00:06:51] Jeffrey: And then, and then the other thing that happened was I called in sick one day and I learned at the end of the [00:07:00] day that Bootsy fucking Collins had visited the

[00:07:03] Brett: Oh, do you miss

[00:07:05] Jeffrey: who was a hero of mine. Going back to when I was a kid, that was my first concert, was Parliament Funkadelic like, and I loved him so much and I was so sad. And I have an autographed CD thanks to my friend Joe, but it doesn’t feel good. just reminds

[00:07:22] Jeffrey: me

[00:07:23] Christina: weren’t there.

[00:07:24] Jeffrey: I wasn’t doing anything wrong. It was a shitty warehouse job. Like I shouldn’t have been punished like that.

[00:07:28] Jeffrey: Bootsy Collins. I could have shook his hand. I could have just heard him, you know, talking. Yay.

[00:07:33] Brett: then you, you never missed another day again after

[00:07:36] Jeffrey: Yeah, no, I got fired about two weeks later. I, I, uh, I was, I was, uh, the first strike was the president of the company came into the warehouse and there was a vending machine right next to the door. And I was on the floor with my arm all the way up the vending machine trying to get a candy bar.

[00:07:54] Jeffrey: And he just looks at me and he goes, get out of there. And then a couple weeks after that, I organized a [00:08:00] pallet jack race where we would all just like, you could use 'em like scooters and the corporate meeting offices look down over the warehouse. And at one point I see in that window, like the entire administration leadership looking down on us, just like shaking their heads.

[00:08:15] Jeffrey: And so anyway, eventually I got fired, which was the right, right thing for them to do. Um, and, uh, anyhow, call in sick days.

[00:08:25] Brett: Sick days. Mental

[00:08:26] Jeffrey: I don’t have to do that anymore.

[00:08:28] Brett: All right, so speaking of mental health days, um, I, should I start, I.

[00:08:35] Jeffrey: Do it. I just wanna point out that Brett is talking to us as his cat is in the foreground, staring at him.

[00:08:41] Brett: staring me down.

[00:08:43] Christina: and and I’m like, I love your cat so much anyways. All right. Go on.

[00:08:46] Jeffrey: What are we talking about, Brett?

[00:08:47] Brett: okay, so the, the first update I have is, um, a week of microdosing mushrooms. Um, I wrote a blog post about this, [00:09:00] um, and things were going really well, uh, except l l did not appreciate that I was so publicly putting illegal substance use out on the internet where it could be linked forever.

[00:09:14] Brett: And, um, so I, I. Redacted the post. And, uh, I put up like a, Hey, you know, when things are decriminalized, I’ll tell you more about this, but I think it’s okay to talk about here. Maybe you won’t put anything in this show notes, but, um, I, I found the right dosage of the, the current strain of mushrooms I’m getting is about 200 milligrams a day.

[00:09:39] Brett: And at that dosage, um, like there’s no, no visuals, uh, y you don’t feel like you’re tripping at all. Like, that’s not the point. Um, but, uh, definite mood elevation, definite attention, um, improvements. And, uh, I feel emotions, a wider range of emotions than I usually [00:10:00] do. I get, I get more excited and more empathetic and, uh, it, it, it was going really well and it wasn’t causing any mania.

[00:10:10] Brett: But then I had this snafu where, so I went to the hospital back in December. With cuz my watch told me right, that, that my heart rate was elevated. And then, uh, the doctor at the last time, I got a refill for the first time, she’s like, I can’t give you a refill on Vivance until I hear from your doctor. And my doctor does not respond to messages or emails or calls even.

[00:10:42] Brett: Uh, the only way I’ve ever talked to him is to see him in person. Um, so fortunately I had a meeting, uh, an appointment coming up soon and I did, I went to see him after I had been off five for about three days. And he said, there’s no problem. Uh, like it was a [00:11:00] fluke that you were in the hospital. There’s no reason to stop your meds.

[00:11:03] Brett: And most cardiac events, uh, aren’t exacerbated by stimulants anyway. Um, So, uh, he, he, he said, sure, go ahead, uh, continue the Vince, I go back to my doctor who as I’ve mentioned before, is moving to another practice. And the in between her denying my refill and me getting approval from the doctor, she had officially left the practice and discharged me as a patient and could no longer fill my prescription.

[00:11:32] Brett: And so the only option was to go back to my doctor and ask him to fill it until I can see her again. And like I said, he doesn’t respond to anything, so I didn’t have a lot of hope. Um, I, I sent a message through the portal and I made a phone call and talked to a sympathetic nurse, and a day later he did come through and I got my Viva.

[00:11:54] Brett: But when I’m off Vivance for a few days and I take it, boom, manic episode. [00:12:00] So Thursday night I didn’t sleep at all. Um, released a whole new project. It, I love it. It’s great. Um, but.

[00:12:09] Jeffrey: I am not caught up on that.

[00:12:10] Brett: Yeah, I haven’t written about it yet. You’ll see it soon. Um, but in the, in, I slept last night, uh, pretty well. I think the manic episode was short-lived.

[00:12:22] Brett: Um, I don’t seem to be manic today, so it was like a one day cyc cyclo theia kind of event. So that’s where I’m at now. Coming, coming off a manic episode, have my vivance back, um, learning more and more about microdosing and getting really good results from it. To summarize, in summary,

[00:12:46] Jeffrey: That’s. Great. I was just talking to my cousin the other night about, uh, his experience microdosing and it’s super frustrating how far ahead of the laws, um, this particular thing is. You know, it’s [00:13:00] like really frustrating cuz it’s technically schedule one. It’s illegal to have, but everybody I know who has tried it and it’s five, six people have only reported for them very positive effects.

[00:13:13] Jeffrey: And that’s just, that’s a small sample

[00:13:15] Brett: I mean the, the medical community though is very much interested in decriminalizing hallucinogenics so that they can continue what have proven to be very hopeful studies thus far. I think Washington, is it Washington that allows me medical use of mushrooms.

[00:13:34] Christina: I think so. I think so. I, I, I don’t know the details, if that sounds right, because most things

[00:13:40] Brett: I know there’s at least one state that lifted the ban on

[00:13:43] Christina: it might be Colorado,

[00:13:44] Brett: and maybe acid, maybe it was Colorado. They were, they were leaders in the weed decriminalization.

[00:13:50] Jeffrey: I think it is. In fact, I’m, I’m looking at a Colorado public radio story called Stressed Out. Busy Moms say Microdosing mushrooms makes life easier [00:14:00] and brighter. Um, and it is, yeah, it’s, it’s great. And I just wanna read one of these sentences, mommies, who microdose are among the fastest growing groups of followers send us mommies, who microdose and, and also the photos in this are by my old colleague, Hart Vandenberg, who’s a wonderful photographer and a wonderful man.

[00:14:18] Jeffrey: I put it in the show notes.

[00:14:20] Christina: here. All right. He here. Here’s where it’s decriminalized. It is decriminalized. And, and this is according to the Wikipedia page, which is the status of psycho, uh, cylo mushrooms. Um, and then they have like possession sale, transport, cultivation, and then the notes. And so the United States just for possession.

[00:14:37] Christina: Sorry, let me scroll down to where this is. I really do hate Wikipedia as the, the way they do tables, honestly. Um, in the future, I will use chat g p T for this because I bet it will be in a, in a prettier way. All right. It is illegal, but decriminalized in Seattle, Washington, and Arbor, Michigan. Oakland and Santa Cruz, California, [00:15:00] Summerville and Cambridge, Massachusetts, Oregon.

[00:15:02] Christina: So the whole state of Oregon and Washington, DC and it’s legal in Colorado,

[00:15:07] Brett: All

[00:15:07] Jeffrey: Oh, okay.

[00:15:09] Christina: decriminalized in Seattle. Um, but, but it’s interesting that it’s just Seattle. So I’m like, okay, is it just the city of Seattle? Is it like the other, probably is just the city. Um, and, and it’s decriminalized in Ann Arbor because, you know, you gotta, you got, you, you gotta like let the, the, the rich like coy toy folks, um, have access, but also, I mean, honestly makes sense I guess from like a medical

[00:15:33] Brett: It’s a, it’s a big, yeah, it’s a big college town with a big medical program,

[00:15:38] Christina: right? Yeah. That, that’s what I’m saying. So that, that makes sense. Ok. Oakland and Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz. I can see Oakland feels a little Okay. Um. Because there’s not, it’s not like there are good hospitals in Oakland. There are good hospitals in Palo Alto. Uh, there are good hospitals in San Francisco. I don’t know if there are good hospitals in Oakland.

[00:15:56] Christina: Um,

[00:15:57] Jeffrey: There’s gotta be good hospitals in Oakland.[00:16:00]

[00:16:00] Christina: I, I, I, I don’t think so, but, but I will let

[00:16:03] Jeffrey: Fuck you Oakland.

[00:16:04] Christina: I will let listeners correct me. Um, what I’m sure is wrong, uh, Summerville and Cambridge, so, you know, Cambridge makes, makes sense. All of Decriminalize, all of Oregon and Washington, DC within Colorado is just like fucking legal dude. We don’t care.

[00:16:17] Brett: I, it’s, it’s so weird that it’s by and large, so like city by city, like, is it just that hard to get state legislation passed that the cities, the city’s real, like, we’ll, just within our, with our, within our borders. You’re

[00:16:31] Christina: Probably, and, well, I don’t know, like in Washington, in Washington state, I feel like it’s something they could probably get passed, but I don’t know. But I also know the, the, the Seattle City Council, who’s I hate. And I, I think that they’re completely like incompetent and I’m so glad that the piece of shit, um, city councilwoman is not running again.

[00:16:55] Christina: Um, sorry, uh, to people who are, are fans of, uh, uh, [00:17:00] Kshama, um, Saan, but she fucking sucks. Um, but

[00:17:04] Jeffrey: coming after everybody Oakland, the city council.

[00:17:07] Christina: mostly just Seattle. I’ve just been pissed off at Seattle for the last couple of weeks to be totally honest with you. Um, but, uh, but, but my, my city councilwoman is a, she fucking sucks.

[00:17:16] Christina: She’s the fucking worst person in the world. Um, she’s like the, she, she, she’s the person who makes all socialists like, look bad because she’s such like a, like a, a, a, she’s so left. She’s like, it goes into just like a, it, it, it goes into parody status and literally like makes everything that we fight for like harder because of assholes like her.

[00:17:37] Christina: Um, but, uh, I, I, I can see it having no problem getting past in, in Seattle City Council. I would think they could do it statewide though. Maybe it just takes more time. I don’t know.

[00:17:50] Brett: Minnesota still hasn’t legalized weed, but we can have

[00:17:53] Jeffrey: We’re close.

[00:17:54] Brett: Yeah,

[00:17:55] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty much, I mean, we have a completely Democratic government at this point, [00:18:00] and so it’s one of those things that’s just gonna kind of slide right through.

[00:18:03] Christina: Yeah. I, I read this, this deranged National Review article this week from some, like, I felt very sad for the family, but that was just like, wow, you guys are completely taking this out of like blaming the wrong thing who are going on this anti, like, legalization of marijuana scheme because their schizophrenic daughter who overdosed, it’s very sad.

[00:18:23] Christina: They blame her schizophrenia on the fact that she like smoked weed in college.

[00:18:27] Brett: huh?

[00:18:28] Christina: it’s like,

[00:18:29] Brett: Is that legit?

[00:18:31] Jeffrey: That’s not what they mean when they say gateway.

[00:18:32] Christina: that’s, that, that, that is legit.

[00:18:34] Brett: I’m told that my drug use may have caused my bipolar. Um, it, it, there are other members in my, on my mom’s side of the family that had bipolar, um, all of which are dead now. But, um, I was told by both my therapist and my psychiatrist that drug use, uh, in a young brain can lead to [00:19:00] complications such as bipolar disorder.

[00:19:02] Christina: I, I think, and I don’t know cause I’m not a doctor, but the studies and the things I’ve read are that if you have something that’s latent that’s already there, it, it’s possible that drug use at a young agent, it depends on the drug and, and, and marijuana. I think that there’s, there’s some dis, you know, there’s some confusion about this.

[00:19:19] Christina: I think it would have to be a lot, and I think that it would have to be a very specific circumstance. Could be the thing that could like maybe. Like set someone off, like unlock what’s already there. But I think that it’s like a, a massive reach to be like, this caused it, because as you said, like you’ve got other members in your family, you don’t know whether they did, you know, drugs or, or, or not.

[00:19:40] Christina: But it could also even come down to like, well this could be, you know, medications that you’re on. Um, could do things too. I think there’s some people who might be, you could make an argument, are predisposed, um, to cer to developing certain conditions. And maybe like drug use speeds it up, but,

[00:19:58] Brett: I had bipolar [00:20:00] symptoms, uh, in high school and I didn’t really get into, I was, I was drinking in high school, but I didn’t really get into like any massive drug use until I was like 16. So my first couple years of high school, I was definitely displaying symptoms of mania and depression, uh, before

[00:20:23] Christina: B before. Uh, there’s also, I think, an argument to be made that people who are, uh, you know, potentially, um, having symptoms might be seeking out drugs to

[00:20:34] Brett: Oh yeah. Yeah. See, that’s the thing is when I, when I think about like my, my heroin addiction, um, it very much like I sought it out because of my, my mental kind of imbalances, my needs, um, like the need for dopamine and the need for a kick, and the need for a way to numb my feelings. Like it was all very much like my [00:21:00] mental health led to that kind of addiction.

[00:21:04] Brett: I don’t think, I don’t think normal, happy people seek out heroin.

[00:21:08] Christina: right. No, I, I don’t think, like, yeah, I mean, I, and, and I don’t know who does, I mean, like, I think maybe you’re bored, maybe you know, you don’t know whatnot. Like, because I, I’ve certainly done certain drugs when like had nothing to do with like the state of my mental health, which is like, okay, fuck it.

[00:21:23] Brett: I wanted to do something dangerous. I get a real kick out of throwing caution to the wind. And I couldn’t think of anything more dangerous than, than doing hard drugs.

[00:21:33] Christina: no, fair enough.

[00:21:34] Brett: I get, it was real exciting. It still is. The thought of like, doing drugs is very much appealing to me. Like all of my bad experiences combined don’t make it any less appealing.

[00:21:48] Christina: Is, is it that you know that you could die? Is it the risk factor? Like, or, or is it the taboo in it being illegal and dangerous?

[00:21:54] Brett: it’s the taboo. And just knowing that it’s gonna feel really good and, and I can forget about [00:22:00] everything else for a little while. Not just problems, but forget about everything else and, and just focus on, on, you know, the drug. But

[00:22:10] Jeffrey: Did you, did you watch, um, fear of the Walking Dead?

[00:22:14] Christina: I did, I, I watched like the first few years.

[00:22:18] Jeffrey: was, so this character Nick played by Frank Delaine, who’s just amazing in this role. Um,

[00:22:24] Brett: right?

[00:22:24] Christina: Yeah.

[00:22:25] Jeffrey: and I, I was just curious if you had seen it, like there are all kinds of stages of his experience that get represented and he, I think he does a really powerful job of representing them. But there is this moment where he’s been almost like willing to be reckless when things are getting dangerous around his family.

[00:22:43] Jeffrey: And, and there’s a point where I believe he has to sort of make a decision and, and his family’s, you know, urging him not to, and he makes this point of like, I’ve been close to death so many times, like I’ve died. You know, he’s like, I’m, I’m ready. But he talked about sort of how [00:23:00] he kind of hit at that thing, about the risk of it.

[00:23:03] Jeffrey: Um, which is something that like, I don’t think people often understand about heroin addiction or heroin use is that, That sense of like walking up to the ultimate line potentially and not knowing how you’re gonna come out of it, is that, is that, I mean, does that resonate or is that kind of a fair reflection of

[00:23:20] Brett: some extent. I just, I’ve never, like, I started thinking about my mortality at a very young age and, um, I think I just kind of accepted that I’m gonna die one way or another. And it wasn’t necessarily a thrill to like seek out death, but it didn’t, it didn’t scare me. So I don’t think, I don’t think that was a reason I did it.

[00:23:43] Brett: I don’t think that was where the thrill came from. Um, but a side note, A D H D people, it’s, it’s been theorized that, um, we exist because in an evolutionary capacity, [00:24:00] um, A D H D people are the ones. Notice when things are wrong, fastest, and in situ, in pressure situations, we’re the ones that take control.

[00:24:10] Brett: We’re the ones that are like, suddenly come into our own. We’re like, no, I got this. And we’re willing to take risks. We’re willing to do dumb things to like save the day. And like for like early man, and even, even early le even post Ad Man, like that kind of characteristic needed to exist within a community.

[00:24:35] Brett: Uh, it’s less so now, now it’s more of a detriment, but like in especially a hunter gathered society, it, it makes a lot of sense. You would want, you would want the ADHD

[00:24:45] Christina: you would want the person with, with, with the low impulse control. It’s so interesting cuz my adhd, like, I don’t have like lack of impulse control. Like that’s not one of my, that, that’s like not one of my symptoms. Uh, which is, um, which is interesting. I don’t think [00:25:00] that I’m not, and, and I’m not trying to like make this a across gendered lines because I just don’t know enough.

[00:25:04] Christina: But I do wonder if, because there is a, whether it is, uh, genetic or, um, um, if it, if it’s like a, you know, sociological thing, you know, you see the difference a lot of times. Like, uh, and I know this from my mom, like you can observe very clearly little boys who have a D H D in the classroom. Like it’s very, very obvious little girls.

[00:25:26] Christina: It’s not. Usually because they don’t have the same lack of impulse control. And I don’t know, like what the reason for that is. I don’t know, again, if it’s like a, you know, a, a genetic thing, like a chromosomal thing or if it’s just like a, a, a conditioning thing

[00:25:41] Brett: yeah, no, I, it definitely presents differently in, in females

[00:25:45] Christina: 100% like, like because, because the thing is is that I definitely was a lot more, and I wouldn’t say I had impulse control, I was just more like, I don’t give a fuck. Like when I, before I entered elementary school, I was definitely, like, my personality was definitely much more like, [00:26:00] um, outgoing and like, they called me the wild woman and I would like, do you know some things that you might, might strike you as, as, as impulse things.

[00:26:09] Christina: But, but then I don’t even know how to like grip that cuz I’m like, okay, if you’re two years old, like, what, what, what does that mean? You know what I mean? Um, but um, I didn’t, I didn’t have any of the symptoms when I was in elementary school. People never would’ve thought that I was adhd, but then looking back at it and I’m like, oh, no, I, I had those things.

[00:26:28] Christina: It’s just I was able to cope with it very well, and it was hidden.

[00:26:31] Brett: well, yeah,

[00:26:32] Christina: I don’t, I, I didn’t get diagnosed until I was, you know, like 15.

[00:26:35] Brett: same with autism too. Like girls at a young age become better at masking symptoms than boys do.

[00:26:43] Christina: Totally. Although I, I think like for my A D H D, it wasn’t even a masking thing per se. I mean, Like some, there were, there was some masking. I would mask my depression, but like I didn’t feel like I was masking, you know, like I, I remember when I got diagnosed I was like, this is insane. And it was [00:27:00] one of those things that, that I even like blamed.

[00:27:02] Christina: It’s funny kind of going back to the topic, like I’ve been on Prozac and Prozac is the thing that seemed to kick off like the most overt a ADHD symptoms I’d ever had where I was no longer able to control if, if they’d been there before, like I would maybe put things off then I would maybe, you know, kind of get into scenarios where I would have to, you know, kind of crunch.

[00:27:19] Christina: But I was always able to do it and it was never a problem. And then, Prozac, I was like literally unable to focus on anything. And I, I’ve never, I’ve never felt more like stereotypically ADHD in my life than like, when I was on that drug. And then even going off of it, it didn’t stop. And so there was, you know, like is not, you know, these things are not correlation.

[00:27:41] Christina: Whatever correlation’s, not causation, whatever that the phrase is. But there was like a, an instinct where you wanna say, oh, this happened because of this, but like, I, I don’t think that would be an appropriate thing for me to be like, oh, I went on this antidepressant and that’s what caused my A D H D.

[00:27:57] Christina: Like, because I can go back and I can [00:28:00] look at, oh no, I had these other latent things. Now did it exacerbate a thing that was already in my mind and maybe have it present itself earlier and were acute. Than it would have otherwise. Sure. Um, but like, I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say that we need to ban Prozac the same way.

[00:28:17] Christina: You know, like, again, I guess awful as I feel for the, the, the individual family whose, you know, daughter, like, went from being seemingly perfect to having schizophrenia and then dying. It’s like, you know, she was, she was schizophrenic. She wasn’t going to be okay if she’d never smoked pot, you know?

[00:28:35] Brett: yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting, uh, that, that Prozac connection though,

[00:28:40] Christina: Yeah.

[00:28:41] Brett: that’s not a, that’s not a side effect I’ve ever heard

[00:28:43] Christina: no, and, and it’s not one that anybody else has ever seen, but it was so acute. It was literally like an overnight thing. Like it was literally a, a like, you, you’re taking this drug and a complete important, a comport, an important component of your personality completely changes.

[00:28:58] Brett: Doesn’t Prozac [00:29:00] have like a one month titration period? Like I, I’d be curious like what, what chemical reaction happened? Uh, because like for depression, you don’t even see depression symptoms get better for, I think it’s a month.

[00:29:14] Christina: It depends. And, and I’m very sensitive to medication, um, especially in SSRIs, which is why I can’t take traditional SSRIs. And, and we found this out because I went on like 15 or 16 different ones in a, in a small period of

[00:29:29] Brett: I know how that goes. Yeah.

[00:29:31] Christina: And, and there, there’s another component there, which is my, um, my age was one thing, but my body weight and my bone age was another.

[00:29:41] Christina: And this was before a lot of doctors had experienced prescribing these sorts of things, essentially to children. Because when I was 15, my bone age was eight and a half and I weighed like 68 pounds. So, you know, um, how so, so yeah, like, so they’ll, [00:30:00] they’ll scan your, your wrists and stuff and they’ll like compare like the size and like the density and things of your bones.

[00:30:06] Christina: And,

[00:30:06] Jeffrey: Oh yeah. Bone density is part of it.

[00:30:08] Christina: and, and they’ll, they’ll, they’ll age it that way. And, um, I, I was so small and, and like hadn’t gone through, you know, puberty and all those things that, it was one of those things that like having, you know, they were having to look up on, on their, you know, charts and things, okay, how, how do we even dose this?

[00:30:24] Christina: How do we even prescribe this? Because the normal dose would be this. How do we give, how, how do we dose this to someone, you know, um, this size. Um, and so which was, which was a challenge. So, um, I don’t know, like it could have been a, but, but it was one of those things where it was within days. It was definitely within a week where I noticed on Prozac it was like an instantaneous.

[00:30:48] Christina: Oh, I, I can’t focus, I can’t pay any attention. I remember my mom sitting in the, um, kitchen table with me trying to run flashcards for me to learn my biology, like study for a biology test, and her just [00:31:00] being almost like in shock because her straight A, like type a like child, like, couldn’t focus on her face and couldn’t remember one thing to the next and couldn’t stop fidgeting and couldn’t, you know, have any amount of, of, of, um, like recall.

[00:31:18] Jeffrey: Yeah. Wow. Huh.

[00:31:22] Christina: So, I don’t know.

[00:31:24] Jeffrey: Yeah. Bone d not to like, but, but bone density was something that we had a member of our family who, um, was having just kind of had two weird stress fractures outta nowhere, and bone density is the kind of thing that you have to have the right doctor to even bring it up. I mean, we went to a couple of doctors, nothing came up.

[00:31:44] Jeffrey: Then all of a sudden it was like, I think I called my cousin to talk to him about it. He’s like a, he’s a podiatrist, and he’s like, first thing he said, get the bone density checked. No one had done that. It’s so interesting how, how you can, how there can be such a big thing that just gets missed.

[00:31:58] Christina: Yeah, no, you’re [00:32:00] right. And, and that’s something like, I always have to like bring that up whenever, um, I have any sort of, you know, like, like break or whatever. Like, I had to mention it when I was hit by the car and like, I broke my wrist, bring it up. I was like, soap, you should know, you know, I had to go on certain things and like, I, you know, my bone is deep age.

[00:32:17] Christina: Other stuff I’ve, I’ve less, like, I, I was basically told when I was a child I was like, yeah, you’re gonna have osteopenia, osteoporosis. Like, it’s, it’s not a will you, it is a when will you thing. Like, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s like, you know, um, so, you know, I had to point that out. I was like, might look okay in this thing, but this is not the way it goes.

[00:32:37] Christina: Like, even if you, if you meet me in person, like you’ll notice like my bones are still very small. Like I’m, I’m, I’m a small person, but like my bones are like petite in a way that it’s like, you know, I, I appear smaller than I am.

[00:32:50] Brett: So you’ve been tw, you’ve been 29 for at least five years now. Do you think your, your bone age

[00:32:55] Jeffrey: Oh, good question. Good

[00:32:57] Christina: That is a good question. I don’t know. I should get that. I should get [00:33:00] that done. Um, I don’t know because it’s possible that it could go higher, like, you know what I mean? Like, it’s, it’s possible. Like, no, no. Cuz it’s, it’s possible that like, that, that it could, that it could inverse. I don’t know.

[00:33:11] Jeffrey: Or could you take your actual age and if your bone age is younger, use that in a little bit of math to be able to really, truly say,

[00:33:19] Christina: I mean that’s, I mean, that is sort of like my, my like rationale for, you know, remaining as young as possible, as long as. Is the fact that actually, you know, I’ve got like a five and a half, like six year like deficit between, you know,

[00:33:37] Jeffrey: I’m 16 in bone years.

[00:33:41] Christina: I’m 29 and boney years.

[00:33:44] Jeffrey: That’s great.

[00:33:45] Christina: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. That was my mental health update. But I didn’t mean to interrupt you Brett, but are

[00:33:49] Brett: Oh

[00:33:50] Christina: doing okay now?

[00:33:51] Brett: Oh yeah, yeah. No, that was a very thorough mental health update for Brett and uh, and Christina’s kind of slid in and overlapped, so, uh, yeah, [00:34:00] I’m good. Jeff, how are you?

[00:34:01] Jeffrey: I’m doing, I’m doing good. I, my what’s been on my mind a lot lately, which is certainly a mental health connection, is chronic pain. And, um, and I just wanna shout out to all my chronic pain people out there, um, who, who can only you can know how truly debilitating chronic pain is. It is very hard for the people in your life to hold that, right.

[00:34:23] Jeffrey: Like, to hold it constantly in part because you’re not always acting out of chronic pain. Right. Um, but the thing I’ve been thinking about is I, I’ve been making so many doctor appointments to deal with various kinds of chronic pain. I mean, I’m, I’m a really, I’m a big guy. I’m six four. I’m like two 70 thanks to Seroquel medication that makes you gain a lot of weight.

[00:34:45] Jeffrey: Um, and I recently like gained weight, sounded so fast because of that medication that my joints were like, ho, ho, not ready. Didn’t warm up for this. And uh, anyway, the chronic pain thing that I just wanna [00:35:00] say, and I wanna say to anybody out there for whom this might be useful, and I understand there are a lot of people with chronic pain for whom this won’t be useful, but that I’ve had some good luck recently by just getting into somebody who I trust to talk to.

[00:35:15] Jeffrey: It’s a hard thing to do and I’m definitely leading into our Zoc doc sponsorship, but, um, but I have found some really key relief by finally just going in, which is a thing that’s hard for me to do in. When I went in with my torn meniscus, I’ve actually had some issues with that knee for about a month or two, and he said, what have you done for it?

[00:35:37] Jeffrey: And I was like, I’m a Scandinavian. I didn’t do anything, man. I thought about, thought about surviving the next winter, started gathering berries. That’s what I did. Anyway, I mostly am saying that just to like send out like little empathy torpedoes to everybody out there who’s, who’s experiencing chronic pain and, and is frustrated and paralyzed by it sometimes z.[00:36:00]

[00:36:00] Brett: I, uh, I, I wrote, I wrote, I put together a new script for us. Christina. It’ll be a cold read for you.

[00:36:06] Sponsor: ZocDoc

[00:36:06] Christina: All right. This episode is brought to you by Zocdoc. All right, so you’ve been suing about a health problem you have, maybe you’ve torn a, maybe you’ve torn your meniscus. Maybe you’re concerned about like, what is the bone age of, uh, of, of your arm. Uh, maybe you’ve got something else going on. You’re almost resorting to texting your, your group chat to get your friends opinions, which, you know what?

[00:36:29] Christina: Depends on your group chat. I’m, I’m gonna be honest about you, uh, with, with you on that, like depends on the group chat. You’re extremely unlikely to find quality medical advice in your group chat, but again, it’s gonna depend, uh, but you can find it from a doctor on Zocdoc. Thousands of medical professionals on Zocdoc are there to help you and they listen like a friend and they give you expert care that you need.

[00:36:50] Christina: Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed. Take your insurance are available when you need them, and treat [00:37:00] almost every condition under the sun. So no more Dr. Roulette or scouring the internet for questionable reviews. With Zocdoc, you have a trusted guide to connect you to your favorite doctor you haven’t even met yet.

[00:37:11] Christina: Millions of people use Zoc Docs free aft to find and book a doctor in their neighborhood who is patient, reviewed and fits their needs and scheduled just. I’m one of them. I’ve been using Zocdoc for more than a decade. Um, it is my go-to place to find a doctor. So go to zoc.com/ Overtired and download the zoc app for free.

[00:37:31] Christina: Then find and book a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That’s zoc. DO c.com/ Overtired zoc.com/ Overtired zoc.com/

[00:37:47] Brett: Overtired,

[00:37:48] Jeffrey: Oh, we should have harm. We should have harmonized.

[00:37:50] Brett: Overtired, I’ll take the high part. No, I can’t do that. Um, so, uh, we are once again telling our listeners about [00:38:00] the Tech meme Ride home as our promo swap. Uh, when, when the New Yorker magazine asked Mark Zuckerberg how he gets his news, he said the one source he definitely follows is Tech Meme.

[00:38:10] Podcast Swap: Tech Meme Ride Home

[00:38:10] Brett: For four years now, the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast has been Silicon Valley’s favorite tech news source. The podcast has become so successful in fact that it launched a venture fund where the listeners are where the listeners to the show are the LPs and the. The tech meme Ride Home is like T L D R as a service.

[00:38:30] Brett: It’s not just the latest headlines from the world of tech, it’s also the context around the latest news of the day. It’s all the top stories, the top posts, and tweets and conversations about those stories as well as behind the scenes analysis. Guests who have come on to lend their experience include Andreessen Horowitz’s, Chris Dixon, and Bloomberg’s Apple Rumor King Mark Germond.

[00:38:52] Brett: The folks at Tech Meme are online all day reading everything so they can catch you up. So listen to the one podcast. [00:39:00] Anyone who’s anyone in Silicon Valley listens to every single day. Search your podcast app now for Ride Home and subscribe to the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast.

[00:39:12] Jeffrey: Boom, we are sponsored.

[00:39:16] Apple BAD!tude

[00:39:16] Brett: Should we talk about some max stuff?

[00:39:18] Christina: Yes. Let’s, let’s please, we were having, we were starting to get into a really good bitch fest right before we recorded that. I wanna hear from both of you about, so Yes.

[00:39:26] Brett: like, I feel like that’s a vital part of the Apple community is just complaining. Um, if, if you don’t complain, things don’t get better. Right?

[00:39:34] Christina: that’s exactly true.

[00:39:35] Jeffrey: don’t think my complaints help things

[00:39:37] Brett: Yeah. Same

[00:39:38] Jeffrey: you I think could make some, could make some motion.

[00:39:41] Christina: I, I ha I have successfully bitched on Twitter on a couple of occasions and gotten things fixed. Um, uh, like

[00:39:48] Brett: on for, for individual teams. Like I can see like the web kit team listening to someone like you, or maybe even me, but Apple as a

[00:39:56] Christina: Oh, no, absolutely not. No, no, no. But I’m just saying like, yeah, if you [00:40:00] can get things in front of the right people, um, and to be clear, like in, in like the most recent case, which was a, like a a T B o s instance, it was an issue that had been in a backlog.

[00:40:09] Christina: And then, um, the, the, the hornets nest that I kicked up that other people then added onto then like, made it prioritized. And I’m very thankful to the people who, who prioritized it so that I can access my Apple TV library on my Apple tv.

[00:40:24] Brett: Yeah, that’s handy.

[00:40:25] Christina: It, it’s useful, right? It’s useful to be able to access the, the things you’ve purchased on the device that, that the company makes when you can access it on all the other devices that are not made by that company in their app, but not on their latest and greatest, um, device.

[00:40:40] Christina: Yeah.

[00:40:41] Brett: Last night, my girl, we were sitting down to, uh, group watch, um, Ted Lasso and my girlfriend’s sister.

[00:40:49] Jeffrey: season.

[00:40:50] Christina: good.

[00:40:50] Brett: it is really good. But my girlfriend’s sister loaded up Apple TV on her Mac, uh, the TV app, and it came up and basically said she had nothing in her [00:41:00] library

[00:41:00] Jeffrey: yeah. Well this just happened to us. Yeah,

[00:41:02] Brett: we troubleshoot it.

[00:41:03] Brett: Trouble shot it for a little while and then I was like, have you tried turning it off and turning it back on? And I rolled my eyes cuz, you know, generic advice, but she rebooted her computer and everything was fine. It worked. It always works.

[00:41:20] Christina: what’s interesting on the Apple tv, if you are still running into problems and they’re, they’re clearly have issues, it’s, it’s not, it, it’s clearly an Apple problem. Cause they don’t have this problem with other clients like, it, it is, it is on their own clients. Like if you’re using the, uh, apple TV app on a Firestick or on an LG web OS tv or on

[00:41:39] Brett: Wait, you can do that.

[00:41:40] Christina: Oh yeah.

[00:41:41] Jeffrey: Yeah.

[00:41:41] Brett: Oh, wow.

[00:41:42] Jeffrey: Yeah.

[00:41:42] Christina: they decided they actually wanted people to watch their originals, they realized that they couldn’t rely on people to spend $200 on their, at the time pretty shitty in comparison. Like set top box,

[00:41:53] Brett: That’s pretty obvious.

[00:41:54] Christina: Right. Like at this point I, I think that the pricing is better and it’s a decent experience, but I would still say [00:42:00] I can get a Fire stick 4k.

[00:42:02] Brett: like 40 bucks.

[00:42:03] Christina: Yeah, you can get for $25 a couple times a year, like $25. And I’m like, you can’t convince me that this is eight times better because it’s not. Um, it’s not. Um, and uh, so they realized, oh, most people have smart TVs and Rokus and other stuff. So if we actually want people to watch our originals, we have to come out of our bubble and, and make iTunes for windows.

[00:42:26] Christina: Um, which, you know, that, that’s a throwback to the iPod. The whole reason the

[00:42:30] Jeffrey: Yeah, totally. Totally.

[00:42:32] Christina: for Windows period. Um, it, it, it remained a Mac only thing. Apple as a company would not exist the same way that it does today. Anyway, that, that

[00:42:41] Jeffrey: You wanna, oh.

[00:42:42] Brett: to be fair, I own a stick. I have an Amazon Smart tv, I have a Roku, I have two Rokus and two Apple TVs. And I would by far prefer always to use the Apple tv.

[00:42:57] Christina: I don’t disagree.

[00:42:58] Brett: partly the, the [00:43:00] Touchpad remote is a big part of that. Uh, and the interface that’s really designed to work well, uh, with like touchpad thumb navigation, um, it’s, it’s, it’s perfect.

[00:43:10] Brett: It has its shortcomings for sure,

[00:43:13] Christina: and

[00:43:13] Brett: I, I don’t see things like the stick beating it out in a lot of the areas. It sucks

[00:43:18] Christina: no, I, I don’t, I totally agree with you on that. I’m just saying if you’re trying to convince somebody to buy one of these things, for a lot of people, $200

[00:43:27] Brett: Okay, so, so it’s better, but maybe not $125

[00:43:31] Christina: That, that’s my point. That, that, that, that’s my point. It, it, it’s better, but it’s not eight times better. Like if I can get one for $25 and one is $180, like y that, that, that’s my argument. So they make the apps now for those things, and you can access, what’s great about it, you can access all the original content, but what’s better is you can also access your library content.

[00:43:51] Christina: And that to me was what was kind of the game changer. So I travel with, uh, especially when I used to do international travel. I travel with a, a fire tv. [00:44:00] And I was, I would like it because I was like, oh, now I can watch my massive, um, like library of, of content that I’ve bought over the years through

[00:44:11] Jeffrey: Yeah, it is massive. I remember, I

[00:44:13] Christina: And, and yeah, it’s like, you know, it, it, and it’s massive, but it’s not like that bad. It’s

[00:44:18] Jeffrey: it makes sense year over year given the time you’ve been

[00:44:21] Christina: Totally. And, and also they have sales and so, but, but it’s also one of those things I’m like, honestly, like, because some people are like, well, maybe you just have too many things in your, in your library and that’s why you can’t access them.

[00:44:31] Christina: And I’m like, that’s not an excuse. Um, uh, especially when I buy them from this company. But, um, if you do, if you do run onto that problem, You can use the iTunes store apps on Apple TV where you can then have to go there to your purchases section and it’ll show you your purchases. And then you can play it that way if the TV app for some reason is not working on your Apple tv.

[00:44:52] Christina: But, uh, if you’re using a Roku or a Fire Stick or whatever, um, it should work. And if it’s not working on [00:45:00] your Mac, uh, as a l was smart enough to No. Just restart.

[00:45:05] Brett: I, um, uh, apple TV was not on our list of things to talk about, but I did wanna mention, uh, on my last trip to Michigan, um, I packed our Apple TV and an H D M I cable, and I was, I was really thankful for it when we got to the Airbnb and they had a big screen TV mounted on the wall and I could just plug in my Apple TV and it felt like being at home, all of my, all of my favorite, all my logins were already set up for Hulu and Netflix and all of the Apple TV apps were available.

[00:45:38] Brett: My, I got my Plex server working. I could remotely access, uh, my friends and my home analogy plex and yeah, it was Entertainment Central.

[00:45:47] Christina: No, I, if you’re traveling in the US I think that traveling with an Apple TV is fine. My one thing would be if you’re going internationally, maybe not if you’re wanting to use a VPN of any sort or if you’re at a hotel, this is the one thing. If you’re on a [00:46:00] normal, like non captive, I, um, uh, like wifi network, apple tv, traveling with it is great if you’re on a captive network.

[00:46:07] Christina: Um, the Apple TV does not like that. And so getting that connected is a pain in the ass. That’s why I like the Firestick. And actually Firestick has now become a little bit on some networks complicated too. So Roku is ironically the best choice. So, which is my least favorite. But if you’re gonna be at a lot of hotels, um, uh, take, take my advice and, and get a Roku or a Fire Stick because the captive network support, that’s what you want.

[00:46:32] Christina: Cuz otherwise you’ll have to do like create, try to create like a. You know, a, a a, a separate network connection between like your, your laptop and your, your, uh, um, apple TV in the hotel to like bypass the fact that you can’t log in to their stupid like system, um,

[00:46:53] Brett: Hotels have horrible, horrible, what, what are they called? The, you just said it, the name for the networks captive. [00:47:00] They h I hate, I hate hotel wifi. Um, I have a Roku with a Gyroscopic remote. Uh, like you can use it almost like a we, and you can like move stuff around on the screen by Mo. Yeah, it, it, it’s handy.

[00:47:14] Brett: But yeah, Roku’s not, not great software

[00:47:17] Jeffrey: hated that feature on the, we though, if I’m not lying.

[00:47:20] Christina: The, um, the, I think what l the lg, it’s not gyroscopic, but they have like a similar thing, like some people love it, some people don’t, where like you can kind of mo but it is sort of gyroscopic, I guess, where you can kind of move the remote to certain ways and then it’s got like this also, you know, this little cursor thing that you can use.

[00:47:34] Christina: And I always have to try to like,

[00:47:36] Brett: accelerometer

[00:47:37] Christina: That’s what the word is, accelerometer. That’s, that’s correct. Um, and, uh, I, I understand why it’s useful. I also understand why my dad hates the LG remote and, and uses instead like the com. He uses like the Comcast, Comcast, like the Xfinity Box to access all of his apps.

[00:47:56] Jeffrey: Also terrible.

[00:47:57] Christina: it’s terrible and it’s slow. And I’m like, use the one built into [00:48:00] your very nice television, or use the Apple TV or the Fire Stick cuz I bought you both, um, you know, use, use one of those. But, but, uh, that’s, he doesn’t quite get that. He, he prefers like the, the, the Comcast interface.

[00:48:17] Jeffrey: I hate those, uh, those like the, we control, I have a tremor and so it’s just a

[00:48:22] Christina: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.

[00:48:26] Brett: let’s

[00:48:26] Jeffrey: were gonna talk about stage

[00:48:28] Brett: Yeah, let, let’s, I don’t think we’ll have to spend long on

[00:48:31] Jeffrey: No.

[00:48:32] Brett: but

[00:48:32] Jeffrey: Can I just say why I brought it up? Like I didn’t, I’ve stopped following, um, the OS updates. I mean, I, I update, but I don’t look for anything special anymore.

[00:48:42] Jeffrey: Cause I just, it’s been a

[00:48:43] Brett: You don’t read all the release notes?

[00:48:45] Jeffrey: I don’t, I used to, I used to as of like two years ago even. But anyway, I was like, what’s this stage manager thing? Like maybe this is cool. And I turned it on and I was like, Immediately, like I was like my grandma with the VCR remote. I was like, I fucking need a [00:49:00] flashlight.

[00:49:00] Jeffrey: And what are all these buttons? And it was like, it was like how maybe you would’ve imagined a heads up display in 1975 is how it felt. And I was just, I got out of there so fast. I’ve never rejected something kind of native to the max so quickly, um, or to the os. So anyway, that’s why I brought it up. What the hell?

[00:49:21] Brett: And my response was like, I don’t use it. I, I tried it as well. Um, I don’t think I understand. Like on a Mac, on a phone, it makes sense that I would, I would want, you know, one or two apps connected together, split screen on an iPad and, and switch between like, pairs of apps. But on my Mac, I use everything all at once.

[00:49:46] Brett: Um, there’s like never a time. I don’t want access to other applications windows. It’s why I have 2 32 inch displays. Um, and, and I don’t like the idea that you can’t easily access another [00:50:00] running app because you have to switch stages.

[00:50:03] Jeffrey: That’s what blew my mind. I was like, are you serious? Is there any way out of this help help.

[00:50:07] Brett: And I did however, think it was better, uh, in execution than spaces.

[00:50:14] Brett: Um, I spaces like great idea and, and like I was, I was using whatever the X Windows version of spaces was way back on Linux in high school. And, and it was cool to see it come to the Mac, but the fact is like, like I said, I have two 30 inch, 2, 2 32 inch displays and I just have everything open and spread out.

[00:50:37] Brett: And the idea of like separating into different spaces just doesn’t make sense for my brain. That’s like, I minimize, you know, like I’ll hide all apps and just load up what I need. Uh, but I don’t wanna like flip between, especially once you get more than two, like two spaces. Sure. If you have a set of apps that are less accessed and all go together and belong on a space, [00:51:00] great.

[00:51:00] Brett: But you have to flip through more than one space and it’s so confusing.

[00:51:04] Christina: I totally agree. And then I’ll forget like that I have an app open in a space. This is what my problem with spaces would be, and it just doesn’t work with my brain. I’m the same way as you. And it like you. In high school, I really liked having separate virtual desktops. That’s what it was called.

[00:51:17] Christina: And Linux, I really liked that idea. Um, but for whatever reason, may, maybe it’s the Mackin implementation, maybe my brain and the way I use things is different. Maybe, you know, I wasn’t using multiple monitors when I was using Linux, that’s for sure. Um, and certainly not as big of screens as I have now. But now it’s like I forget that I have it open on a space.

[00:51:38] Christina: It’s all open up another instance of an app, you know, on like my main thing, and then forget about it. And then accidentally it’s like swipe over. It’s like, oh, okay, but that’s not where the tab that I wanted was, or that’s not where the document that I wanted was. It’s on this other thing, you know? And so you wind up, at least for me, I wind up recreating spaces that are all identical to one another.

[00:51:57] Christina: But with all different things. So it was [00:52:00] just like the worst case scenario. You’re literally not benefiting from anything. Cuz like I understand the point being like, oh, I have this set of tasks for this set of things.

[00:52:08] Brett: Right. Context if they, if they neatly fit into different contexts. Sure. But I never have distinct con context, like I’m

[00:52:18] Christina: Well and for me, like it would automatically, like if I would say, okay, I’m going, if I had spaces enabled a certain way, and if it’s like, okay, I need to go into this web browser if it automatically took me to that space.

[00:52:28] Brett: Oh, okay. So I do have context, like podcasting is a context for me. And the only apps that I ever access while podcasting are Chrome, where we do a recording quip where we have our show notes and my browser. And I could easily, and it would be cool to have a separate browser window with just, with just tabs from the podcast.

[00:52:51] Brett: Yeah.

[00:52:52] Christina: does that and I love it.

[00:52:53] Brett: But I could just open up a new Firefox window in another space, and any tabs I created would be in that [00:53:00] window. So it, that is a case where I could see, but I use bunch for that. I use bunch to literally like quit all the, all my other apps. So I have all the bandwidth possible, um, and just switch into the podcasting context.

[00:53:13] Brett: But I could see that with spaces. But speaking a bunch, one of the requests I get very often is how do I open, uh, a particular app on a specific space or, uh, can you interface with stage manager? And the answer to both is no. Like Apple has never provided any kind of accessibility or automation workarounds for dealing with spaces.

[00:53:38] Brett: Much like focus modes like you. I focus modes is even worse. Like I should be able to, from an automation perspective, be able to, uh, to access focus modes, uh, without using shortcuts. Like you can do some stuff with shortcuts, but yeah, it’s just, it’s annoying.

[00:53:58] Christina: but, but stage [00:54:00] manager, like in some ways is even more egregious than spaces to me. Cuz spaces is one of those things that I can kind of like turn off and kind of like, you know, I forget that it even exists. You know, I, I stopped activating it or, or whatever, you know? And, um, I, I, I don’t like have to feel like I, I deal with it.

[00:54:15] Christina: Like you have to deal with it from a support issue, but like, me as a human, like if, if I’d forgotten. I’ve forgotten about it, you know, unless I accidentally click like the plus, you know, button when I, when I’m, um, doing Expose is that the, the mode where you can see all your open windows, because that I do love, like I love Expose.

[00:54:30] Christina: Um, but, but unless I accidentally click on like a plus, you know, menu and add another desktop and then when I’m swiping I’m like, God, what did I do? You know, I’m fine. But stage Manager, you know, it was like touted as like this new like better windows management thing, which in my opinion, like Mac os desperately needs like a better like Windows manager.

[00:54:50] Christina: And it, like, I, it just does, and, and it, but it was also touted as being this thing that would work really great on the iPad. And then on the iPad it’s even worse than it is on the Mac. And it was so bad on [00:55:00] iPad os that, that uh, uh, Federico Vichi Uni Max stories, who’s like Mr. iPad, like railed against it and they didn’t release it.

[00:55:08] Christina: Like they had to hold it back a while until it got better, but it’s still not good. And I’m talking about somebody who has an M two. You know, um, iPad Pro, like, literally like the latest iPad Pro, and it’s like the performance is not good, but then the utility, like, I, I just, I understand what they’re trying to do, but to your point, Brett, like, you’re like, oh wait, so I can’t do this very basic thing that I thought that I would be able to do, you know?

[00:55:34] Christina: Uh, it, it’s bad. It’s really bad.

[00:55:37] Brett: Did Vichi write about this? Should I find something for the show

[00:55:41] Christina: I’ll find it. Um, I’ll find an ad, but yeah. Um, why do you think though, like Windows and I’m sorry, but I’m gonna have to give like, my former employer some credit here, like Windows 11 especially, but also with power toys, like, they’ve now added really good [00:56:00] tiling kind of windows managed support, like into the os like, uh, both into the, you know, Uh, the built-in stuff, um, for, for, for the Snap modes.

[00:56:10] Christina: But now with power toys, you can go even further and it is truly like, you know, uh, uh, a Ty window manager, like for Linux or whatever. But, um, at an OS level, I’m very pretty like, and I know that we have third party apps on Mac Os, but like, doesn’t that just seem like this is like low-hanging fruit that Apple could just do to really Im

[00:56:31] Brett: Yeah, they could, they could Sherlock Moom, which would be pretty amazing. But I really don’t think if they build it into the os I don’t think it’ll be better than Moom. Um, I love Moom to death and, and better touch tool with, for window snapping and like hot corners where you can like drag a window into a certain area and it will expand to fit, you know, a quarter or a half of your screen.

[00:56:54] Brett: Like that kind of stuff. I have no problem using a third party utility for, [00:57:00] um, yeah.

[00:57:01] Christina: I don’t have a problem with it. I just, I wonder, like if you, you clearly, they, they recognize that window management is a problem for them to create something like stage manager. Right? And, and, and in spaces before that, like you clearly recognize that it’s a problem. So if you’re gonna create stage manager, which is a mess, why would you not?

[00:57:17] Christina: I, I guess in my mind, I just don’t understand the priorities where you see all of the third party things like Moom and whatnot, and you see that that’s a direction that that works and that makes sense. But then create this completely, in my opinion, just like over designed and under, like, both over and Underdesigned like UI paradigm that you’re not even gonna have an p i for like,

[00:57:39] Brett: I will, I will say, and I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed this, but on, and I think it started a couple versions ago, but if you have two windows on your Mac desktop and you drag them near each other, the edges will stick. There’s this fine, and you can, I mean, just drag a little bit farther and it’ll go past it.

[00:57:57] Brett: But if you lightly drag two windows near each [00:58:00] other, you can easily align them. Um, that’s, that’s a nice touch. It doesn’t go in anywhere near your addressing your concerns, but little, little touches like that. I, I do impress me about the os.

[00:58:12] Christina: Yeah, I agree with that. Like that I really do like, like the fact that, like you said, you can get them so that they, you know, they, they, they touch or whatever. And I really do like that, but I just, I, I just look at like, it’s like you’re so close. You know what I mean?

[00:58:24] Brett: Yeah,

[00:58:25] Christina: Like, and then, and then you give a stage manager,

[00:58:29] Jeffrey: That’s what I was thinking. What the fuck is this?

[00:58:32] Grapptitude

[00:58:32] Brett: your gratitude this week is stage manager.

[00:58:34] Christina: ha ha.

[00:58:36] Brett: should we, uh, should we do a gratitude?

[00:58:38] Christina: should actually,

[00:58:39] Brett: Um, I, I will kick it off. My, mine will probably not take long. Um, I’m going with, uh, Microsoft Word this week.

[00:58:48] Jeffrey: Yes.

[00:58:49] Brett: I’m just kidding.

[00:58:50] Christina: I was gonna say that, that doesn’t sound right.

[00:58:52] Brett: That doesn’t sound right. Um, no. I’m gonna go with an app called Code Runner. Um, I, I used to know the developer and I’ve forgotten [00:59:00] who it’s by.

[00:59:00] Brett: Hold on. Code Runner about Code Runner. Oh, Nick Nikolai Crill. Um, So this is a little app that basically gives you an r e p l a rep for a bunch of different languages, and you can, it’s got a nice editor with, uh, code completion and syntax highlighting and everything. Um, and you can write your code for like Python or Objective C or Swift or Ruby, and you can instantly run it and get console output, um, as you, as you work.

[00:59:37] Brett: And for, uh, hammering out an idea, uh, like I love it for JavaScript stuff too, although, uh, VS. Code and Sublime Text, both have pretty good res for JavaScript, um, and, and, uh, accessing the Chrome console. But, um, for, especially for like Python, which I’m not great at and need to test my work often in, [01:00:00] um, the Code Runner is just a, a very well done tool that fits a very specific need.

[01:00:09] Jeffrey: Awesome. Yeah, it’s been solid forever.

[01:00:12] Brett: It has and it, it, it, it improves, uh, slow more slowly these days. Uh, but it is, it is, uh, it is solid. It has been solid, and it has improved over the years. I don’t think it’s on Setapp, is it?

[01:00:27] Christina: Uh, it is

[01:00:28] Jeffrey: It is. Yeah.

[01:00:29] Brett: there you go. Setup or code runners on setup.

[01:00:33] Christina: yeah, so if you are a setup subscriber, which man I love setup. That’s just like

[01:00:38] Jeffrey: So good.

[01:00:39] Christina: unpaid, just like promoted, like that completely unpromoted, but just completely like genuine, like love

[01:00:46] Brett: I recently revised the script I wrote that Will, you can run it and it will tell you what apps are on your system that are also on setup so that you can choose to run the setup version and thereby give part of your setup [01:01:00] subscription to. The developers, uh, as a, as a subscription fee. Um, which only makes sense because set up versions are fully unlocked.

[01:01:09] Brett: Uh, and, and there’s no, if, if an app has a subscription model with a pro level, that’s what you get on set app, you get the pro level. Um, but I, I revamped it or I revised it with some corrections that I got from, uh, from users, um, uh, via Macedon. And um, I had a couple of people contact me because they ran it and it told them like 20 of their apps were on setup.

[01:01:35] Brett: And they’re like, well, why would I pay for setup if I already own all these apps? But I just want to clarify that this script is to tell you how you could take apps you own and, and give the developers more money. But there are a couple hundred apps on set apps, and this script will not tell you all the apps that you could be using that you don’t already own.

[01:01:57] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, uh, [01:02:00] can I say two things about code?

[01:02:01] Brett: Yeah.

[01:02:02] Jeffrey: One is as soon as you open it up, if you’ve never used it, go into, they say settings in the, in the top, in the menu bar, but it’s called preferences in the actual preference window. I don’t know what that’s about. Um, but anyway, edit file type associations.

[01:02:18] Jeffrey: It’s on the first page at the bottom. And just make sure that everything is unchecked so that you don’t start opening, um, code files in Code Runner I did for the longest time, I didn’t think to look at that and it, I would like, I don’t want this anymore. It’s driving me crazy.

[01:02:31] Brett: I kept, I kept forgetting, like I, I had not set yaml. Um, so every time I opened a config file code runner would pop up and I, I rarely want Code Runner to be the default editor for any file type. Like I intentionally open Code Runner. So yeah, di disable all of those file type associations.

[01:02:51] Christina: Speaking of that, isn’t there a Mac app that will tell you like what your default apps are or that makes

[01:02:59] Brett: There used to [01:03:00] be, uh, it was originally called RC default app. Um, there’s a new version rewritten in Swift, and it might be called Swift Default App. I, I would’ve to look it up. Um, I’ll, if I find it, it’ll be in the show notes, but yes. Um, RC default app was awesome for, uh, doing some very system level adjustments to what, uh, file types are associated, uh, what, uh, bundle IDs are associated and even like protocols, like if you want like a d different handle handler for like mail to or FTP protocols, and you could set all that in there.

[01:03:36] Brett: And there is an updated version of it. I’ll have to find it.

[01:03:40] Christina: Okay, cool. Yeah, cause I was gonna say, I remember there being like a better version, um, or a better like tool for that. Um, and, and I couldn’t remember what it was because

[01:03:49] Brett: So it, it was a, it was a system preferences, pain or like a plugin does system set. Can you even have plugins in the revamp Ventura system [01:04:00] settings? Like all of those apps are gonna have to come up with their own Oh, that sucks. I fucking hate, that’s, that’s what I want to bitch about with Mac Os. Right now, that system setting panel is

[01:04:10] Christina: It’s fucking terrible and it’s not like it was good before.

[01:04:13] Brett: they changed the name of it.

[01:04:14] Brett: So all of my launch, my keyboard launching, like I’m used to typing sp so I had to manually assign SP to open system settings instead of system preferences. I hate that.

[01:04:25] Christina: No, I hate it so much. And then it’s like, you know, you have enough muscle and like look to be clear, anything they changed it with, we would’ve had problems with because you get a certain amount of muscle memory and they would change the order of stuff. You’ve between OS versions even when it had the same over overall interface.

[01:04:39] Christina: And that would annoy me cuz I was like, I, I don’t know.

[01:04:42] Brett: so

[01:04:43] Christina: you know what icon is cap?

[01:04:44] Brett: there’s a setting and system preferences on previous versions to display. Alphabetically and I, that would be the first thing I always

[01:04:51] Christina: Okay. I never

[01:04:52] Brett: does move around. Um, and if it’s displayed alphabetically and you get used to it, it’s easy to find stuff. System settings I [01:05:00] could not use without the search.

[01:05:01] Christina: No, you have to

[01:05:02] Brett: the only way to find what you’re looking

[01:05:04] Christina: No, you have to use the search. It’s, it’s good search, but it’s not like, but it seems so weird to me. It’s like, look, spotlight is fantastic and, and, and we love it. Um, and I’m glad it’s there, but I shouldn’t have to use a search thing to find like the settings paint that I want for something.

[01:05:23] Christina: Like, to me, that’s just a sign of bad design.

[01:05:28] Brett: Oh, the other J side note, I know we’re over time already and you guys haven’t done your gratitude yet, but um, Do you guys use full keyboard access? So in keyboard settings, you can turn on full keyboard access, which means that when a dialogue pops up, you can hit tab to switch between the buttons and then space bar to hit a button.

[01:05:51] Brett: Um, and I had it enabled in system preferences, but it wasn’t working. And like it would ac [01:06:00] on some apps, it would work. In some apps it wouldn’t, and I couldn’t figure out why. But then I discovered that in, um, in, uh, keyboard settings, there is a, a shortcuts pain where you can assign system short, uh, keyboard shortcuts for apps and function keys and everything.

[01:06:18] Brett: Um, in the, uh, keyboard, pain of the keyboard settings, um, there’s, uh, an option called, uh, turn keyboard access on or off. There was another one that was like, oh, change the way taboo’s focus and you can assign that to a keyboard shortcut. And I hit the keyboard shortcut that was assigned to it, and all of a sudden everything started working again.

[01:06:47] Brett: It seems to function independently of the full keyboard access setting,

[01:06:52] Jeffrey: Huh?

[01:06:53] Brett: just in case anyone else is running into that.

[01:06:56] Jeffrey: Yeah.

[01:06:57] Christina: Okay. That is interesting. And, and that is, [01:07:00] uh, okay,

[01:07:02] Jeffrey: We’re getting into the weeds. Everybody who wants to stay in the weeds, I like it in the

[01:07:06] Christina: like in the weeds, uh, do you, do you have your gratitude ready?

[01:07:10] Jeffrey: I sure do. Um, my aptitude, so I’m a member, owner of a research and evaluation. Firm that is a collaborative in, based in Minneapolis. We do work all around the world, and there’s about nine of us. Um, it’s all social justice based, uh, social justice based work.

[01:07:28] Jeffrey: Um, and uh, anyway, so I have just tried Grammarly for business. We’ve always used Grammarly, like individuals in the organization have used it. But we’ve started to get, like, we’ve started to get like kind of more critical of how we communicate with clients or how we do sort of public facing communication.

[01:07:49] Jeffrey: I remember who’s the, uh, journalism critic at nyu who, uh,

[01:07:55] Christina: Jay Rosen,

[01:07:56] Jeffrey: yeah, I remember Jay Rosen. I think it was him saying, you know, [01:08:00] in journalism you should treat. Thing you do as an editorial product, so your emails an editorial product, like whatever. Right now that really impacted me as a journalist, having heard that and changed me generally.

[01:08:13] Jeffrey: Um, and we’re kind of like hitting that point in our work where we want to kind of treat it that way. I’m trying to talk people into treating it that way. So Grammarly for business, like I’ve used Grammarly forever, but Grammarly for Business allows you to basically turn Grammarly into a like Scrivener level, um, feature party.

[01:08:32] Jeffrey: And, and it’s just like, it’s amazing. So you can create your own style guide, um, that is just like, it’ll just underline something because you know, like we, we’ve written things, we’re there and there is wrong, right? It’s like it just happens, right? You, you put the wrong there and you’re moving too fast, whatever, like it happens to a couple of our members.

[01:08:49] Jeffrey: And so I made a style guy that’s like, Hey, if you’re using the word. E r e or the word there, e i r, you’re just gonna see it underlined. It’s like, Hey, is this the right one? You know? Um, and, uh, and then you’re allowed to, [01:09:00] it allows you to just kind of turn, um, features on. There’s about, there must be a hundred features that are like, if you wanna try to not use, uh, bi, you know, if you wanna use non-binary language or if you wanna like, uh, use your dates this way, or whatever.

[01:09:14] Jeffrey: And so anyway, it’s been amazing. And I’m in the process of creating a style guide, which you can do in a CSV file and just upload. Um, their interface is a little clunky, but, uh, if anybody’s out there and has the, the funds or the need and a small business, or, which is what ours is, um, Grammarly for business is amazing.

[01:09:33] Christina: Cool. So in Grammarly for business, do like, do they not now upload all of your stuff to their cloud? As for training stuff, like, can you at

[01:09:40] Jeffrey: No, they, they do as far as I know. And I don’t know if business I haven’t gotten so far, cause I’m on the seven day trial, that’s a big concern of mine, so I should have said that. I only use it for certain types of things. I use it for emails that aren’t sensitive and, you know, and honestly I use it to teach myself.

[01:09:57] Jeffrey: Like, I’m constantly learning. It’s like [01:10:00] it’s wrong a bunch of the time and there’s certain kinds of writing that it’s just totally inappropriate to go into Grammarly for. Um, it’s like working with a really stubborn copy editor where it’s like, hey, we have a voice, right? Like, and we wanna still professor voice, uh, don’t forget that.

[01:10:14] Jeffrey: Um, but that’s really important to me. And I’m not sure of the answer. Yet, but I mean, I, I’ve gone so granular as like we’ve had, you know, we’ve had, uh, emails to clients that are just too informal, right? Like we just wanna have a record of just kind of formal clean correspondence. And in case for any reason something goes wrong and they wanna like audit the partnership and they’re like, wow, these guys have just been like writing us and being like, let me know Lmk, or like whatever.

[01:10:40] Jeffrey: So anyway, if you wanna be uptight, which I do in this case, Grammarly for

[01:10:44] Christina: for business. Um, okay. I’m, I’m, I’m interested in that. Yeah. Cause my, my only concern with Grammarly, cuz I think it’s a great product, but my big concern has always been like, okay, you upload everything that I write and, um, so like for business purposes, like we are absolutely not allowed to use it.

[01:10:59] Christina: I [01:11:00] mean, I’m sure some people do, but it is, it is on our blacklist. Um, because, um, uh, the security audits have come back and they’ve been like, Um, and I don’t know if that was the, the, the personal version, the the business thing or whatnot. And, and I’m sure that, uh, we’re not the only, uh, organization and Microsoft was like this too.

[01:11:18] Christina: I’m sure that those are not the only organizations that have those sorts of concerns. And I know that certainly a lot of places have those things in place for, for chat, G P T and, and um, and, and even, you know, things like, uh, copilot, which can be, uh, turned off. Um, and, and, and by default on business doesn’t send anything at all back to anything.

[01:11:35] Christina: But, but that’s always like my, uh, my only weird thing with, with Grammarly cuz I find it useful is like, oh, I can’t use this for work because everything that you type in is used as their training set. And for, you know, uh, most of my work stuff, it would be completely fine. But there are some things that would be like, eh, you know, don’t, I don’t want that, uh, uh, used in some way.

[01:11:59] Jeffrey: [01:12:00] That actually reminds me, like for I, we do some pretty sensitive projects, like on juvenile justice and stuff like that. And, um, we have sort of a, a document security hierarchy where, you know, you, you’ve defined like five levels of security and it makes me think that the most sort of permissive model could be a thing.

[01:12:19] Jeffrey: Like in this you can, with this, you can use Grammarly, right? Like with this you absolutely cannot use Grammarly. So I’m gonna add that to the definitions. Once I research the security itself, maybe I’ll just decide to bail, but love it so far

[01:12:31] Christina: Good.

[01:12:32] Brett: a, I have a quick update. Um, you may remember. You may remember in the past we’ve talked about RC default apps. Um,

[01:12:40] Jeffrey: wait, what does that mean?

[01:12:43] Brett: the, it was the system preference thing we were just talking about. Um,

[01:12:47] Jeffrey: I drifted off

[01:12:48] Brett: yeah, no, I

[01:12:49] Jeffrey: so I, I was standing in for the listeners like, oh man, this is good, but I don’t know what’s going on.

[01:12:53] Brett: Um, it is called swift default Apps, the due Version, and you can use third party. [01:13:00] Pre preference pains in system settings. Uh, they show up way at the bottom of that horrible sidebar in system settings. Uh, but once you install swift default apps, which you can do with brew, um, uh, you get all, all the, all the usual internet, r i schemes, uniform type of Denis, and applications all, all configurable.

[01:13:22] Christina: Now, is this the one that has not been updated since 2019?

[01:13:24] Brett: Uh, yes,

[01:13:26] Christina: Okay. Okay. All right. But it still works. Okay, well then that, that’s all I needed to know cause I, I found that, cuz it was funny, we were both googling for these things at the same time and I, I found that, uh, and I was like, oh, but this has been updated since 2019.

[01:13:40] Christina: I wonder if this even works. So that is good to know that you can have also custom preference planes. Um, cuz that I, I was not aware of, um, I thought that had gone the way of the dodo so hap happy that that is not the case.

[01:13:51] Jeffrey: I listened this time.

[01:13:53] Christina: Um,

[01:13:54] Brett: what do you got?

[01:13:54] Christina: so mine is actually Moom, um, Honestly, we were talking about that and I was, I was like, [01:14:00] actually, you know, what Moom is is one of my, my favorites.

[01:14:03] Christina: I’ve also, I’ve used a number of these different things over the years. I’ve used Mosaic. I’ve used, um, what was one of the other ones called, um,

[01:14:12] Jeffrey: Oh

[01:14:12] Christina: rectangle or something?

[01:14:14] Jeffrey: something always back to Moom.

[01:14:16] Brett: Magnet. There was magnet. Yeah. Moom.

[01:14:21] Christina: yep. And, and, and, yeah. Magnet, that’s it. And, and so rectangle some of those things. And so I’ve used a lot of these things over the years and uh, and Moom is definitely the best. So, um, big, uh, big fan of that. If you’re somebody who wants kind of a tiling Windows manager experience on the Mac, that is, that is my pick.

[01:14:39] Christina: Especially one that’s like pretty and like easy to deal with. I still feel like that should be like a first party feature. Um, and I, not that I want many tricks to be Sherlock. Uh, because I feel, I still feel like Moom could be better, could be like, made to be better than, than whatever they were to do built in.

[01:14:57] Christina: But you

[01:14:58] Brett: How, like what [01:15:00] more could you ask? Boom. To do for, it’s

[01:15:02] Christina: no, no. What I’m

[01:15:02] Brett: never talked about this. Are we Sure We haven’t.

[01:15:05] Christina: I’m, I, I don’t think we have.

[01:15:06] Brett: It’s not on our master

[01:15:08] Christina: so no, I, I, we’ve talked about window managers, but I, or like Ty window things, but I don’t think we’ve gotten into this. I don’t think Moom could be any better. What I’m saying is I think that Moom could still be more advanced than what,

[01:15:19] Brett: oh, I

[01:15:19] Christina: what Apple does.

[01:15:20] Christina: That’s what I’m saying. But, but I feel like there should be a basic thing the same way that like the, the default Windows 11 experience is superseded by what is then done by power toys. Um, and, uh, and I, I, I assume there might have been some third party, uh, attempts to, to do things on windows. Nobody is as good as power toys.

[01:15:41] Christina: Power toys. It’s just, The tits. Um, but uh, yeah, I still feel, I still, I feel like there’d be a place where like maybe Moom would potentially be like Sherlock, but they, it would go above and beyond whatever Apple would do. I

[01:15:55] Brett: Can I tell you, can I tell you my three, three favorite things about Moom? [01:16:00] Um, first of all, keyboard shortcuts. So you can, like, you can say, uh, you, you can draw, you get like a grid of your screen and you can draw in that grid, what like a, a window position, like maybe the left half of your screen or maybe like the upper right corner of your screen.

[01:16:16] Brett: And then, uh, you can.

[01:16:17] Jeffrey: into thirds.

[01:16:19] Brett: you can assign keyboard shortcuts. So whatever the current window is, you hit the keyboard shortcut and it goes to that position on the screen. And I have a bunch of those in muscle memory as I move between windows. Second thing the, uh, it adds so that when you hover over the green icon in the traffic lights, like where the, where you close the window and maximize the window, uh, when you’re running Moom and you hover over that, it brings up a little shortcut panel and it has like this, it looks like a touchscreen on it, and you can draw in, like you click it and then you, you can draw on your screen where you want the window to go.

[01:16:57] Brett: It’s very cool. And, oh, what was the [01:17:00] third thing? Um, oh

[01:17:01] Jeffrey: that feature I now use more even than my keyboard shortcuts.

[01:17:04] Christina: Yeah, same. To be honest.

[01:17:06] Brett: And Windows sets, uh, well, I can’t, what do they call 'em in Moom? But you can, like, you can store, once you get a bunch of windows of specific apps in the positions you want them in, um, they’re called snapshots. Uh, you can take a snapshot and it will remember those apps in those positions. So the next time all those apps are running, you can trigger that snapshot and everything will go back to where you want it.

[01:17:30] Brett: And I, I, I incorporate that into bunches. So it launches all the apps and then then uses AppleScript to tell Moom to move all the windows.

[01:17:40] Jeffrey: The way I use that feature is if I’m working on like a project that requires, you know, a bunch of windows and I’ve got 'em all organized, um, I take a snapshot like that morning of the workspace and then throughout the day, once I sully it with other things that are open and whatever else, I do the keyboard shortcut for it and it just resets to, to where it [01:18:00] needed to be.

[01:18:00] Jeffrey: And I can think clearly again.

[01:18:02] Brett: Good pick. Christina, we had a lot to say about this.

[01:18:05] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Moom very, very good stuff. It’s, uh, it’s both in the Macapp store and without it, I tend to, I don’t, okay. I know that we’re going long. I don’t buy macapp store versions of apps. If I can buy a non macapp store version, uh, where, where are you two with that? Cuz if anything, I, I like, I go out, I try to avoid the Macapp store version if at all possible.

[01:18:27] Jeffrey: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve transitioned to that. I mean, it was a couple years ago, but like, that’s totally how I, how I am. And, and in fact, the last time I used a profile to set up a computer, I was amazed. Cause I used like MAs, which is like, you know, and, uh, I was amazed at how few Mac store apps I had. Um, it looked wrong.

[01:18:47] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett,

[01:18:50] Jeffrey: I, I wish setup was a little easier to interact with, like from the command line or whatever else. But

[01:18:56] Christina: Agreed. But, but, but I also understand that that would be like [01:19:00] difficult in, in a lot of regards. Like you could prob you could probably make it work. It is an education. Cause that’s the thing. It’s like you could, there’s a way you could make that work with Ruth, but it would be so much effort that I, that I, that I understand why that’s not like, uh,

[01:19:15] Jeffrey: I wouldn’t want him to prioritize it.

[01:19:16] Brett: the only, the only reason someone might prefer, uh, the Mac App Store is, uh, for updates, uh, for just having one place where you can go to keep everything up to date. But that’s what Mac Updater does, and, and it does it better. And like Mac Updater could do like your audio plugins and everything. Um, so no, I, I do not.

[01:19:39] Brett: If, if something is available off the app store, I will buy it off the app store. That said, um, like NV Ultra will be released on the app store first just because from a monetary perspective, the audience to the, for the app store is far more built in and people, uh, like your average Mac user trust the Mac App [01:20:00] store more than they trust going to a website and putting in their credit card information.

[01:20:04] Christina: See, that’s what I was gonna ask. Like, I was gonna say like, is that, I, that’s I guess what my question was, like, is that still the case? Because I, I, I could have seen that argument a number of years ago, but like at this point, a let’s, we’ve all talked about this over the years, but like, let’s be honest, like the quality in the Mac app store is pretty shit.

[01:20:23] Christina: And, and it’s full of a lot of like, you know,

[01:20:26] Brett: bad.

[01:20:27] Christina: it, it’s, it’s like full of like my first app shit or stuff that hasn’t been updated in years. And then some really good things where the developers have to go around their ass to get to their elbow to make sure that it works correctly because of some of the a p i restrictions and other things.

[01:20:40] Brett: And like when they, it used to be they would do these like featured on the app store content and they, and they would, they would highlight like an app I’d never heard of, and, and it would be a good find. These days they seem to have like these mainstays and they highlight their own products all the time.

[01:20:57] Brett: Um, I can’t remember the last time, like something [01:21:00] like marked. It got highlighted by the App Store.

[01:21:03] Christina: Yeah. And

[01:21:04] Brett: still help reaching out to indie developers, but it seems less so

[01:21:08] Christina: yeah, it seems less so, and I also, those are those things where like, you know, you don’t know, like I wonder how much that even does in terms of bringing people into it. Like right now there’s five ways to customize Word and it’s, you know, tricks about that. And I don’t know who cares about that.

[01:21:23] Brett: Last time, last time Mark got featured on the app store, it resulted in about $500 over my usual monthly sales, which is for, for an indie app like Mark, that’s, that’s a sign, that’s a non-trivial amount of money. Um, it does bring in new users, but in general, like the app store is not my, I, I have no growth on the app store.

[01:21:44] Brett: It’s impossible to find stuff.

[01:21:46] Christina: which I guess that was sort of my thing is like not an it’s, it’s not that it’s non-trivial. I just kind of wonder like, at this point, um, and I know that there have been more of developers who’ve had to leave the Mac App store for various reasons because being there has, has been too much [01:22:00] of a problem, like having to do the work of managing both versions, sandboxing and, and, and, well, it’s not even so much sandboxing, it’s the app store way of sandboxing because, uh, you can still have a sandbox and like secured app, but then what the app store wants you to do goes like another level beyond that.

[01:22:16] Christina: Um, so things like kaleidoscope don’t work, um, and uh, and, and things like that. But like, yeah, at this point I, I understand, I guess people doing it, but I wonder how much even modern Mac, like newbie, like Mac users, I, I, I guess there’s like, obviously with iOS it makes sense. That’s the only place you can go in.

[01:22:38] Christina: The app store is good, but I. I wonder, I wonder how

[01:22:42] Brett: in, so

[01:22:43] Christina: right. But I wonder like how much people, you know, on like the, you know, the, the Normies are really actually even going to the app store. Um, I don’t know.

[01:22:54] Brett: Set, set up is my largest source of monthly income now. Um, [01:23:00] yeah. Which I mean, like the sales have marked, have declined over time and the only reason set is the largest now setup. Hasn’t grown for a couple years. Uh, my income from it hasn’t. Um, but it states steady and, and it’s monthly recurring income.

[01:23:17] Brett: And that’s worthwhile. Uh, kaleidoscope went subscription.

[01:23:21] Christina: Yeah, it is. It’s gonna be going subscription, uh, with, uh, with the next version. Um,

[01:23:27] Jeffrey: I bought, after I bought my expensive license.

[01:23:29] Brett: And, and the subscription is not gonna be cheap. And I talked to, I talked to Florian about it, um, and they put a lot of thought into it, and I kind of get it because Mark, mark has thousands of users that I and I, I make about a grand a month on it. Um, even though like there are, there’s a, a small army of dedicated users that if I went subscription, I could be making a lot more money and I would have a lot more impetus to continue developing it.

[01:23:59] Brett: [01:24:00] Um, and, and I’m starting to really see the wisdom of, of the subscription, uh, what do you call it? Uh, method,

[01:24:10] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, um, it’s one of those things where like, I instinctively as like a user am annoyed with like the subscription for everything model. I get it. But I also have to like, understand well as an ongoing business concern if you wanna continue updating things and like Kaleidoscope and, and, and for instance, cuz I, I know we both talk to them, but it’s one of those things where this is an application that was always expensive that they took over, that had had three or four previous owners, had not been well maintained in years

[01:24:37] Brett: And they fixed it and made a ton of cool improvements, like really

[01:24:42] Christina: Really useful stuff. But also like, did you know the thing where they were un unbelievably, I think like, like good to the former owner. Like, you know, to people who had licenses before, like they were really good with support and other stuff, but they took this thing that basically even dead and had to do a rewrite.

[01:24:59] Christina: Like I think in a [01:25:00] lot of ways it might have been easier if you had just started from scratch and said, let’s create a diff app that is, has similar features than trying to, to do what they did. And so it was a ton of work. Um, it, it’s an ongoing, you know, price concern. Um, you know, they had the, the Mac app store stuff.

[01:25:15] Christina: The only thing, uh, I helped them with cuz they, they like let me know that it was happening. I helped them a little bit with the edit of their blog

[01:25:21] Brett: Yeah, I, I did too. sent, they sent it out to all the, all the Mac writers. Um, I, uh, that does bring up one way that the App store is, uh, handy though, is subscriptions. Um, I, I, I used to be very much, I used to hate the subscription for everything idea, and it felt like, I felt like I was just constantly signing up for more and more subscriptions.

[01:25:48] Brett: But I’ve gotten used to it. Like I get, I get receipts every month. I can keep track of my expenses. I know how to cancel a subs subscription. Um, most, most places give you a warning before your subs. If it’s a [01:26:00] yearly subs subscription, they’ll let you know in advance before that $99. Comes outta your account.

[01:26:06] Brett: The app store makes it easy to see all of my app store-based subscriptions in one place, and I can just literally go down a list and cancel or renew all in one place rather than having to track down, uh, individual subscriptions that I bought outside of the app store. So that is a benefit to subscribing to apps through the app store.

[01:26:28] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, that, that’s for sure. And that’s honestly what Apple is pushing on people. Like they want everybody to go subscription. Like, uh, particularly, uh, I mean I, I, I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think Apple cares that much about the Mac App Store, but it’s particularly one of those things that they’re trying to push everybody towards on, uh, iOS is, you know, first when in app purchase and now it’s like they want everything to be a subscription.

[01:26:50] Christina: Um, cuz like, let’s be honest, that’s where Apple gets their money, uh, which is fine.

[01:26:55] Brett: we, we, Fletcher and I both at the time, we started talking about how [01:27:00] we were gonna price NV Ultra. Um, both of us kind of were, we didn’t love the idea of a subscription, but the more we talked about it, the more it, it just made sense as a model. That’s the word I was looking for. A model subscription model.

[01:27:14] Brett: Um, and it’s actually like, there are a lot of benefits to it, partly because it’s so compatible with the app store and, um, it’s the only way in the app store you can offer a free trial is if you have subscriptions in, in app purchases. Um, so, but I, I’m, I’m on board. I’ve, I’ve really come around on the subscription thing.

[01:27:35] Christina: Yeah. I, I’ve come around on it in the sense that like, for apps that I care about and that I wanna do, where I get annoyed is if it’s an app that I don’t even know. It’s like I’m, it’s like I’m gonna use this twice a year. Like, I don’t wanna, I, I don’t

[01:27:46] Brett: you sign up for the one month subscription and then try to remember to

[01:27:50] Christina: try to remember to cancel Exactly. Or try to find another alternative or whatnot.

[01:27:54] Christina: Right. Like, that’s where I think it’s hard for subscriptions to work. Like I think that if it’s gonna be something that you use ongoingly, I think. [01:28:00] Like on an ongoing concern. I think it makes sense and I don’t have a problem with it where it’s more, I think, problematic and, and maybe not, at least the way subscriptions work now, aren’t well designed for it, is that if it is like a one off utility, like I only use this a handful of times.

[01:28:16] Brett: Wouldn’t it be cool if there was like a pay as you go, like a pay, like you wanna launch the app and you just paid 99 cents to launch it because you’re never gonna launch it again, or like, not, not for another six months. I definitely have apps like that, but I’m like, I might not use this again for a year and, and if I subscribe now, I will forget to, to cancel that subscription.

[01:28:39] Brett: Yeah.

[01:28:40] Jeffrey: Totally.

[01:28:42] Brett: Yep. All right. Yep. We should go.

[01:28:45] Jeffrey: It was a fun one. I gotta get outta here.

[01:28:48] Brett: Yep.

[01:28:49] Jeffrey: Get some sleep. You very good people.

[01:28:51] Brett: some sleep.

[01:28:52] Christina: Get some sleep.

[01:28:54] Outro: The.[01:29:00]