Overtired 279

[00:00:00] Brett: Hey, welcome to overtired. We, we we’re short, we’re short a man we’re short a woman this week, so it’s me, Brett. Turkstra here with Jeff Severns Gunzel uh, hi. Hi. Hi,

[00:00:16] Jeff. We, we are, we’re lacking Christina. She’s she’s going through some transitions at work and she needed a week. Uh, without overtired, I guess, I guess this show was just the, the one thing too much in her week.

[00:00:34] Jeff: I will just say I’m new here, but Christina, I’m a see today.

[00:00:39] Brett: We all will. It’s just you and me left to fend for ourselves. It’s like a.

[00:00:45] Jeff: to systematic.

[00:00:50] Brett: Oh, you know, I, stopped, I stopped doing systematic. I put it on hiatus and then decided it was, it was gone because it took so much [00:01:00] effort to schedule gas plan, interview questions, uh, execute, interview questions, edit.

[00:01:07] Jeff: to ask you a question about systematic, um, as, as the final guest on that podcast, why did you stop talking so much to developers

[00:01:19] Brett: Um, my interests went elsewhere. Like, uh, well, I mean, I love developers and I talked to a lot of, of my favorite developers. Um, I really wanted systematic to, uh, reach a non-tech audience. I didn’t, it was a tech show, but I wanted it to be about human interest and I wanted to talk more?

[00:01:47] about mental health and queer issues and, uh, just things that weren’t necessarily developer centric.

[00:01:57] It was, that was my vision for the show. [00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Jeff: But what was interesting is you, you made a hard switch into those topics rather than, you know, entering them through, uh, the, you know, broad and endless and diverse developer community. It seemed like you just want to, I, as a listener, cause we weren’t, we weren’t friends yet. Um, as a listener, I was like, wow, he must have just really needed to get away from talking about being developer, a developer or talking to developers.

[00:02:25] Brett: I don’t know at what point in the Pantheon you entered, but from the very beginning, systematic had organic farmers and actors and, and a lot of non-developer people.

[00:02:40] Jeff: Yeah. Well, let me look at my, um, updated overcast app. I’m going to actually look back and tell you how this is such a great app, by the way. I’m just going to say that. Um, but we’ll keep, we’ll keep talking. So I’m okay. So here’s, cause here’s why I ask is I came on, it must’ve been 2013 [00:03:00] that I started listening to systematic, I think.

[00:03:03] Um, and for me that was a Renaissance period in how I used my computer. I was returning to ways in which I had loved to use my computer, um, and making my computer more sort of central to my work and my life. And, and a lot of that was I, I hate the term, but a lot of that was about becoming sort of a power user.

[00:03:25] Right. Um, I don’t love the term, but I totally, I embrace it for the sake of its universality.

[00:03:32] Brett: Sure it’s easily understood.

[00:03:34] Jeff: Yes. And, and I think probably I was listening to, um, the accidental tech podcast, which was fairly young at the time, mostly because I’m just love listening to John Syracuse to talk about, um, the tech and talk about, you know, like the real, like, sort of inner, um, computing business that he, he seems to understand and have a sort of history with the lived [00:04:00] experience of love that stuff.

[00:04:01] And I listened to too, um, oh, oh, Mac power users, I suppose that would have been it. And your name would just come up over and over. Like, I wasn’t listening to you first. I was listening to all these other power users. I think I was listening to Gruber’s show or whatever. Um, and, and your name, who the hell is this Turkstra character.

[00:04:21] And so then I went to your podcast and what I loved about it was that not only. Did I learn about a million apps that would become total staples for me, Scribner’s a great example. Like you had such a great in-depth interview with the creator of Scrivener and I was still kind of inspired just by the story of how it was created.

[00:04:42] And by listening to the two of you talk and what I most loved about listening to developers talk to each other, was that like, so I’m a journalist and I mean, by training, I, don’t not really a journalist anymore, but what I love about being a journalist is letting the language of an unfamiliar world wash [00:05:00] over me and, and kind of pick up the seashells as the tide goes away.

[00:05:05] Right. And, and your podcast when you were talking to developers was so great for that. And I was learning about these different kinds of people doing this work in a way that I could never have imagined. So I loved it when you switched. I loved all the topics I loved the people you were talking to. I enjoyed the conversations, but man, I missed you talking to developers.

[00:05:27] Brett: So, so, okay. So the interview with Keith Blount, uh, happened what year? This was 2013. The very next interview was with a playwright

[00:05:39] Jeff: Oh, no, I know you sprinkled it in, but like, I felt like there was a period with systematic where you just straight stopped talking to developers.

[00:05:47] Brett: then that Merlin man character was next.

[00:05:50] Jeff: Okay. Yeah. I’ve heard of him.

[00:05:51] Brett: I never, it didn’t happen. You’re wrong.

[00:05:55] Jeff: I’m wrong. It wasn’t a sweat. It wasn’t that much of a switch. I feel like you went away and when you came [00:06:00] back, it was much more focused on kind of, it was like a humanities podcast in a good way.

[00:06:05] Brett: That is, that is, that is, that is what I wanted to do with it. Yes.

[00:06:10] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And somewhere in there you did the John Rodrick, uh, open. That was fun. And that was what I loved about that is it was very similar to your, the way you talk to developers. You just, you were kind of breaking down a story into its, into its fundamental parts and, and the person who lived that story was telling it, right.

[00:06:30] Like that’s how the developer interviews felt to me. Cause they were always about like the lived experience of having created this great tool. I’m not lamenting. I’m just, I was just curious the question I’ve always had, maybe some of the listeners have had that question too.

[00:06:44] Brett: So I feel like this dovetails into mental health.

[00:06:48] and to our mental health corner. Like,

[00:06:50] Jeff: Everything dovetails

[00:06:51] Brett: let it go of systematic was a mental health decision for me. So, um, how’s your mental health, Jeff.

[00:06:59] Jeff: Um, it [00:07:00] is, it is very good. I’m I, I, I think I said last week, there’s a sort of a medication transition and like, it seems to be working for me. Um, and. I feel very even, and I feel very able to just kind of attack my work from day to day attack is too strong a word, but because it actually is way too strong a board because what’s nice is, you know, sometimes like you have to just like really, really force yourself to do the work that’s necessary.

[00:07:33] Right. Like I have this thing I need to do. It’s it’s been too long. I’m I’m at, or past the deadline. I got to grind and do this work. Right. That wasn’t how last week felt last week just felt like, yeah, here are these four things that are really important that I really struggled to like really wrap my arms around for too long.

[00:07:53] And I’m just gonna like take them one by one and go through them. And it was one of those weeks where that worked and. [00:08:00] Really, um, it felt great. And I also, I have this thought about mental health and, and, and how are you and that kind of stuff. Right? Like a friend of mine who I haven’t heard from in awhile reached out, said how you doing?

[00:08:14] You know, and I, I answered in terms of kind of similar to what I just did. Like, you know, there’s, there was a sort of diagnosis, confusion. I’ve, I’ve changed some medication. Oh, I’ve got a new therapist, you know, and that friend’s response was so beautiful because it wasn’t direct, but what it, what it made me feel so completely was that’s not really the way to answer, how are you doing, right.

[00:08:41] Like, there is not a wrong way, right? Like it’s a really important part about how I’m doing right. It’s like a critical, critical part about how I’m doing, but it’s only in the terms of symptoms and, and not something more sort of core to who I am. And I haven’t. [00:09:00] I’m trying to digest this. I got this response just yesterday and I’m like, man.

[00:09:03] Yeah, I did respond only in terms of sort of systems and like very like human centered frameworks. Right? Like this is a problem and this is how we’ll fix it. And, and I’m not really sure. I know how to answer the question from a different space.

[00:09:21] Brett: I was going to say like, I don’t, I don’t know what the alternative is either. I’m going to, I’m going to brush you off with a, Hey, I’m fine. Or I’m good. Or I’m going to list out symptoms. I’m going to list out like the very, the, the details of why I am the way I am. I don’t know how else to answer that question.

[00:09:41] Jeff: But in a way, what you just said is like, there’s two ways I can answer this. I can lie to you to get this over with, or I can give you a list of symptoms. Right. And like, it feels like there’s definitely something in there. And I would imagine that for many people, that’s a, probably the. pathway to answering that question is through [00:10:00] religion or a form of spirituality.

[00:10:02] I’m not even sure that’s true for me at this point, but I just like, I like the puzzle of being like, can I, what can I access? And, and what can I sort of, I don’t have to communicate it. Doesn’t have to be turned into words. Like that’s probably why we don’t have an answer. Is that the, like, how am I doing that?

[00:10:19] Can’t be expressed. Can’t be expressed. It’s like something that’s felt right. I don’t know if I’m getting way, way out there and we will land, but it was a thought I had. Ha how has your mental health Brett?

[00:10:32] Brett: Oh man. So I, I went from on the Vyvanse. I went from like, uh, a little bit overwhelmed by it. Like Keith grindy to it. Once again, basically doing nothing. Um,

[00:10:46] I am. I am okay with that. It’s better. It’s better than truly nothing. And it’s not triggering bipolar episodes. And for me, that [00:11:00] is that’s going to be the sweet spot.

[00:11:01] It might not be the most, uh, focus, uh, friendly place emotion, or like mentally, but it is far more productive than like weeks without sleep and, and depression. And if I can remove those from the equation and still have a little bit more focused than usual, that’s that’s, that’s going to be, I’m pretty sure after years of experimentation, I’m pretty sure that’s the best I can hope for.

[00:11:34] Jeff: You, when did you first start taking medications related to mental health and, and not counting like drugs, right. But like stuff that’s prescribed. Well, no seriously. Right? Cause like that’s an

[00:11:48] Brett: Yeah. Yeah, no, I was, I self medicated for a long time with undiagnosed issues, but I started taking meds for bipolar when I was 22.

[00:11:59] Jeff: [00:12:00] Okay.

[00:12:00] Brett: I can’t give you a year, but I can give you an age.

[00:12:03] Jeff: So here’s the questions because for me, I didn’t, I started taking, um, sertraline or Zoloft, um, right at the beginning of the pandemic. I mean, not because of the pandemic, but literally right at the beginning of the pandemic. And that was my first, that was the first time I had any kind of medication prescribed to me for my mental health.

[00:12:22] And, um, now that I’ve gone through kind of a transition recently, I have different medications and I have more and, and I am realizing that I am constantly conscious of the fact that I am, uh, running on medications. And, and I know that that. That’s not a really, like, it’s not really a healthy way to think about it.

[00:12:49] Right. Um, and I do recognize that, like, there’s a F I totally took the opposite view. I would say I’m, I’m working because of medications and not, not like I’m running [00:13:00] on them. Right. It’s like, it’s like, uh, you know, like diabetes, you’re not producing enough of this. So you, you add a little bit of insulin.

[00:13:08] Right. Like, I know that that’s kind of how to think about it, but I’m, I’m still in a phase where every time I pick up the pills to take them, I just feel a little bit like heavy. Cause I’m just like, Oh, I have to do this. Like if I don’t do this act right now, it’s very unpredictable. What will happen? Just because they’re not medications, you can just stop.

[00:13:30] Right. It’s not so much like my mental health, but like, and so I’m curious if you have had phases where you feel that way, where you just feel that, that much, like you kind of, you have these things running through you and they’re, that’s why they’re part of the answer of how are you, right. Or having done it for so long.

[00:13:48] Is it more like you’ve taken a vitamin.

[00:13:51] Brett: So I never had this stigma, uh, this like I’m with, if I’m on medication, I’m not really [00:14:00] me, this idea that, um, that it’s like that it’s, uh, a crutch, we’ll say, um, I never had that stigma. In fact, I like of my own accord came to believe that, uh, I had to be on drugs. And this was like, you know, after years of heroin addiction and years of cocaine abuse and drinking, and like, I didn’t think I could function without something.

[00:14:31] So when I was first prescribed drugs, that actually helped me without intoxicating me. Like that just immediately felt right to me. Like I never had a period where. Like I’ve had periods where I questioned, okay. Is this actually doing its job anymore? I wondered what, what would happen to me right now?

[00:14:53] If I stopped taking this, like, I’ve always had those questions, but I’ve never had that, like that feeling [00:15:00] that I exist. I oh, the current me only exists because of drugs. Like I’ve always considered them just an enhancement, I guess.

[00:15:12] Jeff: Yeah, I guess I wonder why I’m not there as much as I would think I would. Cause I don’t,

[00:15:17] Brett: it sounds like you had a pre-existing stigma, like, uh, some kind of resistance built up.

[00:15:23] Jeff: Yeah, I think, but I had a stigma. I didn’t ha here’s the thing that’s confusing about that to me is like the stigma. I don’t believe the stigma was either. I shouldn’t take medications and if I do, it’s a weakness and it certainly wasn’t something I directed at other people. Like I’ve, I’ve been most people in my life on some kind of medication, and I’ve never thought isn’t that sad that you’re powered by medicine, right?

[00:15:47] Like, or whatever, by medication. And, and yet for me, it clear, it’s clear that there’s some other definition of stigma that I’m operating under. Cause when you first started talking, I thought, well, it’s [00:16:00] really just about relationship with myself. Like I didn’t do drugs for a long time. Um, I mean, I’ve never done hard drugs.

[00:16:06] Like I’ve, I’ve had some edibles and only in the last year. Um, and until then I know drugs, I’m going to surrounded by people using hard drugs, much of my life. Um, but just never did it for whatever weird reason why was not straight at just purely clear. It wasn’t like a ideological thing. It just didn’t happen.

[00:16:26] And so it might in part be that I had internalized some sense of almost purity or something that when I started taking medications, I was glad for it from day one. Right? Like there was never a point where I’m like, oh, it’s so sad that this is what it takes to make me feel good. I was all on board, but something about adding a medication, switching medications recently, I’ve just felt like I am Jeff who walks around with medication in him.

[00:16:59] [00:17:00] And, and I, I want to note that, cause I’d like to, I’d like to note when I don’t feel that way anymore.

[00:17:08] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. It’s got a R I feel for you that’s that’s gotta be a bit of a weight to carry. Um,

[00:17:16] Jeff: And I’m honest about it. Like I’m not, I tell people I’m on medication. Cause I just, I really believe in normalizing it, you know? Like, I mean, look at what I’m doing here. I don’t know who the hell is listening now or in the future. Right. I kids. But, um, but anyway, uh, here’s the transition though? Part of it is that in my house purse.

[00:17:37] Brett: Okay. Wait, I want to tell you about home security and then we’re

[00:17:40] Jeff: yeah. Go, go, Go, go,

[00:17:41] Brett: we’re going to dive into Jeff’s house. Pers

[00:17:46] Sponsor: SimpliSafe

[00:17:46] Brett: what do us news, PC magazine and popular science. They all ranked simply save home security as the best home security of 2021. In fact, us news, just named simply safe. The best home security of [00:18:00] 2022 as well.

[00:18:02] Simply say, protect your whole home around the clock. Every door, window, and room. It’s backed by the best 24 7 professional monitoring in the business. Ready to dispatch police, firefighters, or EMT to your home with a comprehensive set of sensors and cameras, including the all-new wireless outdoor security camera.

[00:18:21] You always know what’s going on inside and outside your home simply safe is less than a dollar a day and you can set it up and around 30 minutes. And it’s always simple to use, simply say protects over a million homes in the United States alone, and your should be one of them. There’s never a long-term contract.

[00:18:40] You can even try it for 60 days. Risk-free to see if you like it. And if you don’t just send it back free of charge, you can customize the perfect system for your home in just a few minutes@simplysafe.com slash overtired. That’s S I M P L I S a F e.com. go, [00:19:00] today and claim a free indoor security camera.

[00:19:02] Plus 20% off with interactive monitoring. go.

[00:19:05] to simply safe.com/overtired.

[00:19:10] The House Purse Revisited

[00:19:10] Brett: I would just like to note that when people hear that read, I did that in one take did not mess up a single line. There were no

[00:19:18] Jeff: yeah, that’s true. That’s true.

[00:19:21] Brett: I could easily be lying. I could easily have thoroughly edited what people just heard, but vouch for me.

[00:19:28] I just did that basically perfectly.

[00:19:31] Jeff: You could have, for example, as one of the hosts of this show, did describe the benefits of simply save through describing services. They do not provide.

[00:19:41] Brett: Yeah, W w we’ll call it aspirational descriptions.

[00:19:46] Jeff: Yeah, man. Yeah. Consider it feature requests. Um,

[00:19:52] Brett: So anyway. Well, okay. Yeah. Let’s Jeff talked about in, I believe it was your first [00:20:00] episode on overtired. You talked about this idea of a house purse, a bag containing everything. Well, okay. Let’s we got a lot of questions about it in discord and on Twitter. Let’s rewind. Tell us what the house verses, and then we’re going to dive into it because people had a lot of questions about what was in it, what the actual bag was, et cetera.

[00:20:23] Jeff: I really appreciate people’s interests. I’m actually trying to locate the bag. Now. There it is. Um, okay. How’s pers, first of all, why are we talking about a house purse? Why is there a guy in Minneapolis, Minnesota who has one and happens to also have a podcast, uh, accessibility to talk about it? The Husky.

[00:20:45] 14 inch supply bag, which you can buy at home Depot or other places is my house purse. So if you want to kind of get it, we’ll put a link in the show notes. We’re want to look at it. Basically what you’re talking about is like picture like a, I’m not exactly a [00:21:00] tote bag, kind of like a, how would you describe this thing?

[00:21:02] It’s like, it’s a bag that is, um, you could probably fit, uh, two gallons of milk in. And, and it has 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 pockets on the outside that you could fit in any one of those, you could fit a water bottle. It’s like, it’s almost like it’s shaped for that. Right. Or a bottle of Pepto-Bismol in my case, which we’ll get to, I had this problem where I was leaving shit all over the house.

[00:21:34] The book I was reading would be upstairs in the bedroom. The journal I had been writing in would be like kicked underneath the couch, downstairs in my office. I’d have my meds. You never have a scissors Parris scissors. Right.

[00:21:48] Brett: That’s such an Minnesota, a scissors. Thank you. Thank you for correcting yourself like the

[00:21:54] Jeff: Yeah, no problem. No problem.

[00:21:57] Brett: what do You call what do you call to scissors though? [00:22:00] Is that a is that a pair of a pair of scissors?

[00:22:03] Jeff: You call that a Queens riddle.

[00:22:08] Brett: All right. Continue.

[00:22:10] Jeff: So I had this problem, which is like, I’m leaving stuff all over. I never have what I want at my side, wherever I’ve settled in and where I’ve settled in would have been my bed, my couch, my office, or the basement where the video games are. And, um, and so I thought, well, I had this Husky tool bag. I wasn’t using it.

[00:22:29] And I’d thought, I’d try it out. Put let’s just like put everything and let it lay out what I think I need find a place for it in the house purse. This is fascinating content. Um, and, uh, and, and test it out. And so I have, now I can proudly say that I’m three or four weeks into this current layout of my house person, I suppose, the best way to give a tour of it is to tell you what’s in it.

[00:22:53] Brett: Yes.

[00:22:54] Jeff: So we’ll just take it external pockets first. Okay. Again, these are about the [00:23:00] size of seeing put a water bottle in them. Okay. Um, What we have is I have my belt in one, because not all my pants require me to wear a belt because one of my medications is causing me to gain weight. So I don’t ever have my belt when I need it.

[00:23:17] Cause I wasn’t wearing it previously. So that goes in one pocket. Okay. Next pocket. I’m just going through it here. We got, oh, every kind of pen and marker you would ever want. Even my, um, my apple pencil for my shattered screened, iPad.

[00:23:34] Brett: does that work?

[00:23:36] Jeff: it doesn’t, it just works to make me sad. Uh, so I got markers, pens, pencils, right?

[00:23:41] Can’t can’t have enough of those. Then I got a water bottle. I got a USB speaker, roughly the size of a can of soda in there for if I want to listen to a podcast. And I don’t feel like, you know, fake. How to make Siri understand me, because apparently we don’t speak the same language and apparently she has no [00:24:00] knowledge of my preferences or habits after almost a decade of being together.

[00:24:04] Brett: It’s your thick Minnesota accent throws her off.

[00:24:07] Jeff: That might be it. Then we’ve got a pocket that just has my wallet. I throw my watch in there when I’m tired of wearing it. It’s got my headphones, my AirPods in it. Right. And it’s where my phone goes. Got another pot packet. We got some Kleenex, tuber, Kleenex, like those tubes, like you put in your, uh, your, uh, your soda carrier and your car.

[00:24:24] God, I feel like this is how many listeners are you going to lose because of the second episode dedicated to the house pers uh, then, and this is important. This is very important. Then I got a roll of gaffers tape. Okay. Not duct tape. Gaffer’s tape. Right. Okay. Brett, why is gaffer’s tape? Great. You seem excited.

[00:24:44] Brett: doesn’t leave residue. It will a fixed to anything without being permanent. It’s easier to cut. It’s less messy. I just, I love Gavin. It costs like three times as much, but I used to [00:25:00] work in the theater department at the university of Minnesota and I fell in love with gaffer’s tape And I, I love duct tape.

[00:25:08] It’s great stuff. But if I want, if I want to be classy, I’m using gaffer’s tape.

[00:25:16] Jeff: And you can go to gaffer power.com/over tired for 15% off your first half inch black roll of

[00:25:22] Brett: Oh man. I just, I got my first eight pack of half-inch rolls for the first time in 2021, I had always only ordered what

[00:25:32] Jeff: you are a gaffer tape person.

[00:25:34] Brett: Yeah.

[00:25:35] Jeff: Okay. So you can understand why someone would want this on a thing. They call their house

[00:25:39] Brett: Yeah.

[00:25:40] Jeff: Yeah. Because you’d never know. And I got two kids, teenagers for God’s sake, you know, you need to tape those guys up sometimes. So the other thing I use this for actually is I label like storage bins and stuff with gaffer tape and a paint marker.

[00:25:53] Thanks for asking. Uh, okay. Now we’re into what my transition was, which is I’ve had to use one of the two [00:26:00] large outside pockets for my meds. I. Uh, I had added one, one thing of meds. And so I’ve got, this is where it looks a little bit like an old man’s like this should be like, basically hung on the back of my Walker.

[00:26:14] Uh, it’s got my prescription pills and then there’s another one that’s just dedicated to Pepto-Bismol because one of these medications gives me heartburn. Oh God. So that’s the outside, right? Like it’s the kind of stuff that like, you would have to get up off the couch and put your book down and I have to go walk and find, or you’d have to ask when your kids they’d grab it for you and they’d Huff and puff.

[00:26:36] And then you lost a little bit of your cache for the next time you need something. Cause they won’t forget that they got you. That Pepto Bismal right

[00:26:44] Brett: Yeah.

[00:26:44] Jeff: inside. I got two books. I’m reading. I got one main book I’m reading and then a book that’s more of a kind of, if I got 10 minutes to read, I pick it up and read it.

[00:26:54] I got a planner. I got a. I got, this is where I’m insane, but it’s only there because I think it’s [00:27:00] funny. I have a flashlight, but I also have a UV flashlight. We’ve had a bit of a, we’ve had a bit of a mouse problem. And the thing about UV flashlights as the packaging told me was that it’s helpful for seeing body fluids.

[00:27:15] And when you have boys, when you have boys, it’s helpful to demonstrate just how much of the pee doesn’t go into the toilet. Okay. Uh, and we have a little bit of a mouse problem here, and now they mostly don’t get anywhere because of our cats, but I’ve used this to kind of discover where some of the mice might be.

[00:27:32] All right. Then I got a big old charge and battery, a lot of different cables. I got a pair of scissors just as I spoke of before. And finally, finally, and tell me, you haven’t been in a situation where you could not find your deodorant and you did not smell good.

[00:27:48] Brett: I have an extra, I have a miniature, it’s like two inches by two inches stick of deodorant that I keep in the car because that’s the place that I always am.

[00:27:58] Jeff: Oh yeah,

[00:27:59] Brett: I [00:28:00] realize I forgot to put on deodorant.

[00:28:02] Jeff: that’s right. So I have a thing, a deodorant. That’s the house person, everybody. Now I’m going to tell you right now, I recognize already from the get, this is an eccentric thing that I have a house purse, but I will tell you I never feel more eccentric and maybe a little bit embarrassed than when I go to bed with my house purse, because it’s kind of like I say goodbye to people, but I’ve got like my work bag and I go upstairs, set it down by the side of the bed, go to sleep.

[00:28:29] My laptop’s in there too.

[00:28:30] Brett: That just seems efficient.

[00:28:32] Jeff: I think it’s brilliant. You know, my in-laws are in town and I, I told them all about the house. I showed them. They were very impressed, very impressed by this idea.

[00:28:40] Brett: it is impressive. Thank you for detailing. I feel like, I feel like that tour of its current contents gives people probably a better idea than any summary description could of what exactly this is and what purpose it serves.

[00:28:55] Jeff: And I’ll say that I’ve never said the inspiration, the inspiration is the mom [00:29:00] purse of the 1980s, those big ass purses that had everything you could ever imagine in them, no matter where you were. That’s that’s what I wanted, but I wanted it at home.

[00:29:09] Brett: Right. And with more pockets. So it didn’t take you five minutes to find the crackers.

[00:29:14] Jeff: Yeah, you can look down on this. You could see everything, nothing closes up, nothing zips up. It’s all visible.

[00:29:20] Brett: Yeah, I love it. Yeah. So, um, I’m I’m uh, I get, I, I had a 65 inch television.

[00:29:31] Jeff: Whoa, that’s a nice

[00:29:32] Brett: Yeah, I, I, this isn’t a segue.

[00:29:34] like we’re talking about houses and we’re talking about stuff. We carry with us. Anyway. I had a 65 inch TV and it was too big for my artistic girlfriend. Um, she, it.

[00:29:49] would visually overwhelm her very easily and, and we could watch like one show in the evening and then.

[00:29:57] I’m just going to disappear to my room, [00:30:00] turn up the lights and I’ll be in the Derrick. I’ll see you tomorrow and not ideal. So I had traded that in for like a 32 inch, uh, TV that we mounted in our relatively small living room. Like 65 inches was too big for this room, but it was the kind of two big that me with my ADHD need for like excessive stimulation I could, I could get into she couldn’t.

[00:30:28] So we compromised, we got a, we got a reasonable sized TV for the size of the room and. I traded my 65 inch TV to my parents for their 55 inch TV. Um, they, they wanted a, they wanted a bigger TV. I said, I’m not going to use this outrageous. So I’ve had this 55 inch TV sitting in my basement for maybe eight months.

[00:30:56] Now. I finally cleaned out enough [00:31:00] space in my basement to set up the TV, uh, set up an area rug. And, uh, I’m using a moon pod. I need a couch, but I’m building a little den where I can go to watch TV on a big screen when I don’t, when I want to stay out of L’s way.

[00:31:19] Jeff: Building a den.

[00:31:20] Brett: Yes. And, and I just ordered a bunch of like, I want us, um, okay.

[00:31:26] I need to get a love seat, but I want a side table with outlets and USB ports, and I need an Ottoman. So I have a place to like kick back and rest my feet. I need a sound system, but here’s the catch is I need it to be a sound system that isn’t so Boomi that you can hear it upstairs.

[00:31:50] Jeff: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s the thing.

[00:31:52] Brett: I want, I want shit to sound good with, without bothering people on other floors of the house.

[00:31:59] Jeff: [00:32:00] Do you have exposed a floor as your ceiling?

[00:32:03] Brett: yes.

[00:32:04] Jeff: So,

[00:32:05] Brett: is. It is a basement basement classic basement.

[00:32:08] Jeff: but that’s good. Cause you can, you can stuff that which will, which will buy you a little bit of extra volume. Uh, and you could, you know, you don’t have to put a whole drywall thing on, you can do whatever you want, but like, you know what the fiberglass fallen on you, but you stuffed that nice and tight.

[00:32:26] Oh man, you’ll be able to get a little more violent unless you’ve got a doorway that’s like a major and, and, and clear feature of this space meant a doorway to the upstairs. You got like some wind, wind and stairs. What’s your situation

[00:32:43] Brett: uh, the stairs come down, you turn left. It’s all open. There’s no walls. Uh, you walk one, the equivalent of one room over and you’re in my den. There’s no wall. There’s no door between me and the stairs.[00:33:00]

[00:33:00] Jeff: and what’s right above you.

[00:33:02] Brett: Uh, let me see the, the living room.

[00:33:06] Jeff: Okay. Yeah, that might be a tough one. Might be able to not a good use of money. But it might make a difference. I’m telling you it made him crazy, distant, different than we refinished our basement. I was amazed.

[00:33:17] Brett: I like I’ve considered building, like, so if I ran the cables out to where I sit, if this room is only ever intended for one person, the speakers don’t have to fill the whole room. The speakers could be directed to the one place I will ever sit in this room and I could build a little surround sound system around this like four foot square space. And then the volume could be low, but I could still get surround with like bass and everything.

[00:33:54] Jeff: I can ask you a cultural question.

[00:33:56] Brett: Okay.

[00:33:57] Jeff: Why are you calling this a den?

[00:33:59] Brett: Because [00:34:00] man-cave really bugs me.

[00:34:01] Jeff: Oh no, I’m I that’s great. Yeah. Kill the man cave forever. Um, but still you went to Dell. What is a den in your life? Did your, was there a den in your house growing

[00:34:14] Brett: I have never had a Denton. This is just what I assumed to Dan was

[00:34:19] Jeff: for me, dens are where your stepdads go to be away from everybody,

[00:34:23] Brett: right. Which is, this is a place I go to

[00:34:25] Jeff: but I guess, yeah.

[00:34:26] And I guess it’s got a T I always my, for me in my, in my life, it was always like, uh, you know, there was a desk and there was like a second office basically. And maybe there was like a reading.

[00:34:36] Brett: Yeah.

[00:34:37] Jeff: All right. All right. What you’ve got here is an entertainment room.

[00:34:41] Brett: Yes, I’m fine. I’m fine with that. But it is a secondary, it is an auxiliary auxiliary entertainment room. It is the

[00:34:51] Jeff: you a question? Do you intend to have a bulletin board made of wine corks?

[00:34:57] Brett: I do not

[00:34:58] Jeff: Okay. So it’s not a game room.[00:35:00]

[00:35:00] Brett: know. And that’s like, there’s There are no arcade machines. There’s no dartboard. There’s no bulletin board.

[00:35:07] Jeff: There are no other means.

[00:35:08] Brett: No other men and no one else will ever be invited into this room. It is split. There is a table with a yarn winder and a sewing machine that are not, they are not part of my entertainment room, but I did think the room to make the best use of the space should be split with ELLs craft needs.

[00:35:31] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Well

[00:35:33] Brett: I doubt those.

[00:35:34] Jeff: dials down the like what people call a man cave. It dials that down

[00:35:40] Brett: It really does. It really.

[00:35:42] Jeff: as nice.

[00:35:43] Brett: It really, it really removes the, the gender specific, uh, uh, stereotypes from the room. I, uh, I will, it’ll probably never serve both purposes at the same time. Um, although her, her [00:36:00] yarn winder, I got it for her for like, I think Christmas or a birthday one year. And it is it’s it’s can crank, but it’s 10 times faster than winding yarn

[00:36:12] Jeff: That sounds

[00:36:13] Brett: into balls on your own.

[00:36:14] Yeah, it’s really cool. It’s almost silent. I actually enjoy watching it work. It’s very

[00:36:19] Jeff: I’m sure.

[00:36:21] Brett: Um, anyway.

[00:36:23] Jeff: Now I’m thinking what you got is kind of a craft room entertainment center.

[00:36:27] Brett: Yeah.

[00:36:28] Jeff: You don’t. Yeah.

[00:36:29] Brett: a crafter attainment center.

[00:36:31] Jeff: Yeah. Well, let me tell you, if you’re looking for a advice on speakers, there are plenty of men online who are happy to tell you both what you might do and what you’re an idiot for thinking you will do.

[00:36:42] Brett: Friend of the show, Victor, a graded Jr. Recommended Samsung Bluetooth speakers. So I didn’t have to run wires everywhere. Uh, that sounded good to me, but I didn’t ask him for a specific link. He just in general said, Samsung, Bluetooth speakers. My [00:37:00] cat is pointing at me right now and I don’t know what he wants.

[00:37:04] Um, I had breakfast with my folks, my breakfast with my folks this morning. We did not talk at all about evolution, which meant that the breakfast lasted a full hour. Um, but the topic of cats came up and then the topic of robotic vacuums. And obviously have you you know, sharp cat.

[00:37:26] Jeff: Yeah. I assume next it’s animals on top of robotic. Uh, what I want to know is what’s after that,

[00:37:34] Brett: that was taxes. Um, but I had the pleasure of showing my mom shark cat for the very first time. And it, it wasn’t, it wasn’t entertaining for me. I’d already had my run was shark cat, but it was delightful to see the look on her face when she realized that,

[00:37:53] sharp cat was a thing

[00:37:55] Jeff: That’s awesome. That’s awesome. It’s nice. When you can not only [00:38:00] manage to avoid the topics that tear you apart, but maybe even bring a little joy.

[00:38:06] Brett: I actually have on our topic list, a guy named Paul . And I’m not sure we’ve ever talked about, I think I mentioned apology before, but he’s a YouTube creator that he does. Uh, he, his name is Paul. And, and apology is a play on apologist apologetics abolished. Apologies. Apologies. No, I’m

[00:38:34] Jeff: didn’t do that in one take.

[00:38:40] Brett: Why can’t I think of the word Apollo it’s apology, like

[00:38:44] Jeff: No it’s apologetics.

[00:38:45] Brett: Thank you, apologetics. Um, and he, basically, his tagline is a former Christian takes a look at the, the claims of Christians and he does it very methodically and calmly. [00:39:00] And most of the time, not even snarky just takes a very, very thorough look at here’s what’s, you know, historically accurate here is what, uh, scholars, both secular and Christian.

[00:39:17] Say about this topic. And, and here is my synopsis and he did a series of responses to a video series on, uh, disproving evolution. And he did responses to it. And it is, I’ve written this four page email to my father, uh, after, after the last blow up after he told me that there was no evidence for evolution.

[00:39:50] Um, and I like I’m, I had a meltdown just because. Blew my mind. Um, I included apology [00:40:00] as videos. Uh, this four-part series in that email because, because of its lack of snarkiness, but you can find plenty of people out.

[00:40:09] there that will contend with creationist views on evolution and shoot them down, but they will do it meanly and they will do it.

[00:40:20] Snarkily and I wanted someone who could calmly present. Here’s what you’re saying. Here’s why evidence shows you to be wrong. And pology is he’s the guy, he’s the guy for this. And, and I became a Patriot supporter after I realized that this was how I wanted to communicate with my father to be fair. I not sent the email and I have not broken the seal of like, we’re just to disagree because if I’m going to send this email, I have to admit that my goal is [00:41:00] to make my father a Christian who believes in evolution. Like I ha I have to

[00:41:06] Jeff: There are some, there are some models for that out there.

[00:41:08] Brett: really there. there.

[00:41:10] Jeff: I’m not sorry that laughter is not laughing at him or your situation. I just, I

[00:41:14] Brett: His,

[00:41:15] Jeff: like,

[00:41:16] Brett: his arguments come from ignorance and he’s making arguments that haven’t changed in a hundred years. And the science of evolution has,

[00:41:26] Jeff: Would you say that the argument has not evolved?

[00:41:29] Brett: I would say absolutely the argument has failed to evolve. Um, and, and I want my dad, my, I consider my dad are very intelligent person, and I want him to at least understand what he’s arguing against because his current arguments come straight from ignorance, like a complete lack of understanding of what evolution actually is.

[00:41:56] And it it’s infuriating and [00:42:00] apology does such a good job of explaining it. Plus, man, I, I can binge apology, uh, videos for hours. Uh, it like my parents like completely on the side, like just his, and he does debates now. Like he’s gotten to be a big enough name that some of the big Christian YouTube burgers will bring him on and have live debates and, and it’s, he’s so respectful and thorough.

[00:42:34] It’s hard not to like the guy. He’s just

[00:42:36] Jeff: That’s cool. It’s nice that someone like that exists.

[00:42:40] Brett: Yeah. it really is.

[00:42:42] Jeff: yeah,

[00:42:44] Brett: Plus he’s so he’s so good at proving he’s right about things. It’s very satisfact, satis satisfying to

[00:42:52] Jeff: I liked that you, I liked that you added that in, it’s sort of like how those discussions with parents can go. You kind of get to a stopping point and you’re like, plus God [00:43:00] dammit. I’m right.

[00:43:00] Brett: Right, Yeah. Yeah, because you don’t have, you don’t have the benefit in the moment of having all the research laid out till like really drive home your point and they get a chance to respond, which is with YouTube video. My favorite YouTube videos are always reaction videos. Um, and I, I

[00:43:21] Jeff: don’t believe half of them and I love them just the

[00:43:24] Brett: I am no problem with reactions to reactions and these videos, they go back and forth between creators and like, I kind of enjoy seeing people’s responses to responses, to responses,

[00:43:37] Jeff: right, right.

[00:43:38] Brett: it’s a conversation and I’m here for it.

[00:43:41] I love it.

[00:43:42] Jeff: Totally. That’s awesome.

[00:43:46] Brett: All right. Your topic, pick a topic.

[00:43:48] Jeff: Okay. I feel like I should pick one

[00:43:51] Brett: Oh, wait, let me do, let me do one more sponsor

[00:43:54] Jeff: Oh yeah. Do it, do

[00:43:55] Brett: and then it’s free reign, whatever you want to do

[00:43:59] Sponsor: Hunter Douglas

[00:43:59] Brett: . [00:44:00] Hey there, who doesn’t want to live well to be perfectly at ease in comfort and style hunter Douglas can help you do just that with their innovative window shade designs, gorgeous fabrics and control system.

[00:44:12] So advanced, they can be scheduled to automatically adjust to their optimal position throughout the day. Perhaps it’s the way the shades diffuse her sunlight to cast a beautiful glow across the room, or being able to enjoy the view outside the window while protecting your privacy inside. Maybe it’s the superior insulation that shades.

[00:44:34] Keeping a warmer in winter cooler in summer and lowering utility bills, or is it simply that Goldilocks moment when you walk into a room and everything about it.

[00:44:44] just looks and feels right? When you tap into hunter Douglas is power view technology. Your shades can be set to automatically repositioned for the perfect balance of light privacy and insulation morning, noon, and night.

[00:44:59] [00:45:00] So live beautifully with hunter Douglas, enjoying greater convenience, enhanced style and increased comfort in your home throughout the day. Visit hunter douglas.com/overtired today for your free style gets smarter design guide with fresh takes creative ideas and smart solutions for dressing your windows.

[00:45:20] That’s hunter douglas.com/overtired for your free design guide. Check it out.

[00:45:28] Bonnie Prince

[00:45:28] Brett: All right,

[00:45:29] Jeff: One take Johnny.

[00:45:30] Brett: man, I’m killing it today.

[00:45:34] Jeff: One of my favorite albums is this album, uh, with the band tortoise and, and the singer will Oldham or Bonnie prince Billy.

[00:45:44] Brett: Oh, wait, wait, whoa. This is news to me. I love Bonnie prince Billy, but

[00:45:49] Jeff: Oh, you do? Oh my God. I’m a, I’m a huge,

[00:45:51] Brett: He I’m a huge fan, but I never heard of tortoise.

[00:45:54] Jeff: Okay. So tortoise is a Chicago band instrumental. Um, [00:46:00] first album came out in the, like, I think it was early nineties, maybe mid, probably mid nineties.

[00:46:08] And it was like, I don’t know if you were more like into hardcore and serious punk rock in those days. I think, but for me, they were, they were the beginning of the emergence of a kind of. More humanistic mathy indie rock. So it wasn’t just like hard edges mathy, which I like just fine. It was just, it could be pretty and, and there was no singer, so it meant you didn’t have to deal with email lyrics.

[00:46:35] Anyway, they, they were a fascinatingly interesting band, a couple bass players. It was a very bass heavy sound for the first couple of albums. They added vibraphone. Uh, then it was some synthesizers. Anyway, they make beautiful music and, and, and interesting and innovative music as an instrumental group.

[00:46:57] And at one point they, [00:47:00] um, joined up with will Oldham or Bonnie Billy, and, and made a cover album that I’m pretty sure is not streaming on all the surf services, but it has a cover of, uh, Daniel by, um, set out in John Daniel, uh, thunder road by Bruce Springsteen. Um, I think they do a misfit song and they’re like five or six songs, but the cover of thunder road is one of the most exhilarating examples of a re-interpretation of a song while still being true to its spirit that I have ever heard.

[00:47:41] And, and the one take Johnny part of this is that, uh, a friend of mine was in the studio and will Oldham was doing his vocal tracks. And I was blown away to learn that a bunch of his tracks on that album are just one take. And, and that generally that’s kinda how he rolls. [00:48:00] And I find that really wonderful, um, and sort of mesmerizing and makes his albums a little more mesmerizing to me because he has just such beautiful phrasing and he can be really raw and rough in his beauty.

[00:48:17] Uh, But to, to realize that that’s not contrived in the way that it maybe would have been, if he had kind of decided on that raw and rough. Right. So anyway, if anybody doesn’t listen to, we’ll old them out there. Um, look for him as will Oldham. He made records as palace, as palace brothers, but most of his work and the work that I highly recommend is as Bonnie prince Billy and it’s it’s hit or miss, like he puts a lot of music out when he hits.

[00:48:47] It’s just wonderful.

[00:48:48] Brett: amazing. So

[00:48:50] I, I gotta, I gotta throw this out there. We talked last week about my musical tastes and how they Lee and I called it [00:49:00] darkness. Um, how I lean towards darkness and, uh, Christina didn’t love that. And I actually edited, edited out the part where I said Taylor swift was like, she had rich girl problems.

[00:49:16] Jeff: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:16] Brett: Because that wasn’t, that, wasn’t what I was trying to say. What I realized this week in, in like really considering that was, I need neurodiversity.

[00:49:30] Jeff: Mm.

[00:49:30] Brett: need my artists to, to suffer from depression or ADHD or bipolar I need or autism. I need them to come from a place that is not normal. Uh, normal music bores me, uh, or even, or even makes me feel bad.

[00:49:56] But something like Bonnie prince, Billy, where he is [00:50:00] absolutely clearly coming from a place of depression and possibly bipolar, like I don’t need to diagnose him. I just, I can feel it in his lyrics and in his song. Um, like I discovered him because of Johnny Cassius cover of, I see

[00:50:17] Jeff: Oh, I see a darkness. Yeah.

[00:50:19] Brett: which is insane.

[00:50:20] Like Cassius cover was insanely good. And then Bonnie prince Billy’s original was insanely good. And then Bonnie prince Billy Bree made the song.

[00:50:30] with a happy beat. You ever hear

[00:50:31] Jeff: Oh yeah.

[00:50:32] Brett: Oh my God. It’s so good.

[00:50:35] Jeff: one of the things he does, that’s wonderful as a fan is he reinterprets his own music pretty frequently. And to have made, I see a darkness, which is a beautiful song about what he is calling darkness. Right. Um, to have redefined that and made it a sort of joyful song is like the most beautiful thing.

[00:50:55] And it’s just as true of a song. Right? Like that’s what I find really [00:51:00] beautiful about that

[00:51:00] Brett: it is, it is absolutely a bipolar song.

[00:51:04] Jeff: Um,

[00:51:04] Brett: and I don’t mean you have to be diagnosed

[00:51:07] Jeff: no, I get it.

[00:51:08] Brett: it, but it, it, it.

[00:51:10] taps into both this manic feeling of euphoria and the depressive state of hopelessness. And both of those exist in this song. It

[00:51:20] Jeff: Yeah, there’s a great, I’m going to pull up the lyrics cause there’s just a great line that you’re making me think of. Um, and I think I know it well enough, but I don’t want to get it wrong because it’s not my lyrics.

[00:51:33] Brett: I’m going to give you a sec because there are so many lines in that song that just give me like shivers tingles.

[00:51:40] Jeff: I’m going to read it. It’s, it’s a beautiful song. So he starts with the song starts with, well, you’re my friend. And can you see many times we’ve been out drinking many times, we’ve shared our thoughts, but did you ever notice the kind of thoughts I got the way, you know, I have a love, a love for everyone.

[00:51:55] I know. And you know, I have the drive to live. I won’t let go, but you can [00:52:00] see its opposition comes rising up sometimes that it’s dreadful imposition. Comes blacking in my mind and that I see a darkness and, and it’s just like, and I love this line. Well, I hope that someday buddy, we have peace in our lives together or apart, alone, or with our wives.

[00:52:18] And we can stop our whoring and pull the smiles inside and light it up forever and never go to sleep. My best unburied, unbeaten brother, this isn’t all I see.

[00:52:31] Brett: I think, oh

[00:52:32] Jeff: I also see a darkness. Oh, just beautiful stuff. You know, there’s a funny story by the way, the lyrics to this credited to Johnny Cash online. Um, there’s a funny story about that.

[00:52:43] Where I, as I recall, will Oldham them, got the call saying, Hey, you know, Johnny Cash wants to record this song. You know, we’d love to have you do something on the song. Do you play piano? And he didn’t play piano pretty said yes. Cause he felt like that was maybe going to be the only way he could participate.

[00:52:58] And he wanted to make

[00:52:59] Brett: [00:53:00] did backup vocals too.

[00:53:01] Jeff: He did.

[00:53:02] Brett: that’s what’s, that’s, what’s amazing about American songs by Johnny Cash is how many of the original artists did.

[00:53:09] backup vocals on their own songs?

[00:53:11] Jeff: Yeah, that was an incredible run of albums, really, truly. Ah, okay. So I have a good transition from this actually I’m, I’m only gonna pick my, um, pop culture, uh, topic, because I feel like one, I should represent pop culture without Christina here. Um, and to my other two topics, I think it will be fun with all three of us.

[00:53:32] Um, so I just wanna, I just want to point to the loss of Taylor Hawkins, the drummer of the foo fighters, who was found dead in his hotel room, uh, last night, but I know this doesn’t come out for a bit. Um, and, uh, for people who. Aren’t familiar with Taylor Hawkins, uh, or the foo fighters. I’m sure you’re familiar with the foo fighters.

[00:53:55] You know, he’s, he’s a drummer who joined that band, I think almost 20, 25 [00:54:00] years ago. Um, at a time when it wasn’t really clear that Dave Grohl, the drummer of Nirvana, the song main songwriter and singer and the foo fighters there wasn’t I think that the previous drummer was having a little bit of a hard time making Dave girl happy because it’s probably kind of hard to make Dave girl happy.

[00:54:17] Cause he has such a specific narrow way of playing and he played drums on his early albums. And so when it came time for a different drummer to record, it was just a big mess and the guy got let go. But in that period of time, Taylor Hawkins, who had been playing for Alana’s Morissette, uh, was someone who Dave girl had met.

[00:54:37] They, they had really hit it off. And, uh, and Dave girl just decided, I’m gonna try to get this guy in the band and. He invite them into the band. And it’s been, I think like 25 years there is, um, these two are like separated at birth type, uh, relationship. I am not a huge foo fighters fan. I absolutely love the first album.

[00:54:56] I love the album, the color and the shape. I think it’s called as the [00:55:00] blue cover with spheres on it. Um, I don’t much like anything else. Uh it’s it’s a little too, uh, Poppy for me, like kind of just in a way that doesn’t, I don’t respond to. Um, but I really, really respect that band as an institution. I really love the way Dave Grohl has just made a career of kind of like honoring his roots and the people that inspire him.

[00:55:26] Um, and I want to note the loss of Taylor Hawkins for a couple of reasons. One is that he almost died once before of a heroin overdose and was in a coma. And Dave Grohl wrote, I think, not just a song with most of an album about him and about waiting at his hospital bed for him to hopefully live. Um, and so you already have.

[00:55:49] This kind of story of this friendship and this near loss and, and how, how painful that was for the one who wasn’t in a coma. [00:56:00] Um, and if you are in any way of foo fighters fan, or even just kind of like a passive fan, like Higham, there are just like endless YouTube videos of these two doing interviews together.

[00:56:09] It seems like Dave Grohl never appears without Taylor Hawkins at his side. And, and they are always joking with each other and very light with each other. They’re always together like always all these situations where if it were any other celebrity, similar to Dave Grohl, you’d just be looking at Dave Grohl, but he, if he’s on 60 minutes, Taylor Hawkins is next to him.

[00:56:29] He’s got a band of like six people, but Taylor Hawkins is always the one that’s next to him. And you got the sense that he kept him close, especially after that overdose. Um, And so the fact that he’s found dead in a hotel room is just like it’s devastating. And for me, it really, it really showed me that I was more of a fan of their friendship than I was up the music.

[00:56:52] Um, and, and I think that’s kind of interesting. And then it made me realize also that like in a similar way, [00:57:00] I was more of a fan of their very earnest and nods towards pop music history than I was of their own brand of earnest pop music. And, and I, I, I liked to kind of smiled, realizing what an interesting little flip that is, um, because I’m really not attracted to the music much at all.

[00:57:19] Uh, so anyway, rest in peace, Taylor Hawkins, he had a wife and children and, and, um, Dave Grohl is just someone that like, if you’re our age, you’ve grown up with them, right. Like, so I can, I can, you know, allow, it’s easy for me to allow myself to feel, uh, uh, some grief on his behalf.

[00:57:38] Brett: Yeah,

[00:57:38] Jeff: That’s it.

[00:57:39] Brett: th the foo fighters do nothing for me as a band, but I have a great admiration for Dave Grohl. I will admit that I am not aware of Taylor Hawkins, and I’ve never noticed Taylor Hawkins. And now I’m going to have to go back and, and see. [00:58:00] And see this dynamic you’re talking about.

[00:58:02] Jeff: I put a link in the show notes of an interview with the two of them. I will say that he is not the kind of person that I would naturally be drawn towards. Like he is, what’s funny about him and Dave Grohl. He’s like Dave girls' little brother, um, who didn’t have quite the same, like awesome kind of cultural experience.

[00:58:19] Right. And he, I mean, he’s a dude that like most of the. You can see them like shirtless with like swim trunks. And flip-flops like, he’s a total like Southern California beach dude in every way. And he embraces it. Right. And so, and he doesn’t seem, he didn’t seem like, you know, very intellectual, like, you know, he was very dedicated to a very narrow band of sort of pop music.

[00:58:43] He, he, he loved it. The Brittany Spears quote, which I think may be, is brought up in the interview. I linked to, there was a point where Britney Spears said something like, um, writing, writing a Radiohead album. Isn’t hard writing a song that everybody loves. That’s hard. [00:59:00] And, and, and Taylor and Taylor Hawkins, regardless that quote is like, that’s exactly right, man.

[00:59:07] You know,

[00:59:07] Brett: I really, I do love that.

[00:59:10] Jeff: It’s a, it is a great quote anyway, like it’s such a weird, I guess I’m just realizing that’s another level of why do I, why was I drawn towards this guy and this friendship? Because he’s also somewhere I’m like, man, no, thanks. Like, I don’t need to hang out with this guy, but rest in peace, it’s really sad.

[00:59:27] And it’s sad. How much of that, um, era of our sort of shared music culture has been, uh, you know, sort of the threads have been undone by, by, you know, drug, overdose and suicides.

[00:59:43] Brett: Yeah.

[00:59:44] Jeff: So I see you mark Lanigan, mark Lanigan, and rest in peace. Anyway.

[00:59:49] Brett: in our pre-show we thought this might be a short episode without Christina we’re we’re at an hour right now. And you said you had a hard out, do you, [01:00:00] do you have time for a quick wrap attitude or are we

[01:00:03] Jeff: I want to do a quick, I want to do a quick grab to, to, cause I, I just love this. I love going out on this note.

[01:00:09] Brett: All right. For those who miss last week, gratitude with a hard G. Is our chance to highlight developers and usually in the apps that we find, especially amazing this week. So Jeff, what is your gratitude list for this week?

[01:00:29] Jeff: So it’s, it’s one developer and, um, her name is Molly white. Um, I saw her, I found her because of a link on hacker news this last week, which is, I don’t know what I do with that. Hacker news is such a wonderful, curated list of stuff every day. Um, she had actually created a really great sort of conversation in a web page where she put the text of a New York times article.

[01:00:57] That was basically in her words, a [01:01:00] sort of thinly veiled advertisement for certain, certain cryptocurrency companies. And she made it so that. People who who know that field well, could comment on it and annotate it. And it ends up just being this like intensely, heavily annotated version of this New York times article by, I think around like 12 different people.

[01:01:22] Anyway, I’ll put a link to that, but that’s not why I’m, I’m bringing her up. Um, have you heard the term web three?

[01:01:28] Brett: Yes

[01:01:29] Jeff: Okay. So I don’t know how, but I had

[01:01:32] Brett: in, in no way, other than derisively, but Yes.

[01:01:35] Jeff: Yes. So this, I heard it this week because my son and his friend were playing a game. It’s one of my favorites, which is let’s try to come up with a domain that isn’t purchased.

[01:01:44] Right. Like, and one domain they came up with, uh, was just like a landing page for like web three. And they’re like, what is that? And I was like, you know, honestly, I don’t actually know, but it sounds like totally made up bullshit. Uh, and of course, web [01:02:00] three is, is, I mean, would you say it this way is what envelops things like cryptocurrency and NFTs and all of that stuff is that fair?

[01:02:08] Brett: is absolutely what it has come to mean. Yes.

[01:02:11] Jeff: Yes. What did this come to mean? So what Molly white did, um, that I really enjoyed was created a website that is called a web three is going great. And, and she built it using a tool she’d created, um, that was like a static timeline generator. And I’ll put a link to that as well. And it’s, it’s so good because it’s like, it’s like an editorial in its own.

[01:02:40] Right. But it’s a web page. That’s I love the design and it uses her static timeline to basically place articles that. Uh, you know, take pot shots at this whole idea of web three and, and essentially show it to be sort of the incredible, like swamp of scams [01:03:00] that it is. And I thought it was just an amazing way to editorialize on something without actually writing anything.

[01:03:07] And I loved that. She used what I think is a pretty cool tool that she built herself. Um, similarly she wrote a Twitter bot that actually goes after all of the Twitter bots that go after people who are tweeting about having problems with their crypto wallet and things like that. And so anyway, like her, her work is just super interesting.

[01:03:28] Um, I’ll put a link to her main site and some of these tools just like I, what I love about. Hacker news is more often than not the thing that’s posted ends up being a gateway for me into someone’s kind of entire ecosystem. And she was, is one of those people where you go to our website and you’re like, wow, you are doing so much.

[01:03:48] And it all creates this little world of analysis and it’s really inspiring. So Molly white,

[01:03:55] Brett: She is a, a parent, um, I’m checking her homepage. She is a [01:04:00] long-time editor of English Wikipedia under the username guerrilla warfare. Um, former member of the arbitration committee cares deeply about providing free and open access to high quality information. Tim like, uh, seems like, uh, a good egg.

[01:04:20] Jeff: oh man. And there’s an awesome, uh, you can, on her website, she has a page. She created that sort of just tracks her changes and edits in Wikipedia. And that itself is a great, so you could really spend a lot of time with Molly whitener.

[01:04:33] Brett: Nice. All right. Um, if you have a moment, I’ll, I’ll say my, my pick for this week is MailMate,

[01:04:41] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:04:42] Brett: which is okay. There are so many email clients, email clients available for Macco S like you can find they’re all the same to me. I’ll be honest. They all, they look pretty and they do the exact same thing, [01:05:00] but mailman.

[01:05:01] Gets into tagging and nested conditions and smart mailboxes and all kinds of things that these other fancy pretty email clients can’t touch. And if you’re looking for actual power and actual control over your email, MailMate MailMate is where it’s at. I’m not going to go into details. It would be a long show, but go ahead.

[01:05:25] Yeah.

[01:05:26] Jeff: I mean, what I love about MailMate is that, I mean, it’s, it’s one of those tools. That’s when you first look at it and realize just how sort of customizable and extendable it is, it can be overwhelming. It does aesthetically look like the tool of someone who knows more about, um, programming than I do. And yet when I first went into it and I recently started using it again, it also is one of those things where it’s like, I just remember the first time I clicked on the name of somebody.

[01:05:58] Um, and [01:06:00] all of a sudden, I just double clicked on their name for some reason, not for what came. And all of a sudden I was just looking at all the emails from them. If I clicked on the subject, I was looking at just the emails with that subject line. Um, and I find that it has all of these little navigation tricks that just reveal themselves to you almost the way a video game teaches you how to use it,

[01:06:19] Brett: right?

[01:06:20] Yeah. They’re totally intuitive. Like you click something and what you think should happen just happens. It’s very Mac like.

[01:06:29] Jeff: For sure. I mean, especially, I, I often use that example just like I clicked their name and I was looking at everything from them and their, their search is just really nice and fluid. And man, it’s an awesome way to use, to do email.

[01:06:42] Brett: Yeah, and, and it’s, it’s free to try and you can, I pay a monthly subscription, which is totally optional because you can just buy it outright and, and you, and you own it. But if you are a supporter of what they’re doing, you can [01:07:00] choose to pay a subscription fee for it. I chose to pay a subscription fee for it because I am that invested in an MailMate as an email.

[01:07:11] application.

[01:07:11] I love it.

[01:07:12] Jeff: Can we name names here? I’m not sure who the developer is. Uh,

[01:07:17] Brett: run. I don’t know his actual name. The developer goes by free run,

[01:07:22] Jeff: Oh, yeah. Yeah. F R E R O N.

[01:07:24] Brett: but I actually do not know the developer’s real name.

[01:07:30] Jeff: I just always wondered. Is this like a one person shop or what?

[01:07:34] Brett: believe it is. I believe it is one person.

[01:07:38] Jeff: Awesome.

[01:07:39] Brett: But I can’t prove that I can’t prove it.

[01:07:41] Jeff: You knew about one person shops.

[01:07:43] Brett: I do. I’m very, very familiar with the concept. Thanks for, uh, thanks for showing up and, and helping me fill in for Christina’s absence this week.

[01:07:54] Jeff: My pleasure. I look forward to joining you both next week. I’ve already got some topics.

[01:07:59] Brett: Hey [01:08:00] Jeff.

[01:08:01] Jeff: Hmm.

[01:08:01] Brett: Get some sleep.

[01:08:02] Jeff: You could some sleep, you know what? You get some sleep by.