More Mental Health, But With Jay Miller This Time

[00:00:00] Jay: Hey all you cool cats, parakeets, llamas, and alpacas, you’re listening to Overtired. Uh, I am your overtaking host, Jay Miller, and with me are my beautiful co host Jeff Severance Gunsel, and the mad genius of the internet himself, Brett Terpstra.

[00:00:19] Jeff: How did you get ahold of our demographic, uh, report?

[00:00:22] Jay: Oh, I mean, you know, if you listen to one podcast, you listen to all of

[00:00:25] Jeff: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. Hi, Jay.

[00:00:29] Jay: Hey!

[00:00:30] Jeff: And we do not have Christina here today, although we’re committed to doing this exact same guest lineup with Christina sometime down the

[00:00:38] Brett: we will repeat this, um, and apologies to our regular listeners, we took, we took some unintended time off, um, life got in the way, but we also weren’t beholden to any sponsors at the time, so we gave ourselves a break, and, and literally [00:01:00] took a break, so

[00:01:01] Jeff: Which was lovely for me, because I came back from a family trip to Egypt and Kenya, and then had a colonoscopy, and then had oral surgery, and then got sick. And so, it’s awesome to have a break in that context.

[00:01:12] Brett: that sounds, that sounds like it was a much needed break.

[00:01:15] Jay: I was jealous when you said Kenya and Egypt, and then you jumped straight into colonoscopy, and I was like, well,

[00:01:22] Jeff: what? I deliberately scheduled it for the week I got back, because I’m like, I’m gonna be so out of it anyhow that I might as well just hit myself with all the stuff. Um, and I did. Yeah. Great.

[00:01:34] Brett: I haven’t, I, so yesterday I had two root canals and two crowns.

[00:01:39] Jeff: what, yesterday you had two root canals? What’s going on with that?

[00:01:44] Brett: well,

[00:01:44] Jeff: that a thing?

[00:01:46] Brett: yes, apparently so, because it happened to me, um, I had, I had a filling fallout in a back molar and I, I scheduled like, it, it wasn’t hurting me, so the dentist like scheduled me a couple months [00:02:00] out, and in the meantime, decay started happening between the broken filling and the tooth next to it, so I had this like, spot of decay that covered two teeth.

[00:02:10] Brett: And in order to fill it, they would have had to drill into the nerves, which is, I guess, when you do a root canal. And so I had a bunch of scans done. I even got a second opinion because that sounded excessive to me. Um, but they’re like, yep, you’re going to need two root canals and then you’ll have to crown them and it’s going to cost you about five grand.

[00:02:32] Brett: And so, and then, so I went in to have it done and I had a brand new dentist that I had never seen before and he gave me a total of 13 shots of Novocaine and it didn’t take. It didn’t take. He would start drilling and I would scream. Like, it did nothing to me. And I blame a combination of hallucinogens and Vyvanse.[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Jeff: I’m serious, I’ve learned that because I’m a hard one to get to and I finally found a dentist who’s like, well, here’s what I had to do to make it work, he calls it like the, Winer esque it technique, and uh, I think the needle pretty much went through my cheek. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think the needle went through my cheek, literally I think it did, but, but it was the first time it was ever perfect on the second try.

[00:03:20] Brett: I, yeah, it, it did not take, it did not stick. So yesterday I didn’t take any Vyvanse or any of my other medicinal, uh, drugs. And, um, they gave me a, uh, oral sedative that put me in like a semi conscious state.

[00:03:40] Jeff: sedative.

[00:03:42] Brett: Like you, they like, they grounded up and put it under my tongue and like

[00:03:47] Jeff: is this dentist?

[00:03:49] Brett: let it, I let it dissolve.

[00:03:51] Brett: And then I went into this like very woozy trance-like state, and I was like [00:04:00] aware of what they were doing, but none of it hurt. And, and I had like memory loss when I came out of

[00:04:07] Jeff: you, have you yelped this guy? Cause,

[00:04:11] Jay: where you at?

[00:04:12] Jeff: yeah, come on.

[00:04:13] Brett: basically, basically they’re

[00:04:15] Jeff: no sponsors.

[00:04:17] Brett: If, uh, if, uh, if Novocaine doesn’t take, we have to do… It’s basically somewhere in between Novocaine and, like, IV type. Anesthesia, and so it’s like, uh, a midway anesthesia that doesn’t require any needles, which I assume also doesn’t require any special licensing.

[00:04:38] Jeff: Welcome to the dental health corner. Ah, can I just say, can I just say at the end of this, can I say at the end of this, my cousin who lives out in the suburbs, um, I went to visit him for the first time ever and realized he’s in the scary suburbs, like the, like, um, I, I drove by a house first that had like a giant sign that said, um, that said taxidermy outside.

[00:04:59] Jeff: And [00:05:00] apparently sometimes there are bears curing out there. And then next to him was a yard that had recently inflated balloons that are apparently refreshed and like a big sculpture of an, of a green alien and all this stuff. And then I got to his house. And I’m like, what’s the deal with those two? Like, I was hoping they’re, they’re friends or whatever.

[00:05:18] Jeff: He’s like, Oh, they’re totally friends. He’s like, but you know, I was, I, he had two teeth pulled because of an infection in the front of his mouth and he was in so much pain and he was talking to the neighbor with the aliens and the neighbor offered him heroin. And I told him, I said, like, I mean, which makes sense, right?

[00:05:32] Jeff: In a certain way, I guess. I’ve never used heroin, but here’s the thing. The taxidermy guy, it’s rumored, goes out in his backyard with night vision goggles and his AR 15, and in the night, and apparently with a silencer, which I don’t think is a thing for everybody, and shoots deer. And I told my cousin, I’m like, you know, half of our family won’t come to the city, won’t come to Minneapolis anymore, ever since like the uprising and the police decided to just say, fuck all of you.

[00:05:58] Jeff: And I’m like, this [00:06:00] is scary. Like, my neighborhood is not scary. Anyway.

[00:06:04] Jay: I thought it was weird, we just moved cross country, and we moved to like, We’re on the city, like, border between one town and the next, and the next town over, uh, it was interesting when people were like, Oh, hey, you’re moving to the place where it’s illegal to not own a firearm.

[00:06:22] Jeff: Right, right.

[00:06:23] Jay: I had to like, I had to like, pause and think about that for a second.

[00:06:26] Jay: I was like, wait a minute, you said not? Like, yeah, not, you have, you have to be back, like, Open carry permits, like, Happy quinceañera, here’s a Glock, like, I don’t,

[00:06:39] Jeff: Oh, that’s great. Well, um, how’s that going for you?

[00:06:42] Jay: You know, guns aside, I guess, um, You know, it’s, it’s been good. Um, I, I guess for, for some context, I’ve moved to the Atlanta area. Um, my family lives about two hours South of Atlanta. The other half of my family lives, uh, [00:07:00] two hours North of Atlanta. And then like some weird third contingency lives on the Southeast of us.

[00:07:06] Jay: So it’s. It’s kind of nice being close enough to family that like, they can’t just come in when they want to, but they can still show up. Like, they can, you know, call and be like, hey, what are you doing this weekend? Let’s, you know, let’s hang out. Like, that’s been pretty cool. Um,

[00:07:23] Jeff: And you moved into the Atlanta area from where?

[00:07:25] Jay: San Diego.

[00:07:26] Jeff: Whoa, San Diego. Wow.

[00:07:28] Jay: the land, I mean, I paid taxes for no rain and it rained like, For the first three months this year, I knew it was time to go.

[00:07:34] Jeff: Yeah, San Diego, and I haven’t been there since the 90s, but it was like the land of the peacoat back then, like the navy, like, long blue coat.

[00:07:41] Jay: It’s, it still is.

[00:07:42] Jeff: I think I got a peacoat there, actually.

[00:07:44] Jay: I mean, that’s, that’s how I got there was through the Marine Corps. I got stationed there and my wife’s from LA and we were just like, this is nice. We’ll just stay here and do that thing for a little bit.

[00:07:53] Jeff: I love it.

[00:07:54] Jay: But all in all, I mean, the weather’s nice. We have AC for the first time, you know, I feel like people [00:08:00] really underestimate the power of central air, like it’s life changing.

[00:08:05] Jeff: is life

[00:08:06] Jay: My electric bill is probably gonna be life changing too when I get it,

[00:08:09] Jeff: It, yes.

[00:08:10] Jay: it is what it is.

[00:08:11] Brett: I have one window unit to cool the entire house.

[00:08:14] Jeff: Oh man.

[00:08:15] Brett: we, we just don’t have, it would, it would take an entire retrofit to fit central air in here. So we have one window unit in my bedroom that cools the entire house. And it’s not ideal, but in Minnesota, in the summer, it’s a necessity. We survive.

[00:08:34] Jeff: When I was a kid, my dad had a window unit just in his room, and the rest of the house was just like sweltering. And so I’d have to like sneak in there when he wasn’t in there and just like bring a book or something. It’s unfair, dad. Yeah. You could have put one in my room. There’s no reason you couldn’t have done that.

[00:08:51] Mental Health Corner

[00:08:51] Jeff: Anyway. Uh, hi! Let’s do our, so we’ve done Dental Health Corner. Yeah. Uh, that’s a great segue into Mental Health Corner, I can’t think of any other rhymes.[00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Brett: I say we go with

[00:09:01] Jeff: Compartmental Health Corner? Sorry, I’ll just stop. I’ll stop. I’ll stop. It’s dumb.

[00:09:09] Brett: Well guess first. I know Jay has some stuff to talk about.

[00:09:13] Jay’s Mental Health Corner

[00:09:13] Jay: Ah, so there’s kind of like these, these like, two weird feelings, like again, the whole moving cross country, uprooting everything, spending tens of thousands of dollars to go from like, one time zone to another, cause… It sucks if you try to do it any cheaper than that. And then, like, and then still coming out okay has left me with this sense of like, have, did I finally make it?

[00:09:41] Jay: Like, Am I in a position in, like, for the first time in, like, my family’s history where you can sit there and drop a bunch of money at one time and not be worried about what’s going to happen to you? Like, am I going to have to, like, donate plasma for the next year or something like that? And it’s like, I’m [00:10:00] good.

[00:10:01] Jay: And that has been this weird eye opening, like, I’m bougie now, like, I am, I feel the, the middle class crust, like, hitting my skin, but there’s this other side of that, that, you know, I’m sure, I’m sure Brett In all of our fancy tech job glory, we keep hearing about all the AI stuff. And like, I’m not an AI skeptic.

[00:10:28] Jay: I’m also not an AI evangelist. Like,

[00:10:31] Brett: I read your last post on that.

[00:10:33] Jay: yeah, like, I feel this constant tug from my employer to be like, you have to preach the gospel of AI. And I’m just like, I don’t want to do that. So now I’m like struggling with this depression of like everywhere I go, I just keep hearing it screamed in my ear and I’m like, no, I don’t want to listen.

[00:10:51] Jay: I don’t want to listen to like, it’s like, but I also want to protect that level of financial security that I’ve reached [00:11:00] and what that’s brought me is. Uh, my favorite type of depression, uh, which is impulse buying mode, um, I just bought an espresso machine.

[00:11:11] Jeff: Mmm. Mm

[00:11:12] Brett: therapy.

[00:11:12] Jeff: hmm. Well, you work in tech Wait, can I ask you, what’s the context that you are now facing the bougie situation that you’re describing?

[00:11:21] Jay: I mean, it’s, it’s

[00:11:22] Jeff: it a job that suddenly

[00:11:24] Jay: uh, well, I got my, my bonus, um, and then I also had to sell a bunch of stock and that left me with like tens of thousands of dollars left over from the tens of thousands of dollars that I had and was like, whoa, wait, what’s happening? I thought. Everything was going to be miserable.

[00:11:44] Jay: Like, I’m sure the IRS is going to slap me in the face later, but like, I don’t, for the moment, I’m just like, Hey, I can spend a thousand dollars on espresso machine stuff and Hey, I can buy baseball season tickets, you [00:12:00] know, for my favorite baseball team next year. And like, I can do all of this stuff that. As a kid, you’d have been like, Oh, hey, cool. I have a small cafe in my house now with beans from single origin farms from Ethiopia. Like I look in the mirror and I’m like, who is this person? I don’t, I don’t, I don’t recognize you over, you know, the sound of your smugness.

[00:12:24] Brett: Did it work? Did you cure your depression?

[00:12:28] Jay: Um, I have another 200 worth of stuff that I just ordered from Amazon. So, but I need it. The house is empty. I need to fill it. Like it’s, so it’s. It’s just that weird, it’s this very weird state of like, all of this could go away in a heartbeat if I refuse to not preach AI. But at the same time, like, I just don’t want to do it.

[00:12:53] Jay: And like, that’s just the worst feeling ever. But also like, the constant [00:13:00] reminder of how good life is right now. And if you just like shut up, close your eyes, take your medicine and like do the thing you don’t want to do, you could probably ensure that for, you know, a few more years until the next thing comes up that you don’t want to do.

[00:13:16] Brett: When I, when I left AOL Tech, it was because, like, things had gotten, like, it was, it was a very similar predicament. I was being asked to do things that I didn’t really want to do, and my passive income was such that I was making My salary, again, from like apps and, and blog sponsors and things like that.

[00:13:42] Brett: And I thought I could live with half the money and just, you know, do my own thing and not have to, you know, for example, write posts about AI. Um, and it went very poorly for me. I would not recommend, I [00:14:00] would never recommend if you have a cushy corporate gig. You know, don’t sell your soul, but, but

[00:14:09] Jay: would argue I’ve done that already.

[00:14:11] Brett: but also don’t fail.

[00:14:13] Brett: Yeah,

[00:14:14] Jay: Yeah. And that’s kind of the interesting point is I feel like right now I’m mostly just Just verbally echoing, like, look, you, you want me in my element, like, you want me talking about the things that I, like, I’m, I’m building templates for like the, the Microsoft Learn ecosystem for all of the Python stuff and the end result is hopefully we’ll be managing.

[00:14:41] Jay: 20 or 30 different examples using one repo, one code base. We make one update and put in like propagated out to all of our samples. Like this is some cool stuff that I’m doing. And then all of a sudden they’re like, yeah, we need you to present this to the executive leadership team, by the way. Is there any way you can [00:15:00] sprinkle some AI in there?

[00:15:01] Jay: And

[00:15:01] Jeff: Oh, that’s it. That’s the thing, huh? You gotta sprinkle it. You got to sprinkle it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So compulsive spending, but you have the money. Uh, is that what you’re saying or no? Is it like, I’m not trying to be flip about it. I’m,

[00:15:17] Jay: it’s, you know, I’m, I’m a parent. I have a house that we just bought. That’s, you know, it was made in the nineties, which makes, I mean, that doesn’t sound like a long time ago, but apparently all the inspectors think like, Hey, you should probably tuck some money away for when water heaters decide to explode or something.

[00:15:36] Jay: So like, there’s this moment of like. Responsible me, like always cautious of the next time that you’ll have nothing again, is like, you should really be putting all this money away and not touching any of it. And then I look and it’s like, yeah, but I don’t have the right color glasses to go with the other glasses in the cafe area.

[00:15:58] Jay: So like, what, what do [00:16:00] you do?

[00:16:02] Jeff: that’s awesome. So what did you do?

[00:16:04] Jay: Uh, I mean, I bought

[00:16:05] Jeff: got the right, yeah, yeah. You have to come correct. I mean. You’re around people. I don’t, I’ve never around people.

[00:16:12] Jay: and, and to be fair, this is, this is stuff that I’ve looked at and I’ve said, like, I, I, yeah, right, I’m, I’m probably never going to have these things. And now it’s like I have them and I’m like, this is pretty cool. Like I’ve, I’m probably over caffeinated just, I’ve, I’ve had like seven espresso, like double espresso shots in the last, like, two days.

[00:16:32] Jay: It’s, you know, it’s. It’s great and I’m learning a lot and I’m learning about things that I want to learn about. I’ve talked about taking like whiskey sommelier courses and like getting Glencairn, uh, you know, Glencairn glasses and things like that. And I understand that this is like. The utmost privileged stuff like people that I grew up with don’t like they’re like whiskey like like Jack Daniels [00:17:00] is like the Highest level of whiskey you can get for them.

[00:17:03] Jay: Maybe some black label and they’re like, whoa

[00:17:06] Jeff: Southern Comfort?

[00:17:07] Jay: yeah, I mean so like when when you’re able to go and have these experiences when you’re able to go and like do stuff and and there’s really not Anyone in your immediate circle that you can kind of relate to or that you can, you know, talk to about these things and they go, Oh yeah, you know, I’ve totally run into that problem.

[00:17:28] Jay: It feels so bad. Like it’s like one of the shittiest feelings ever where you’re just like, I under, like, I’ve become that person that people looked at and was like, Oh, I hate that guy. And you know, it’s, It’s a weird feeling, but I also understand it’s like I’m just getting the things that I’ve always wanted to get or that I’ve wanted to get for the past few years.

[00:17:50] Jay: So it’s like, wow, I have, do I hate who I’ve become or who I’ve aspired to become? And honestly, I’d like, no, I’m still the same, like [00:18:00] radical, like. You can, you can’t see my love black people like you love black coffee sign, you know, behind me. But like, I still have that, like, I’m going to stand up for people.

[00:18:10] Jay: I’m going to try to get them hired. I’m going to try to elevate their lifestyles, their careers and all that stuff. I’m still that same person. I’m just that person with a nice handbag.

[00:18:19] Jeff: And that’s also the person, you’re also the person you want in that space. And if you can then also, because of that, get things that are beautiful to you, great.

[00:18:29] Jay: yeah,

[00:18:31] Brett: Yeah. No, it’s tough. I, um, I will say that. Like I grew up being very much an activist, being very much an anarchist. And when I started making money, um, I felt very out of place going to rallies. I felt out of place, um, going to activist meetings and I kind of stopped. Like I felt like. Oh, I’m not allowed, like, I’m not allowed to be an [00:19:00] activist anymore.

[00:19:01] Brett: Um, and that’s been, that’s been years that I’ve, I’ve felt that way. I know what you’re talking about.

[00:19:07] Jay: yeah. I mean, I think the, the, Not to prolong the discussion on it, but like one of the big reasons we moved to Atlanta was like, I’m, I’m in a biracial relationship. My daughter is mixed. We grew up in a, you know, she’s grown up to this point in the area that is predominantly white. And, um, you know, And it’s like, that’s, it’s cool.

[00:19:29] Jay: She’s getting a multitude of cultures around her, but she’s not experiencing. Oh, I guess. Oh yeah. For the people who’d never met me. Hi, I’m Jay. I’m black. Um, that, that’s a thing. Some people can’t tell when I talk. Um, so like, I was like, you know, cool. We’re going to Atlanta. There’s like. A ton of black people here.

[00:19:46] Jay: There’s a ton of successful, like, there’s the black culture here is different than any other place in the world, in my opinion. And then we enroll her into like a private preschool and it’s like, I don’t [00:20:00] mean granted that was all because. She wouldn’t be starting school this year in California. So, like, we got there, they’re like, Hey, school started last week, you gotta enroll your kid.

[00:20:10] Jay: By the way, because of her age thing, she’s still in pre K, but it’s too late to sign up for pre K, so she’s gonna miss a year, but we wanted her to get friends. So then it’s like, well, there’s this, like, private school around the corner that you can send her to, and all of her friends will go to the same school for the next ten years, and you’re like, I guess we’re doing that, but in the end, I’m like, okay, great.

[00:20:32] Jay: I’ve just taken her out of this like public school system and away from that culture, uh, in some ways that I, we moved here in part for her to experience.

[00:20:41] Brett: Yeah.

[00:20:42] Jeff: Well, I mean, I also, hearing you talk and thinking about some friends who’ve been in a similar position, I just feel like maybe we’re, this is oversimplifying, maybe we’re entering an era where wealth isn’t just for the assholes. Um, which is kind of nice, right?

[00:20:56] Jay: Nice people can have nice

[00:20:58] Jeff: Nice people can have nice things. Yeah. Cause I [00:21:00] grew up similar way.

[00:21:00] Jeff: Like we did not like grew up in apartments and for the most part. And, um, you know, like tax refund time was when we spent money. Like my mom was just like, it’s coming. And, uh,

[00:21:11] Jay: tax tax free weekends?

[00:21:13] Jeff: And that’s when we would just like spend all the money. And then the rest of the year, it was fairly tight. And I’m also in a situation right now.

[00:21:19] Jeff: I’m not making a bazillion dollars, but I’m definitely making more money than a kid with no high school diploma ever expected he would. Um, And, and have nice machines and have nice things in my house. And I really, I, I just, I relate to that so much. And there’s also a part of me that resonates, something you said resonates where it was like, I actually realized late, I’m like, Oh, we’re not like exactly middle class or like working the middle class anymore, or like somewhere in like middle upper, if you’re talking about class and I have been such a reflexive class person my whole life that it took me a minute to figure that out.

[00:21:54] Jeff: And I was like, Hey, you should examine that. Like you just kind of let yourself kind of float into this [00:22:00] new tax bracket and, uh, and forgot to, um, revise some of your, some of your class reflexes. But anyway, I don’t know if that, I hope that didn’t feel like too far astray from what you’re

[00:22:15] Jay: Nah, I think that hits the nail on the head, you know.

[00:22:19] Jeff: Yeah. And another bit, which I, we talked about after my trip, but like, my wife is like a credit card miles hacker, like a genius. And we ended up in business class, my whole family. And that was like a serious thing. Because like, every time I board a plane, I’m like, these motherfuckers won’t even look me in the eye.

[00:22:35] Jeff: And there I was sitting and I’m like, I’m just gonna look at my champagne glass. And I was like, wow, how quickly I became the other thing. And maybe it’s not quite so binary.

[00:22:44] Jay: Oh, the, the previous Overtired episode where it was like, everyone has experienced business slash first class and I was like, this was me last year, this was me flying to Ireland last year, where they were like, Mr. Miller, would you like a glass of Prosecco? And I was like, I didn’t, I [00:23:00] didn’t tell you what my name was, I appreciate this.

[00:23:07] Jeff: Yes, yes,

[00:23:11] Brett: Okay. Anything else, Jay?

[00:23:13] Jay: No, um, I’m tired of talking about myself now.

[00:23:17] Brett: I understand. I

[00:23:19] Jeff: says the podcaster.

[00:23:22] Jeff’s Mental Health Corner

[00:23:22] Brett: Uh, Jeff, you got a mental health coroner?

[00:23:25] Jeff: Yeah, kind of, um, so I just mentioned I didn’t graduate from high school, and I was, I was two credits short, and I, I went to a really rich high school, um, We’re like, kids drove Mercedes and stuff, and I, I drove my beloved 1984, uh, Cutlass Sierra, Powder Blue, Bad Brain sticker on the back, uh, and, and like, uh, felt really alienated from that culture, because it was an alienating culture, um, and, uh, And so anyway, I didn’t graduate, um, and then I refused to, uh, find my way to the [00:24:00] paperwork, um, worked in a lot of warehouses and dishwashing until a mentor, like, pulled me into a whole new life that led to everything after that.

[00:24:09] Jeff: But anyway, um, My 30th class reunion came up and I’ve, I’ve never gone to one. I don’t keep in touch with almost anybody. I made the mistake early Facebook days of letting some alums in. And then I realized you have to be a cold blooded killer about that. Um, and you have to not worry about the fact that they’re writing you and saying, what the fuck?

[00:24:27] Jeff: I requested it, you know, you’re like, we weren’t friends. I, I do not want you in my world. Um, so I’ve had this like extremely sort of adversarial thing about that school, about my classmates. It’s, and it’s been, uh, something I’ve worked on hard in therapy because I was holding on so much anger. My wife was finally like, this doesn’t make exactly make sense.

[00:24:46] Jeff: Cause you’re happy. You have a great life. Like, why does this thing still like live inside of you? So, so kind of white hot. So I started doing some work in therapy, which resulted in me. Considering my [00:25:00] 30th anniversary when an old friend, my friend, Laura, um, from high school was like, come on, we’ll be each other’s like emotional support people when she like laid out exactly the perfect thing that, and it’s what I’ve done at parties forever, which is, she’s like, we’re going to, we’re going to go to a corner table and we’re going to post up in that corner and we’re not going to mingle.

[00:25:18] Jeff: Uh, we might make trips to the bar, uh, but then we’re going to be back in the corner and then we’re going to just hope for some surprises, some pleasant surprises, couple of people roll up. It feels good. That’s all we need. We go home, hopefully not Retraumatized, . And, uh, and so we did that. We actually recruited one other person into the, into the scheme.

[00:25:36] Jeff: And, and I, I decided to go to this thing. Um, and, uh, when I got there, I had forgotten my ticket. I didn’t have a, a, a, a diploma and I was the only person without a name. Despite paying 60 fucking dollars to go to this thing, and this, this woman who had been a girl when we were in high school who was managing everything, and I remembered but didn’t remember me, she’s looking, Gunsel, Gunsel, Gunsel, doesn’t [00:26:00] remember me, she’s like, I’m so sorry, you know, I’m like, you know what, this is actually perfect.

[00:26:03] Jeff: In my head, I’m like, I’m undocumented here. Like, I don’t have a diploma, I don’t have a ticket, I don’t have a name tag. I don’t look anything like I looked in high school because I had like a baby face with beautiful long hair. Um, and so I am basically like, I realized like there were years ago when I told someone the only way I want to go to my reunion is if I could be invisible and anonymous and sit in a corner and observe, right?

[00:26:23] Jeff: And that’s exactly what happened. I went into a corner. I had no name tag. Nobody recognized me. Um, and I could just take it all in and then I could decide who I wished would be. at the table with me. And, and then my friend Laura would go and summons them. It was her idea. She’s like, who, who should we see?

[00:26:42] Jeff: I’m like, go get Wilcox. So she brings this guy to the table. Or like, there was one guy, I didn’t even know who he was. I’m like, he looks very kind. Let’s bring him to the table. You know, and it was like, it was such an interesting way to do the, Reunion, which was otherwise really hot and people were super drunk and we had committed we’re just gonna sit here and drink San Pellegrino [00:27:00] all night long and sweat and, and bring some people over and that ended up being such a wonderful thing to me and, and the mental health part of this is like, you know, when something is traumatizing, which that school was to me, um, and to my friend and to the person we also pulled in, we all had this in common, um, Trauma, uh, exists in my head and in people I’ve talked to as like frozen pictures, right?

[00:27:25] Jeff: Like, almost like a slideshow of pictures that never change. Um, and, and you’re looking at them and it’s flipping through the slideshow like over and over and over. And what this thing allowed me to do… was have new pictures that just kind of, I could even feel displacing the other pictures. So I had a new picture of myself, um, as like a person who like, despite all of my worry about being like lonely for the rest of my life when I was in high school or like not knowing how to get to the thing I felt like could be true about my life.

[00:27:59] Jeff: [00:28:00] Um, and seeing all the other people that had been making the apparent right decisions that I had not quite made. I just thought, For me, it’s not going to be good. And, um. And it is good. And, and I got to sit there and just be present in that. Like I made a lot of, I did a lot of work on that before I went, like that day.

[00:28:18] Jeff: I’m like, don’t go as the kid that hated these fuckers. Go as the like, man, which is something I still have a hard time applying to myself. Go as like the man who has a family who he loves, who loves him, who has a job that he loves, um, and is, and is appreciated at. And, um, yeah. Just go as that person and stay rooted as that person.

[00:28:38] Jeff: And it worked. And, and afterwards, I just felt things falling away for days afterwards. I felt this like stuff falling away so much so that I was able to go into the Facebook group because I had been very anonymous at this thing. Right. I mean, I had to walk through people I remembered exactly, and I knew probably might’ve been a nice conversation, but I wasn’t there for it.

[00:28:58] Jeff: I couldn’t do it. I had to be back [00:29:00] to the wall, see who comes up. And so, um, afterwards I was like, we had, we’ve lost 10. People in our class, um, a lot of women to cancer, uh, two of my friends to one alcohol related death, one an overdose, um, and I was really struck by that. And so, several days, or a couple days after this thing, I was still thinking about the people who had passed, and how like, this Facebook group for this class was just full of like, we should’ve rolled a J under the…

[00:29:30] Jeff: Fucking bleachers, you know, it’s like, it’s just stupid shit. That was like, wait, we’re adults now. Do you remember that part of how we’ve 30 years has passed? Right. And you’re talking like when you were 18. Um, so I, I decided to like put myself out there and I, I created a post that basically just said like, Hey, I keep thinking about the people we’ve lost.

[00:29:48] Jeff: Um, some of whom are friends, some of whom are people I just would have loved to seen at this reunion. How about we fill this thread with memories about these people, with pictures, maybe you want to address somebody directly, [00:30:00] like, maybe you just want to share a word that means something to you, but not to anybody else.

[00:30:04] Jeff: And I started it by writing my own thing to the mother of a person who’d been a friend in high school who recently died, um, and I wrote directly to her because she was in this. Facebook group. Um, just as a message to her as like a little bit of witness from the shadows. Cause I’ve, I’ve, I’ve known mothers who have lost their children and that is a really, that is a special kind of grieving and loss that transcends almost anything.

[00:30:30] Jeff: And there’s no word for it, right? You have a word for like a woman who’s lost her husband, but you don’t have a word for a mother who’s lost her child. Um, and so I just started with that. And then, man, That stuff just rolled in for, it still is, it’s like two weeks later and people are writing the most beautiful things.

[00:30:46] Jeff: People that I thought of as not very thoughtful are writing the most thoughtful beautiful things, which is on me, right? Like, I didn’t think they were thoughtful. Um, and that too became just like part of like, I was like, I put myself out there. I was hiding in school. I wanted to be invisible, right? Like I hated my [00:31:00] body.

[00:31:00] Jeff: I hated, I hated, uh, my presence. I was a big guy, like tall. And like, I felt like I was like, I had like body image issues that I don’t really understand now when I look back. Like whatever, it’s like, and uh, and so I put myself out there in a way I never wanted to in high school, and like, yeah, this beautiful thing happened.

[00:31:16] Jeff: I’m like, okay, cool. I can sign out now and feel like I did the thing.

[00:31:21] Jay: That feels very reminiscent to, um, you know, I’m, I’m kind of still, I’m, I’m removed enough from high school that it was like, I don’t ever want to see anyone from high school ever again, except for a few people. And it’s, it’s not, it’s more of just like, I don’t want to go back to where I was. when I was that age.

[00:31:44] Jay: And so like you saying, you know, going there and bringing who you are now, not necessarily who you’re not trying to think about who you were back then was kind of interesting. And it makes, it makes me more think about the, the military side. Like, you know, I’m a Marine Corvette. It’s, it’ll [00:32:00] be 10 years this year, this coming month that I got out.

[00:32:05] Jay: And there’s a part of me that’s like, Wow, like, I was brainwashed, you know, 15 years ago. Very different person, very different mindset, and I wonder how many of those people now are, you know, how have they grown? But then also, like, I know… I know of at least three people who aren’t there anymore or who, you know, just due to mental health issues that didn’t get looked at and didn’t, you know, they didn’t talk to somebody.

[00:32:38] Jay: Um, and that’s something that I, you know, I take personally now when I talk to people who are veterans, I ask them, you know, straight up, just how’s your mental health going, um, because I don’t want to lose any more people like that. But I, I just think about high school and the military, both so much emotional, like trauma.

[00:32:59] Jay: can [00:33:00] happen in those settings that I do think it’s hard to want to go back and, you know, do anything that reminds you of those times. But I do think that there might be some value kind of like you’re saying of like, Not looking at it as, this is how I was back then, but more of like, this is who I am now.

[00:33:21] Jay: Which, I mean, of course, someone’s gonna hear me say something that I said when I was stupid and like, oh, now cancel J and like, you know, culture, culture nowadays, some people should be canceled for the things that they did when they were in high school and in the military. Uh, some people were just stupid.

[00:33:35] Jeff: just stupid adolescents without fully developed brains.

[00:33:38] Jay: it’s, it’s definitely hard to, you know, I, I can’t, there are definitely things that I did. I regret now that I think back to now like, oh wow, like I, I do hope no one ever, this isn’t an invitation to start going and digging through those crates. Like, please don’t. Um, but also like, [00:34:00] I think there might be some health in there too.

[00:34:02] Jay: Like some, some healthy, um, benefits to it.

[00:34:07] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:34:07] Brett: Here’s, here’s what’s happened to me. Um, I went to my 20th high school reunion, um, mostly because I could show up in an Audi TT convertible and make everyone feel

[00:34:22] Jeff: Alligator boots?

[00:34:24] Brett: It didn’t, it didn’t matter. No one saw my car. Um, no one asked me like what I was doing, but the weird thing was. When I showed up, the girl who was handing out the nametags knew immediately who I was.

[00:34:37] Brett: And I don’t remember many people from high school. And the whole night, like, girls were asking me to dance, guys were talking to me at the urinal, like jocks that I barely remembered were like, Hey Brett, what you been up to? And, and it was like, I realized that I was not the outcast I portrayed myself as.

[00:34:59] Brett: Like, [00:35:00] I always felt completely alienated, and then I had a dinner more recently with my quote unquote best friends from high school, and immediately fell back into old patterns and immediately realized I didn’t matter to them. Like these were the people that I associated with, these were the people that were my crew, and they didn’t care.

[00:35:26] Brett: How my life was going, they didn’t care. I, I barely got a word in edgewise. They all had a life together without me, and it felt exactly the way I felt all through high school. And it made me realize, holy shit, I was friends with the wrong people the whole time. And the people that I thought hated me actually thought I was great.

[00:35:50] Brett: And the people that I thought were great actually hated me.

[00:35:53] Jeff: did I hit myself?

[00:35:55] Brett: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:35:58] Jeff: I see. I’m the [00:36:00] one.

[00:36:00] Brett: yeah. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I see. I’m the problem. It’s me.

[00:36:04] Jeff: Oh, you did it. Nice job.

[00:36:06] Jay: there’s this, there’s this weird thing that happens where like, maybe it’s just a podcaster problem, I guess. But like my parasocial relationships. That have kind of bloomed into actual relationships, like friendships are way healthier than the like people that I grew up with, like those friendships, like I’m going to give him his flowers since, since he’s on the pod with us, but like chatting with Brett for the first time when I was like this stupid kid that was super into productivity and stuff, but then also wanted to learn how to program and Brett was doing some really cool shit.

[00:36:44] Jay: And I was like, I want to be like that when I grow up. And then, and then like actually like meeting Brett a few, like, was it, was it last year or was it the year before last at MaxTalk?

[00:36:56] Brett: Mac sucked last year. Yeah.

[00:36:58] Jay: Yeah. And it was like this moment where [00:37:00] like, we had talked and like, we had had conversations before, but it felt like it was like.

[00:37:06] Jay: It’s a like 99% parasocial relationship and then just meeting and being like wow He really is as cool as he was like on the tin like it like it was it was is the the actual in print like the in presence was Exactly what I hoped for where that had not been the case for so many people in the past like and and I understand that kind of like you were saying it was I first learned of Brett, I was super like inbox zero productivity, like I want to meet all these people and I met so many of them and I was like, they’re all kind of douchebags.

[00:37:48] Jay: Like, and I mean, granted, some of them are really cool, but there are a lot of them that I was just like, you were nowhere near as cool as I thought you were. And then [00:38:00] like, I met Brett and Brett was just like. What’s up? Nice to meet you. Like, like,

[00:38:05] Jeff: Unpack, Unpack Nowhere Near is cool. Say more about cool, like, break that word down.

[00:38:11] Jay: you, okay,

[00:38:12] Jeff: Kind?

[00:38:14] Jay: this, this is where I, uh, I self promote. Um, I do a show called Conduit. It’s, it’s for, it’s a productivity show for people who hate productivity shows. Um, it, it is. It’s the idea that we all suck at this. We all understand that we suck at this, and we’re just trying to see if we can make it like two weeks at a time.

[00:38:34] Jay: It’s more about accountability, like, hey, did you, you survived the last two weeks. Good job. Let’s, let’s keep it moving. And I think the more, the deeper and deeper I tried to dive into, like, let’s actually be productive. Like, let’s have productive lifestyles. I understood how, like, physically unhealthy that was, how mentally unhealthy that was at times, and then also the people trying [00:39:00] to teach you how to do this, that’s their job.

[00:39:04] Jay: That’s not, like, that’s not, like, they don’t understand. I worked at a help desk and people were like, yeah, you should only check your email, like, once a day, and I’m like, if I do that, I get fired.

[00:39:14] Jeff: Yeah, exactly.

[00:39:15] Jay: So, so being able to, like, have, again, someone like Brett who is like, me building these things is often due to me disregarding some responsibilities, but also, this is where I’m at at the moment and this stuff is really cool and I just want to keep building it, like.

[00:39:37] Jay: I related to that, but then also I was like, okay, where’s, where’s the but, where’s the like, as he says, as he hops into like a Bentley and then drives off, you know, into the distance smoking a cigar or something. And it was like, that part never came. It was still the like, punk rocker, like, let’s, let’s just talk, let’s like nerd out and talk about building stuff, which I [00:40:00] mean, that’s, that’s what made Bunch so cool for me.

[00:40:02] Jay: It was like, This was, this was a thing that like, Hey, I know the person that built this. And then it was like, Hey, what if, what if you did this? And then like three days later, it was like, thanks. You, you threw me into another rabbit hole, but now this feature

[00:40:16] Jeff: Yes, yes, yes,

[00:40:17] Brett: You have, you have both had that

[00:40:19] Jeff: Yeah, we have.

[00:40:22] Jay: It’s, it’s cool seeing features that I’m like, I think I asked for that.

[00:40:26] Jeff: Right, right. Totally. I, my thing, Brett and I have talked about this, maybe even on the podcast with, I went through a similar thing with the productivity people. I didn’t meet a lot of them, but I realized at some point, like, I think you must be dishonest because I’ve never met anybody who. is committed or loves or gets fired up by various productivity tools who then doesn’t fall apart, um, inside of them, uh, every so

[00:40:55] Jay: advocates do you know?

[00:40:58] Jeff: And I, you know, like, cause to me, the [00:41:00] experience of, um, returning or like building systems, which mine always fall apart, it’s like the important thing for me, and this True with my mental health as well, it’s like that I call myself back and, and in the case of like productivity tools, that’s me calling myself back to those systems.

[00:41:19] Jeff: And for me, it’s an indicator of how like healthy I am at that moment. So things really fall apart. But as long as I’m always calling myself back to these tools that I’ve built or some new tool, even if I get lost in it at that time, it’s actually like a really good, really good sign. Although I also have to know that I’m going to quit.

[00:41:38] Jay: We have this goofy thing where like every. Once every quarter we do a systems check because people see productivity on the tin and they’re always like what apps are you using? We’re like, we don’t really want to talk about that stuff, but we, we appease people once every three months. And, uh, one of the things that we’ve done is we always give what we’re doing a [00:42:00] name.

[00:42:00] Jay: And it’s always just something that we make up. And I always use artists that I’m listening to at the moment. Like the first one was like the Silksonic method cause Silksonic had just come out. Then it was like the, the JD, the JD Beck and Domi paradox or something like that. And then like. The Thundercat system, like all this, all this fun stuff.

[00:42:21] Jay: And like, there was something about it because you knew that it was going to change. You knew that you were giving it permission to adapt and you were stating that by just renaming the thing every time. You’re like, yeah, it’s kind of similar to this thing, but like, it’s different because I’m doing this and this and this instead of this.

[00:42:39] Jay: So it’s kind of like this weird jazz break. So that’s why it’s like Thundercat, you know, cause Thundercat does these cool breaks and then I do these cool breaks and like, cool. Like, and, and in the end it’s supposed to be silly.

[00:42:52] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:53] Jay: And I think that’s what, that’s what makes it like, that was the thing that I missed talking to, [00:43:00] you know, the, the business coat types that were just like, it’s always about ROI.

[00:43:05] Jay: It’s all about lifestyle brand. It’s all about, it’s like all of these things. I’m like, I kind of just want to sit down with my espresso machine and like have fun and then look at my notebook and be like, do I have stuff to do today? Yeah. Okay. I guess I better do that

[00:43:17] Jeff: Yeah. Right. Right?

[00:43:19] Brett: I feel like someone needs to ask you what kind of espresso machine you got.

[00:43:23] Jay: Uh, uh, Gaggia Classic Pro X, which is, I

[00:43:27] Jeff: there was gonna be an X. There’s always an

[00:43:29] Jay: yeah, it’s not the, I mean, it’s, it’s a 500 machine, uh, which in the world of espresso, people are like, oh, so you went to Walmart and

[00:43:38] Jeff: Reasonable. Yeah.

[00:43:39] Jay: it’s definitely, the thing I liked about it actually was that it’s, For espresso machines, it’s considered like the hacker’s espresso machine.

[00:43:46] Jay: Like you have people who have like raspberry pies and arduinos attached to it for like temperature control. And like I had to replace springs to change my pressure output and I was like, yeah, this is, this is, this [00:44:00] is the right

[00:44:00] Brett’s Mental Health Corner

[00:44:00] Jeff: Mods. Brett, what’s your mental health corner check in?

[00:44:05] Brett: speaking of, um, productivity people turning out to be as cool as they are in real life, um, I’ve met Berlin Man a couple of times and every time I’ve been blown away by how personable he is. And when I, I recently posted about kind of the CPTSD stuff I was going through and he reached out and called me on the phone and And it was, it was a great conversation and I fucking love Merlin.

[00:44:36] Brett: He’s a, he’s a really good guy. Um, so,

[00:44:40] Jay: scared Merlin.

[00:44:42] Brett: oh yeah?

[00:44:43] Jay: Yeah, we did a, I was in this podcast mentorship thing and they were like, do an episode on someone that you look up to. And I did one about Merlin and like, I messaged him and like relayed FM slack and was like, Hey. I don’t want to be weird, but like, I did this thing, like, [00:45:00] you don’t have to listen to it, it’s cool, but I’ve listened to a lot of your shows in the past, big inspiration, yadda yadda yadda, like, cool.

[00:45:07] Jay: And then I, there was like this moment in like another episode where, um, he and Alex were talking about something and he was like, Should I listen to the thing? And I just, no, I was like, yeah, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve ruined any, uh, that first impression was terrible. I Merlin, if you hear this, I hope that we can, uh, one day be cool.

[00:45:27] Brett: he’s a really good guy. I’m sure he would love you. Um, I have gotten into internal family systems. Have you guys heard of this?

[00:45:37] Jeff: in it now. Yeah. It’s the root of my therapy. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.

[00:45:40] Brett: When I started with my new therapist and I told her about my religious trauma syndrome and, and my complex PTSD, she was like, we’re going to solve this with CBT, like cognitive behavioral therapy.

[00:45:55] Brett: And, and I was like, okay, but I had read that CBT was the [00:46:00] wrong response to religious trauma syndrome. Um, but I didn’t have a better answer for her. And then a couple of people mentioned IFS, uh, Victor.

[00:46:11] Brett: of the show, Victor Agreda, and, um, and my girlfriend had both, uh, pointed me towards IFS. So I bought the book, um, No Bad Parts.

[00:46:23] Jeff: no bad parts.

[00:46:24] Brett: Uh, by the guy who invented, uh, created IFS and I started reading it and immediately I was like, Oh my God, like this, this feels real. And it’s weird because it’s a little bit, the idea is that you have, um, A multitude of parts within you, some of which got frozen in time and are burdened with the idea of protecting you from whatever, at the point they were frozen, whatever they were protecting you from.

[00:46:58] Brett: And it became [00:47:00] immediately obvious that there is a little kid in a three piece suit ready for Easter Sunday church who has a checklist of all the things that are going to send me to hell. And he has been doing his best to stop me from doing things that I grew up believing would send me to hell, but my adult self no longer believes that.

[00:47:23] Brett: My adult self no longer believes it, but every time they come up, this kid tries to take like foreground and And tell me you can’t do this, you’ll burn in hell. Um, so he’s protecting me from death and hell. And, like, he was the first part that I discovered. And, and, like, the idea behind IFS is you, you talk to these parts.

[00:47:48] Brett: And you thank them for their service. And you express gratitude and love and compassion. And you get them to let down their guard. And it seems… Like, it feels [00:48:00] to me, like, very woo, um, like the idea of talking to myself feels ridiculous, um, but I’m willing to try anything at this point, and, um, I honestly believe that IFS taps into you.

[00:48:18] Brett: Like a very, like, like shadows on the wall understanding, a very platonic, what do you call something that’s Plato esque? Platonic? Um, like,

[00:48:31] Jeff: it Plato esque.

[00:48:32] Brett: Plato

[00:48:32] Jeff: No one’s gonna beat you up for that

[00:48:34] Brett: This idea that we have found a way to interact with a neuroscience that we don’t fully understand yet. Um, much like a lot of Freud’s, some of Freud’s, like theories were Proven to be neuroscience.

[00:48:50] Brett: Oh, some of them were proven to be horribly

[00:48:53] Jeff: were proven to be cocaine.

[00:48:54] Brett: right? Um, and like, but like this idea that maybe this [00:49:00] IFS thing taps into something that we don’t understand from a neuroscience standpoint yet. Um, and maybe, maybe it’s a rudimentary way of accessing something a little bit more scientific. But for right now, it feels very real to me, and I’m actually making a lot of progress.

[00:49:21] Brett: So I talked to my therapist about it, and she’s like, Yeah, I’ve done IFS. I, I, I think you might be on the right path. So instead of CBT, we’re going to approach my, my trauma with IFS and, and that feels more productive to me and I’m actually pretty excited about it.

[00:49:41] Jeff: Yeah, and the part of IFS that helped me, which is actually exactly what helped me go to my reunion. Present is this idea, same thing about a part, like there’s a kid back there who is trying to protect himself from these people, um, because I wanted so bad just to [00:50:00] escape so I could start my life and there’s all kinds of other reasons I was protecting myself, but my therapist said something is like become like paradigmatic for me, like I’m always thinking about this, which is like, okay, so can you picture that kid right now?

[00:50:12] Jeff: Right? Like, yeah, I can picture. Is there a way that you can Bring him forward into the future so that he can know, like, you’re safe from that now and whatever. And that idea of taking the parts and identifying them and then just being like, can you bring that one forward is like, that just, it hit me on such a deep level.

[00:50:30] Brett: One of the things when you’re talking to your parts, one of the things you’re supposed to do is ask them how old they are and then tell them how old you are and the parts

[00:50:41] Jeff: nice way to do that.

[00:50:42] Brett: And the parts often act with surprise, like, holy shit, you made it to the age of 45, even though I’m stuck here at like six years

[00:50:51] Jeff: Just so you know, six year old, I’m old as dirt now.

[00:50:53] Brett: Yeah, right? Yeah, no, it’s been interesting. Speaking of high school though, I um, I [00:51:00] posted, I use my Facebook, if I’m gonna post random song lyrics, it’s to Facebook where I, I, it, I don’t know, I have a weird, a weird collection of friends, but I have always friended anyone from my high school who asks. I have always just accepted it, um, because I’ve realized that while I thought I might hate this person or I thought this person hated me, uh, the relationship might’ve been very different than I consciously believe it to have been.

[00:51:32] Brett: Uh, so I posted just the line, not about to see your light. And. The kid, my first day when I moved to Winona, Minnesota, at the age of 12, um, I got pushed to my knees in the gravel by this kid, um, at the Winona Middle School. Uh, between the middle school and the library, he like shoved me down and I felt very… And [00:52:00] I developed a real hatred for this kid, um, who apparently doesn’t remember this incident at all. Um, but when I, when I wrote the line, not about to see your light, he responded with, um, if you want to find hell with me. And I was like, you are the last person that I expected to bond with over Danzig lyrics.

[00:52:20] Brett: Like, I did not expect that. And, and like, in his mind, I think we were always cool. Uh, but in my mind, he was a horrible person who hated me and wanted to hurt me. And, and it’s just this weird… It’s, it’s weird being, being old enough to like look back on that stuff and maybe take it with a grain of salt and not feel as traumatized by it.

[00:52:48] Brett: Anyway,

[00:52:49] Jay: that that, uh, Casablanca quote of like, you know, but I think about you every day and it’s like, Oh, I’m sorry. I don’t think of you at all.

[00:52:58] Brett: I love the, [00:53:00] in, uh, Leonard Cohen’s, um, Chelsea Hotel number two, when he’s like, that’s all I don’t think of you that often. Yeah. Um, anyway, we, we, this has been another mental health episode. We just filled up a full hour,

[00:53:17] Jeff: Dental mental health.

[00:53:18] Brett: dental mental health. Um, do you guys want to do, uh, Graftitude before we wrap up?

[00:53:25] Jay: Sure.

[00:53:27] Grapptitude

[00:53:27] Brett: alright. Um, I’ll kick it off, is that cool? I, I believe I’ve picked this before, but it has been a forefront for me in the last couple weeks. Uh, Curio. Um, I don’t use it daily in my life, but when I have a project, I want to brainstorm and I want like all the tools necessary for brainstorming an idea. And in this case, uh, it does a really good job.[00:54:00]

[00:54:00] Brett: If you save your Curio document to iCloud, you can share it with somebody and it does a really good job of handling stuff. So two people can share a document. Most recently, Elle and I started getting, started talking about getting, uh, partner tattoos, like couple’s tattoos. And, and we started brainstorming like, what would this be?

[00:54:24] Brett: What would be meaningful? What would represent our partnership? What would, what would we not regret? You know, five years down the line and we started brainstorming and. In case you’re curious, what we ultimately decided, and we’re going to wait until some current, uh, upheaval is settled, but I have this brand that I did on my,

[00:54:50] Jeff: see it.

[00:54:51] Jay: It looks like the

[00:54:51] Jeff: That’s okay, nobody can see it. Oh yeah, there we go. Looks like what?

[00:54:54] Jay: It looks like the Debian logo.

[00:54:55] Brett: it does,

[00:54:56] Jeff: It’s a Debian brand.

[00:54:57] Brett: it’s a spiral. I, I like, [00:55:00] I was in the midst of What was undiagnosed manic depression and, um, or I mean, bipolar depression. And, and I didn’t have any way out of it other than pain because I had just gotten out of rehab for the third time. I was clean and I didn’t have the drugs that had always medicated me.

[00:55:22] Brett: Oh my God, this turned back into mental health corner. But I took

[00:55:26] Jay: Skintle Health Corner. I

[00:55:27] Brett: I

[00:55:27] Jeff: oh!

[00:55:28] Brett: I took a coat hanger and twisted it into a spiral, heated it up with a blowtorch, and just jammed it into my arm. And, and it worked. Like, it got me out of my head for a little while. And, and that took a while, but it healed. And to me, this brand on my arm represents…

[00:55:48] Brett: Not only like the depth of despair, but also the healing and the transition out of it. And we talked about all kinds of different tattoos. I had elaborate designs where [00:56:00] a butterfly combined like an E and a B and And, like, none of it really struck home until Elle said, What if I got a white ink tattoo that matched your brand?

[00:56:15] Brett: And I was like, holy shit, that would be, that’s like the most meaningful connection. So I could look at this brand and know that I wasn’t alone in it. And so we’re going to wait on it a bit. We’re going to get to a solid place before we really make a decision on it. But like, that was the end result and all thanks to Curio, my pick of the week.

[00:56:41] Jay: That’s dope. Curio, use that as an ad and then sponsor, sponsor the podcast.

[00:56:46] Jeff: Yeah. Jay, what do you got? Oh, sorry Brad, I

[00:56:51] Brett: No, I was just going to say for anyone who doesn’t know Curio, it’s like, uh, an app where you, you have all these spaces that are like whiteboards and you can [00:57:00] drag images and emails and add text and outlines. And it has mind mapping built in and you can connect all of these things together. You can link between spaces and it has like a complete set of project management tools.

[00:57:13] Brett: So you can add due dates to things and across multiple spaces and then get a list of like all of your to do items. Uh, between these spaces, it’s intensely, it’s extremely, uh, functional, like capable without feeling overwhelming, like you can just start using it. So that’s my, that’s my pitch for

[00:57:35] Jeff: interrupt. And it is not the news app on Setapp

[00:57:37] Brett: No, no, some, they stole that.

[00:57:40] Jay: I knew, I knew I’d see, I was like, wait, is this the thing on setup? And I was like, oh wait, no, it’s different.

[00:57:46] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:57:47] Brett: Okay, Jay, what you got?

[00:57:49] Jay: So has anyone promoted the Arc browser?

[00:57:53] Brett: I don’t, yeah,

[00:57:54] Jeff: Christina raised it.

[00:57:56] Brett: Christina raised it and we had some guests [00:58:00] on at some point that was like a hundred percent into it. Like they had, I think it was Brian. Yeah, I think it was Brian had like, had like ditched all of their browsers for it, but tell us what you love and then I’ll tell you what I think.

[00:58:15] Jay: It is my primary browser. I can’t say that I’ve ditched all other browsers. Like, I work for a company that makes a browser. I kind of have to use that one from time to time. Um, the thing about Arc Browser that I like is, never been the type, like, I have a pinboard account. Stuff gets stored there. I’d never go back to it.

[00:58:38] Jay: Um, that’s just not where things go if I want to retrieve them in the future. That’s just where things go because I decided that they should go in there. It’s like a hall of fame for…

[00:58:49] Brett: a, it’s a way to get them off your mind and feel, and feel like they’re secure. So you can have the whole mind like, mind like water, get things done kind of mentality. Yeah.

[00:58:59] Jay: [00:59:00] exactly. Arc Browser is now the place where like, oh, I’m gonna need this again, like, and that, that’s what made it relevant for me because when I do things like podcasts, I know that there are like three or four things that I open and I, I open them with Bunch But I’m also going back and forth between them as I’m using them.

[00:59:19] Jay: And the thing that, that made Arc Browser kind of stand out was like, for instance, we’re recording this right now in the browser. I have that browser window open. I have the notes side by side, like inside of a single window, which is absolutely like phenomenal. So I can do the same thing with like Discord, where I have You know, the Discord for our, for Conduit, plus our notes, um, unfortunately, I don’t do Zoom through the, well, probably, fortunately, I don’t do Zoom through the browser, so, like, that’s not in there, too, but it could be, um, but I, I do that with, with a lot of things now.

[00:59:52] Jay: Google Meeting meets, like, you know, when people want to do stuff like that. I can, I can be working on a thing and have all of these things [01:00:00] spun up. Um, I did have a second one if, if Arc Browser, like Arc Browser is cool and I wanted to shout it out only because it’s publicly available

[01:00:08] Brett: Yeah. I was going to say, like, it just became like widely publicly available. Give people some description of why they would want to use ARC.

[01:00:17] Jay: Um, Arc, uh, I don’t think it, is it Mac only? Or

[01:00:22] Brett: I don’t know.

[01:00:23] Jay: Yeah, it is. I use it on a Mac, so.

[01:00:26] Jeff: OS 12 and later.

[01:00:27] Jay: Okay, so yeah, it’s a Mac only system. It is a browser that feels like a native experience. It has these really cool ideas of spaces where you can have a space dedicated to different things. Um, I will say, if you have ADHD, that’s not gonna last.

[01:00:43] Jay: You’re just gonna throw stuff, and when one space gets too full, you just open up a new one and just keep going. Um,

[01:00:49] Brett: but at the end of like by default, every 12 hours, um, all these open tabs you have get archived

[01:00:57] Jay: they get

[01:00:57] Jeff: Ooh.

[01:00:58] Brett: when you open it up in the [01:01:00] morning, you, you’re left with your pin tabs, ones that you have consciously said, I’m going to need this again, and everything else just gets shuffled off, out of your way.

[01:01:10] Jay: And, because it has a little command bar, you can actually go back to archived tabs. So if you just start typing, it’s going to be like, yo, you archived this.

[01:01:18] Brett: Yeah. And so command T, instead of command T, uh, just opening a new tab, command T actually brings up a palette where you can easily navigate through all of the options, all of the commands and all of your open tabs.

[01:01:32] Jay: Exactly.

[01:01:33] Jeff: Wow.

[01:01:35] Jay: So, yeah, that was, I mean, I just, like when I started using it, it was kind of like this, like, okay, that’s not going to be supported. It’s still in beta. I’m sure there’s going to be bugs. And like, for some reason, like I just never stopped using it, which to me is like a, I mean, like that was like me and DuckDuckGo, like.

[01:01:54] Jay: Oh, I’m going to try this thing. And then I just never stopped trying it. And to me, that’s [01:02:00] like the indicator of an app that, that has kind of made its way into my system.

[01:02:05] Brett: Totally. Yeah.

[01:02:07] Jeff: That’s awesome.

[01:02:08] Brett: You had it.

[01:02:09] Jeff: just downloaded and signed up.

[01:02:12] Brett: You have a second one? You want to throw in a second one?

[01:02:14] Jay: The other one, only because it’s so weird, um, the Synology DS app, which. Like, I just bought Synology routers, and

[01:02:26] Jeff: Oh, you got the routers.

[01:02:28] Jay: the routers are so good, but the web interface for, you know, all the routing stuff feels very much like its own little ecosystem based on the Synology operating system, which is cool, but then, like, to be able to Look at all this stuff on my two routers that I have.

[01:02:46] Jay: I have the 66, 000 AX and then the 5600 AX thing, um, and I have them in mesh mode, so, uh, when we moved, I was, I moved into an area that has fiber [01:03:00] and like, that was just exciting, but like, The thing that really got me was that you can actually set up a VPN on the router itself, which is great if you want to spoof like your location and have it spoof across all of the devices in the house so that, you know, all of a sudden you’re in Canada and you’re watching Canadian Netflix or whatever.

[01:03:20] Jay: Um, but all of your TVs are doing that, not just your, your laptop, which is super cool. And the fact that it, the app is just so easy to use. It’s so easy to like, if it’s, it’s logical, which I don’t know how many like web interfaces people have gone to for routers, like that’s never the case. It’s like, I know exactly where I’m going.

[01:03:43] Jay: I know exactly how to get there. I create these profiles. I have. An IoT network that was super easy to set up so all of my like home devices are on their own network That’s you know walled off from my computers And like I can do all of these things and not [01:04:00] feel like like I’m hacking into the matrix every time I’m trying to do It it’s like oh, no, this is simple add a new network You know go share this profile to a thing and you’re done

[01:04:10] Brett: Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. Um, I use Archer, uh, routers right now and their web interface is, I would call it passable at best. Um, no, that makes me really curious about switching to Synology routers.

[01:04:28] Jay: and the routers themselves are solid I mean, they’re expensive, but they’re solid.

[01:04:33] Jeff: they are expensive, aren’t they? I’d like to try them. Um, so I, I am, I, I want to talk about, uh, a text editor that I’ve talked about before, which is Sublime Text, um, because I’ve been using it forever and ever and ever, but I actually just, I think that I, I don’t think there are that many people out there who aren’t coders who use text editors primarily for writing [01:05:00] and just straight text and manipulating text and whatever else it is.

[01:05:04] Jeff: And I do a lot of work. I do a lot of like qualitative work where I’m working with like interview transcripts or documents that have been provided to me that I’m supposed to analyze or whatever else. I also obviously take a lot of notes and all that stuff. And I, I was just kind of, so I just went through a period of like incredible.

[01:05:21] Jeff: Productivity, just in the sense that, like, things that have been blocked that I hadn’t been able to work on or finish for a couple of years have just, like, flowed, and what has facilitated that flow in large part is Sublime Text and just the text editor in general, um, because for all the obvious reasons that you both know, like, it’s also just like a lot of markdown, right?

[01:05:41] Jeff: It’s like the amount of time I don’t spend fucking around with totally Um, inexplicable formatting issues or things kind of disappearing in weird ways or whatever it is. I know this is all fundamental text editor markdown stuff, but like, and I’ve been doing this for years and years, but I’ve never been working with so much [01:06:00] text at once.

[01:06:01] Jeff: And I’m realizing just how freeing it is and how rare it is. No one on my team who works with the same kind of qualitative data, whatever, has ever even opened a text editor. Um, and you want so badly to show them, but they just, I’m, I’m the person that has so many little hacks and everyone’s like, Oh God, it’s another fucking Gunsel thing.

[01:06:19] Jeff: They just like shut off. And, and I just want to be like, no, you don’t understand it’s our work. It makes our work so much easier. Um, so anyway, Sublime Text and I, and the thing is, and Brett and I have talked about this so much, it’s like, I love VS code and it is too much of a playground for me, um, and between, and Sublime and its package manager, um, is just.

[01:06:42] Jeff: It’s the perfect thing of like giving me tools and giving me just enough playground. Like it doesn’t let me into the part where you can like climb up that weird thing and then bounce off the thing and then whatever. Like it just keeps me with the swings and, and I’m so grateful for that. Um, so anyway, I’m, I’m talking about text [01:07:00] editors more than anything as Graphitude cause I still go into VS code for things that

[01:07:03] Brett: I really want to know how you tie this back to Fugazi though.

[01:07:07] Jeff: Oh, I, in the show notes, I was like, that was such, it sounded so obnoxious. I decided not to go there, but I was like, Sublime Text is the Fugazi of text editors. And all I meant by that is, um, it’s a thing that has, has remained exactly as simple as it started. Right. And, and there’s like downsides to that with Fugazi and Ian McKay, like that shit got kind of frozen and annoying.

[01:07:27] Jeff: But, um, but the idea is like, Like I was thinking about how Fugazi like always toured with like the most simple stage ever. Like there were like some white lights on the side that were theirs that, that went down on them so that you were never, um, at the mercy of the lighting person and all of their tricks, right?

[01:07:43] Jeff: Like that’s the first thing I thought about with VS Code and Sublime. And again, I love VS Code actually. Um, and then also just like the Fugazi thing of like, the shows are always going to be 5. Like sometimes it feels like you’re getting 5 worth of some of the packages in Sublime Text or whatever, or like.[01:08:00]

[01:08:00] Jeff: It also just feels like super reliable and simple. Um, yeah, it’s like, it’s unchanging, which is not something I value overall in tech or bands, but, uh, because Fugazi was as much like a business model as it was a band. Um, and because they stayed just so kind of like reliable and consistent.

[01:08:17] Brett: But. But. I would say, like Fugazi, every album, if you are a hardcore

[01:08:25] Jeff: album was better and more interesting and more layered than the last.

[01:08:29] Brett: everyone was different. Everyone, every, every time they released an album, it, it illustrated growth, like they weren’t just putting out the same album over and over again.

[01:08:41] Jeff: But the closest they got to VS Code was when they added a second drummer on the last tour.

[01:08:46] Jay: See, when you started bringing in bands, when you mentioned VS Code, I immediately thought, this is like toe. People who are not into math rock are just like, what is going on? But once it clicks, you’re just like, oh, I’m doing this. I was, I [01:09:00] was going to ask you, have you ever, have you ever joined a Vim, Emacs?

[01:09:05] Jay: Like I’m doing, I’m doing things with texts that your, your puny brain can’t comprehend, like comprehend. And like, to me. That’s where text editor love begins, is when you choose a side, light side, dark side. I’m not going to tell you which one it is, but like when you’re like, I just pushed five buttons and I changed this entire text file to do exactly what I want to do.

[01:09:30] Jay: And I’m going to press the period and like, it’s going to do it again. Like there’s a moment there where you’re like, I can, I could launch, I could launch things. Like I could, I could do

[01:09:41] Brett: clearly you’re clearly a vim guy

[01:09:46] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:47] Brett: is immediately apparent. You can’t hide that you’re a vim guy.

[01:09:51] Jeff: A couple of years ago, I went down the Emacs rabbit hole, specifically Doom Emacs, um, because why not add the Doom, uh, like [01:10:00] name and theme to Emacs.

[01:10:01] Jay: of do me, Max.

[01:10:02] Jeff: And it was like, and I was like, Oh no, this is incredible. But also it like, it, it pulled me in so hard. And I realized I was spending so much time, time trying to learn some really fundamental things that like I already knew how to do elsewhere that I was like, okay, you got to stop console.

[01:10:15] Jeff: But I loved it. It appealed to a part of my brain so hard.

[01:10:18] Brett: Yeah.

[01:10:18] Jay: knew that I was married to Vim when I opened up VS code and immediately put it into Vim mode

[01:10:24] Jeff: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

[01:10:25] Brett: guys do, do either of you use Xcode

[01:10:29] Jeff: No.

[01:10:30] Jay: No, I’ve

[01:10:30] Brett: X Xcode in the last year? I think, um, added Vim mode to xcode editing and it.

[01:10:38] Jay: Does it support your local VimRC?

[01:10:40] Brett: No,

[01:10:41] Jay: Oh,

[01:10:42] Jeff: Why?

[01:10:43] Brett: there’s no colon command line, but your basic navigation and insert and substitute and change commands all work. And

[01:10:52] Jay: use colon. How do you, how do you save and quit?

[01:10:57] Jeff: So I do, I have to say, if I’m taking sides, I do take the [01:11:00] vim side. But, um, yeah.

[01:11:02] Brett: I think we can all agree.

[01:11:04] Jeff: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

[01:11:05] Brett: All right. Um, Jay, do you have another 10 minutes?

[01:11:10] Jay: I’ve always got time.

[01:11:11] Brett: Because I am very curious to hear about Living Color from Jeff.

[01:11:16] Jay: Absolutely. Me too, actually.

[01:11:20] Jeff: Okay. So, um, 1987 on the edge of 1988, this band, living Color, all Black Rock Band releases an album called Vivid. Uh, with their single called Cult of Personality. Um, I am in 7th, 8th grade. Uh, I am just starting, I’ve just moved into a new school district that is pretty much all white. I had, I had grown up in a much more sort of mixed environment.

[01:11:50] Jeff: Um, and… I was really alienated. I also liked some bad music because I was in seventh grade. Um, and Cult of Personality comes on. This, this, this song [01:12:00] and video, uh, captured me and captured a lot of America, although I don’t understand exactly why, because it was this, they actually radicalized me with this one song and video and then continued to throughout the songs and the albums.

[01:12:12] Jeff: And so

[01:12:13] Brett: catchy tune that

[01:12:14] Jeff: It was a catchy as hell tune. It was on, it was on like Guitar Hero 3, right? Like, but the, the really incredible thing was that here was a band being, this video was being played on MTV like every 30 minutes. It starts with the words and voice of Malcolm X. It cuts to a Black girl watching television, and then into the song, where they are examining the idea of the cult of personality, and there are actually, there’s lines like, like Mussolini and Kennedy, I’m the cult of personality.

[01:12:46] Jeff: Like Joseph Stalin and Gandhi, I’m the cult of personality, right? Like, that’s some complex shit, right? They’re not… Saying the two are equal, but they’re raising this idea of, like, leaders and what does it mean? And, [01:13:00] and then there are these, there’s this whole line and there’s this line that says, when a leader speaks, a leader dies.

[01:13:05] Jeff: And in the video, when they say a leader speaks, they show MLK’s face. When they say a leader dies, they show a row of white cops. Holding batons, right? Like again, 1988, right? This is not radical for black America, but for white America, extremely radical. Right. And on top of it, they are these incredible musicians.

[01:13:25] Jeff: Like they come from avant, like jazz and like noise rock backgrounds. Um, and so. There are, there’s a guitar solo in that thing that like, I still, it still feels so ahead of its time that I can’t believe people weren’t just like, this is a great song with that fucking guitar solo. Jesus Christ. Right. Um, and so I loved that band.

[01:13:46] Jeff: I saw them open for the Rolling Stones in 1988 and I really went for them. Um, I saw them play with Bad Brains at first Avenue in 1993. Um. By then they had released like three albums of [01:14:00] songs that like, I was radicalized by the second and third album, but the first album, the way that they talked about, um, white America versus black America very explicitly, the way they talked about experiencing racism and like a day to day, there was a song, Funny Vibe, and the lyrics were literally, no, I’m not going to rob you, no, I’m not going to beat you, no, I’m not going to rape you.

[01:14:20] Jeff: Like this was the, these were the lyrics of the song and the video was on MTV and. And like, um, that was like so huge. I wrote them a letter in eighth grade, uh, because I was like so alive with what they were doing. So anyway, um, I kind of can’t believe looking back that that band, um, got away with being as, as radical as they were.

[01:14:42] Jeff: I also am just maddened. By the fact that most people I talk to remember them because Corey Glover, the singer, wore like a bodyglove wetsuit, like Dayglo bodyglove wetsuit, like a shorts version, and like the, you know, sleeveless version, um, when he performed. And like, that’s notable. I mean, that’s a weird move [01:15:00] and, and probably super sweaty, but the fact that that’s what’s remembered is…

[01:15:05] Jeff: It’s really tragic to me. So anyway, I went to see them last night and, and they were, they were opening for the band Extreme, uh, which the connection is there’s two total guitar heroes there, right? This guy, Nuno Bettencourt is like this insane guitarist, but Vernon Reed is like, uh, uh, like a trailblazing, uh, guitarist, right?

[01:15:26] Jeff: Um, And I was like, so bummed because my tickets at Xtreme, they were the ones that said like, more than words. And also the song, Get the Funk Out, as in, if you don’t like what you see here, get the funk out. They were just such a stupid band. Gary Cherone, the singer became like a forgotten singer of Van Halen, uh, between like Sammy Hagar and when David Lee Roth joined the band again.

[01:15:48] Jeff: It’s just like, it’s a yucky history. Um, and, and I, and so I get there, I’m already pissed off that I’ve got to like own an Xtreme ticket. I go there and on the marquee. Which is a big marquee. It says only extreme. [01:16:00] Like, it doesn’t say living color. There’s plenty of room for living color, right? And I’m not, you know, like, forget, I mean, there are all these ways in which they were historic.

[01:16:07] Jeff: Their fucking bass player played on the message by, by Grandmaster Flash on the Furious Five. Like, this band is fucking history, right? Like, Vernon Reed, like, Changed guitar, like, there’s no Rage Against the Machine and Tom Morello without Vernon Reed. Tom Morello would say that, right? Like, they’re just like so important and they’re not on the fucking marquee.

[01:16:26] Jeff: Um.

[01:16:27] Jay: time I’d ever heard of Vernon Reed wasn’t from LivingColor cause. Cult of personality came out before I was born. Um, but it was on BET Jazz,

[01:16:38] Jeff: Wow.

[01:16:39] Jay: which was like, and I think he was doing like a cover of like, Greensleeves. So it’s just like, it’s these, these weird moments of just like, Oh, hey, who’s this?

[01:16:48] Jay: Oh, wow. What other stuff have they done? Whoa.

[01:16:50] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s awesome. And they were so versatile. Like last night, they did a cover of Nothing Compares to [01:17:00] You, and it was as much of a Prince tribute as anything. Um, and, uh, Pac Man. And so the craziest thing though, and then I’ll wrap here, is the cult of personality has this moment where he’s sort of like, suddenly breaks like a more flowing, like vocal style, and they’re just shouting, I’m the Cult.

[01:17:19] Jeff: Of. Per. Son. Nality, right? And he didn’t sing it, but the entire crowd, which is almost all white, um, was literally throwing their hands and singing each one without the band singing, I. Am. The. Cult. And it was like the creepiest fucking thing I’ve ever seen. And… The last thing I’ll say about the weirdness of going to an extreme show where Living Color opens is I was in the merch line.

[01:17:43] Jeff: First, this like, white, or this like white dude passes me with a Jackal shirt, which was like a hair metal band that the dude had like a chainsaw, and then a black dude passes me with an Elvin Jones shirt, and I was like, this is a fucking weird night. Anyway, but just like so many shout [01:18:00] outs to Living Color for educating me and, and giving me like a place for what I, like, helping to affirm all the shit that I felt like was wrong where I was, um, and also just forcing me to think in, like, very complex, dualistic ways as a young kid.

[01:18:16] Jeff: A young white kid.

[01:18:18] Jay: You brought up that Prince cover. Um, also, you know, Sinead. Um, but like, That reminded me of the, uh, there was a Prince Discog Dive that just went through where it’s like, this is a YouTuber who like goes through the entire discography of an artist. And I mean, it’s one of those things where it’s like, not everything they say is going to be great and, but it was pretty solid.

[01:18:43] Jay: And they just, it just reminded me, you were talking about this, this weird mindset of like people not realizing what’s going on in front of them. And He brings up this moment where Prince opened for, um, the Rolling Stones and in [01:19:00] L. A. at the L. A. Coliseum. And got booed for three days straight. And to the point where literally people were like, they were mailing in and sending in like letters with just racist and like homophobic slurs about why the greatest rock band in history would allow like such derogatory filth to open for them.

[01:19:26] Jay: And in my mind, I’m just like. That was Prince, like,

[01:19:31] Jeff: I know, that’s crazy!

[01:19:33] Jay: that whole mi and, and kind of like you were saying with like Living Color and Extreme of just like You don’t, you don’t even realize what you have in front of you. Like you don’t realize the amaze, like just the amazing history and legacy.

[01:19:47] Jay: And at the time it was the very much present, but like, I would, I, I’ve, I’ve wondered, like, have I ever gone to a show where it’s like, all of a sudden I’m going to regret that I was like, Oh yeah, that first band sucked. Who [01:20:00] was that? Oh, I don’t

[01:20:00] Jeff: yeah, yeah, right, right, right, right. Well, you know, the, when, when they opened for the Rolling Stones, there were nights where the, where white men in the front crowd would just hold up their middle fingers for the entire set. And that’s, despite the fact, the reason they, so Mick Jagger saw them at CBGBs and was like, I love you.

[01:20:18] Jeff: I have studio time, not far from here. I would like to record a demo for you for free. And like, that’s actually how they got like towards a record label. So there’s like this real relationship between the Rolling Stones and this band. And it’s the same thing. People are like, what the fuck are you bringing these guys here?

[01:20:33] Brett: did you know when you bought Extreme Tickets that Living Color was playing? Was that why you bought the

[01:20:38] Jeff: I, what kind of asshole

[01:20:40] Brett: I’m, I gotta know. I just need this out on the table.

[01:20:43] Jeff: Yeah, no, I had said about three years ago, I’m like, the next time that band comes to town, because they would reunite, I’m going to the show. And then I see Extreme, Living Color, I’m like, fuck!

[01:20:54] Brett: I meant no offense. I

[01:20:55] Jeff: It made me wish you

[01:20:56] Brett: like that needed to be said out

[01:20:57] Jeff: it made me wish you could like, I don’t know if this [01:21:00] is quite like ranked choice voting, but like you could divert, you could say I want, I want 95% of my ticket to go to Living Color.

[01:21:07] Jeff: And 5% to go to Xtreme because I did own the album, you know, um, but yeah, no, fuck that. I, are you kidding me? And I left, man. I walked, I went and bought my shirt when they were done and I was out of there before that band took the stage. So

[01:21:23] Brett: Alright.

[01:21:24] Jeff: Xtreme fans.

[01:21:25] Brett: Well, thanks for being here this week, Jay.

[01:21:27] Jeff: Thank you, Jay.

[01:21:28] Brett: We’re gonna have you back again on a week Christina can make it.

[01:21:31] Jay: Absolutely.

[01:21:33] Brett: Alright.

[01:21:33] Jay: it. It’s a dream come true for me. Um, I’ve been on, I think I’ve completed uh, all of the podcasts that I’ve ever wanted to be on. So,

[01:21:42] Brett: There you go.

[01:21:43] Jay: we’ve done it.

[01:21:44] Brett: Alright. You guys get some sleep.

[01:21:47] Jay: Get some sleep.

[01:21:47] Jeff: sleep. [01:22:00]