304: The One About Taylor Swift

Christina tells the epic tale of Taylor Swift, from early days to the middle of the night.

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Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jeffreyguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.


The One About Taylor Swift

[00:00:00] Christina: I don’t want

[00:00:01] Jeffrey: Anybody else mean that?

[00:00:04] Christina: I touch myself.

[00:00:06] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:06] Brett: Mm-hmm.

[00:00:07] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired.

[00:00:11] Jeffrey: Hi everybody. This is the Overtired podcast. I’m here today with Brett Terpstra. Say hello, Brett

[00:00:19] Brett: Hello, Jeff?

[00:00:20] Jeffrey: I love, I love commanding hellos.

[00:00:22] Brett: Wait. Hello, Brett?

[00:00:24] Jeffrey: Christina Warren. Say hello

[00:00:25] Christina: Hello.

[00:00:26] Jeffrey: and our special guest, Taylor Swift. She’s not really here, but she’s here in spirit. We’ll talk all about her. Just get ready, start stretching.

[00:00:35] Um, it’s good to see you all. I haven’t seen you. I guess it was only a week I took off, but it feels like longer for some reason.

[00:00:41] Brett: Yeah. We miss you.

[00:00:43] Jeffrey: Thank you. Glad

[00:00:44] Brett: Yeah. You, you’ve had, uh, you’ve had some tooth trauma. What’s going on with your mouth?

[00:00:49] Jeffrey: Mm, everybody loves to hear people’s dental problems. Uh, so I went into the, I had this horrible pain and I had it for a little while and I went into the dentist cause I was about to leave town, so some friends and I, we rented a little island with a cabin on it. And, uh, and I was gonna be living on an island in northern Minnesota for like four days, but I had all this tooth pain.

[00:01:10] So I went in just to see if there was anything to be done or take a look at it. And they were like, Oh, this tooth is is like dying. It’s, and they, it’s called resorption. And the idea is basically that my, my body has targeted that tooth, uh, and is sort of, Sending all of its negative dark energy to the tooth, and the tooth was just like decaying from the inside.

[00:01:32] It was just a really bizarre thing. I’ve never heard of it. And they’re like, This has to get pulled. And so just yesterday I went and got it pulled. I have very long roots. I’ve had this problem since I was a kid. When I get my teeth pulled, I already know what they’re gonna say before they say it, which is like, okay, this is gonna take a little extra time.

[00:01:50] Right? And I may have to take this off in not two pieces, but four to six pieces, which is what happened yesterday. I was in the dentist chair for three hours. I was in it so long that other staff were coming in to say goodnight to the dentist

[00:02:06] Christina: Oh my God.

[00:02:08] Jeffrey: And there were definitely points where he. Exactly. Sure he was gonna be able to get everything out.

[00:02:15] Um, but he remained, uh, comfortably confident, unlike some dentists who are just, I think, ridiculously confident. Um, and we got that. We got that thing out and now I have this like, massive hole and I hate, it’s a gap between my teeth. It was a big molar. And, uh, and I also now can say that pretty soon, six of my eight molars will be either crowns or in this case an implant.

[00:02:41] So I’m, I’m not gonna em off one by one.

[00:02:43] Brett: Wow. My, uh, my dentist looks for any, excuse not to use Novocaine. She’s always.

[00:02:50] Jeffrey: I remember

[00:02:51] Brett: always like, No, this will be e I barely have to drill it all.

[00:02:54] Jeffrey: Oh

[00:02:54] Brett: just gonna just, just, just hold on. It won’t take long. And I always end up crying because I get like super tense and then the pain starts, and then I’m just like, this combination of expectation and actual tooth pain, like a tear always runs on my cheek.

[00:03:11] And I’m, I told her last time, I’m like, If you make me cry, I’m fucking switching dentists. And, and she still insisted that this one won’t require Novocaine. It’ll just be a quick, quick drill.

[00:03:25] Jeffrey: so I’ve had a version of that where my dentist will say, I’m pretty sure you don’t need it. Let’s, How do you feel about moving forward? And if you think like you can’t handle it, we stop immediately and just start, get out the needles. But like the idea that she’s kind of suggesting that the correct

[00:03:42] Brett: despite my protestation, she’s suggesting that I don’t need it.

[00:03:47] Jeffrey: that’s not how you help people.

[00:03:48] Brett: That’s

[00:03:49] Jeffrey: That is actually how a lot of people help people, but it’s not how you should help people.


[00:03:52] Brett: So I swore in front of her, I said the FBO in front of her. I think I mentioned that on a show previously. Um, and, and she like called me out on it and, and it was like, don’t use that language in front of next visit. She leans over it, she’s telling a story to her, like, uh, her hygienist and she leans over and whispers something, fucking, something, uh, as if like in a solidarity kind of thing.

[00:04:22] Christina: Hmm.

[00:04:22] Brett: Like, she knows I’m down with it. So she’s like, eh, I’m gonna swear under my breath, um, to make me feel okay. I guess. I don’t know. But I mean, that’s the thing about swearing is it is a, it’s a social construct. Like you swear to test the waters and if someone’s okay with it, you swear within reason. If you swear too much, you’ve broken the social bond.

[00:04:46] Um, like there’s, there’s a way to overdo it, even if someone’s comfortable with swearing, like you can still swear too much for that person. So it’s a constant give and take to figure out like how much swearing is okay, what words are okay. And if you don’t respond to it properly, you break the social contract.

[00:05:05] And, and like you can really, you can really screw things up, . But I think she, I think she was making an effort to, to be social, like.

[00:05:15] Christina: One of my favorite experiences ever. So at Gizmoto, one of the, when I moved from Mashable to Gizmoto, one of the biggest changes was obviously the amount of swearing you could do. Uh, I think Mashable now, they curse a little bit more, but at the time,

[00:05:28] Brett: In writing.

[00:05:30] Christina: in writing, I was the only person who would ever like successfully, I think other than maybe if there was a direct quote, um, for something.

[00:05:38] I was like one of the only people who would ever. Been able to curse, like, at least with the fbam, like in like a, a, a lead sentence. Right? And, and I

[00:05:48] Brett: but not a headline.

[00:05:49] Christina: I almost got in, in a headline. It was approved as a headline and then it was changed at the last minute. And I was mad because the headline was so good.

[00:05:55] It was when the Ashley Madison hack happened and I said, Ashley Madison is fucked, was my headline. And that, and that remained the, um, the slug and it was approved. I, I, I won approval for it. And then the, the

[00:06:07] Jeffrey: a good seo.

[00:06:08] Christina: it? Well, it, it would’ve, well actually this was the argument for why Chris Taylor, who I love, and he’s, he’s great.

[00:06:15] Ended up changing it to Ashley Madison is so screwed. And he was probably right to do so. Um, it did better on Facebook. Um, and it got like shitloads of Facebook, um, uh, traffic and it.

[00:06:26] Brett: you AB test this? Do

[00:06:27] Christina: No, No, but, but, but Facebook, and I don’t know if they still do, but at the time they would not like, promote things that had like cursing and headlines.

[00:06:35] Right? So in terms of, of, so, so in terms of like, if we share to our page the way it’s gonna be re-shared and, and other stuff like was, was, would be impacted. So it was ultimately probably the right move. But I was, was up, I mean, there was a part of me that died inside cuz I was like, God, it was such a good headline.

[00:06:55] Um, and, and I, I successfully won it. So I go over to Gizmodo, Gizmodo, the Curse all the time is not a big deal. And my first month there, um, uh, Alex Dickinson, our deputy editor, great guy, um, sends out an email who ba basically saying, Look, You’re cussing too much. Like it’s fine. We, we wanna do it, but it’s losing its value because you’re, you’re doing it so much that it’s like, it, it’s, it’s, it’s losing its edge and it’s just coming across as just kind of crunchy.

[00:07:27] And I was like, Man, I’m at the right place because this is the sort of emails we get, which is like, not don’t curse, just, you know, save it and use it better. Um, but,

[00:07:39] Jeffrey: That’s just like, that’s interesting. Cause that’s just like, you know, Brent, what you were describing in social situations

[00:07:45] Christina: exactly. No, you nailed

[00:07:47] Jeffrey: can test the waters, but then it’s gonna get to the point where you’re like, Oh, okay. There’s a threshold I didn’t see coming.

[00:07:52] Christina: Right. And, and, and in this case, the, the threshold wasn’t even so much like, Oh, we think this is socially distasteful. It’s just more like you’re, it’s eye roll inducing and it, and it’s not like, uh, the shock value and things that you think that you’re, you know, achieving aren’t there anymore.

[00:08:06] Brett: like I was raised to believe that swearing was a sign of low intelligence. Um, people, people with good vocabularies don’t swear. And as I grew up and like became more literate, I began to realize that swearing absolutely has a place in language. Uh, like it can be very pointed and it can really underscore a sentiment.

[00:08:31] I think there is absolutely a, I think a very intelligent, I think some of the most intelligent people know where to put an f bomb in a sentence and, and punctuate it, uh, and make it relatable without making it, uh, obscene.

[00:08:48] Jeffrey: When I joined my wife’s family, both my mother-in-law and her grandmother, said privately to her, I don’t normally like it when people swear, but it doesn’t bug me the way Jeff does it And I’ve always thought of that as my skill, but man, sometimes now it with news articles or any kind of article, I always love it when a source gives a great quote with a swear word in it.

[00:09:12] Cause like, you never, you never expect that. And, and I don’t mean like, I don’t mean that like dimly or thick, not like thick in the head or anything. I just mean like it can be, it can like take you by surprise, right? Um, except the one, my favorite example of that, I keep some very short soundbites of. Have done over the years, and one of the most bizarre, like obvious quotes I ever had was from Ian Mackay of Fugazi and Minor threat.

[00:09:39] He says to me in the middle of the interview, I mean, I’m a fucking punk rocker . And I was like, Yeah, okay. I know . Like that’s your whole fucking deal. So I saved that to just play for people every once in a while. I’m a fucking punk rocker.

[00:09:54] Brett: So, uh, sh sh Should we do a mental health corner?

Mental Heatlh Corner

[00:09:58] Christina: Very briefly, because we have to talk about Taylor Swift. This is very

[00:10:00] Brett: We do. This is a Taylor Swift episode. Yeah. I’ll try to keep, I’ll try to keep mine short. So I, I found the definition of it’s Cyclothymia, or it’s C y c l o t h y m i a. Um, I dunno exactly how it’s pronounced, but the definition of it is, um, uh, hypomanic episodes alternating with light depression and, uh, without rapid cycling, uh, without a lot of stability in.

[00:10:35] And that I, I think, I think that’s what I actually have instead of bipolar too. I think I have psycho imia emia. Um, I have not yet discussed it with my psychiatrist. Um, my therapist thought, Yeah, that makes perfect sense, but he, he’s not licensed to diagnose that kind of thing. So, um, I have yet to bring it up with my therapist, but man, I am absolutely realizing I don’t have an in between, between depression and mania.

[00:11:11] Um, and I’m going through this thing, right? Like I have this very deep conviction right now. I will ultimately hurt everybody I love. And, uh, this, this feeling that when people say, I love you, like in my head I’m like, That’s awesome. I love you too, but you’re gonna get fucked on this deal. Um, that I will eventually hurt.

[00:11:39] And, and like some people in my life have been very forgiving, uh, over time. But also I walked out of a, a marriage and I walked out of friendships and I get bored and I hurt people or I fuck up and I hurt people. And man, when I’m, when I’m not, man, and shit really weighs on my mind.

[00:12:01] Jeffrey: Hmm.

[00:12:01] Brett: You start to wonder like, would would the people I love be better off if I’d never been born?

[00:12:06] I am not suicidal. Do not take this as me being

[00:12:09] Jeffrey: we were heading there. Yeah. Right. And that’s not true.

[00:12:12] Brett: But it, but it is what weighs on my mind in times like this.

[00:12:17] Jeffrey: It’s a question that can only be answered falsely by you.

[00:12:20] Christina: Yes. No, you’re right, you’re right though. That that’s the thing is, is that it is one of those things where, cuz I think a lot of us have that question a lot of times and, and it’s, and it’s upsetting. I’m sorry that you’re having it now. And I think that it is worth like, weighing on like those things that we do that like nag at us and like this is, um, like certainly these are the things that keep me up at night, right?

[00:12:44] Like the self-loathing parts, like the things where you like question every decision you’ve ever made and, and decisions you haven’t made and, and, and how you are. And that can be really, um, debilitating. But to, to Jeff’s point, like it is one of those things where, You will, we can only answer it falsely, but the answer is definitively no.

[00:13:07] People would not be better off like you provide value. Like there, look, there are some people, I’m not gonna like pretend like that there aren’t situations where, there are some people where I look back in my life and I’m like, I would’ve been better off if I had not known them and if I had not met them and if they had not been in my life.

[00:13:21] Right? That’s just, that’s accurate I think for everyone. But like, that’s, that’s not the case with you, right? Like even the worst things you’ve ever done to people, like the, the good and other things that you’ve done with them outweigh that. And uh, you know, and I think that, that, like my, my father had like a pretty complicated relationship with his mother, and she’s one of those people where I think back, I’m like, nothing to value would’ve been lost if she was, if she had never been in my life, if I’d never known her or anything, like, nothing to value would be lost.

[00:13:52] I’m not gonna say my life would’ve been better, but zero would’ve been lost. But I think that even him is debilitating and is like, Oppressive and as hard as that relationship was, um, in a lot of ways, if you were to ask him, would my life have been better off, if she had never been around, he would’ve a, he would, he would respond, No.

[00:14:13] Right. Like he still got something there, which like, as an outsider, it’s hard for me to grab that. I’m like, Man, I would be like, if you could do, have a doover and have her not exist. Sure.

[00:14:23] Brett: If this is still relevant in a future week, I will revisit it and, and offer my rebuttal. But we have Taylor to get you, so I’m gonna accept what you’re saying. Thank you. Thank you for your feedback.

[00:14:37] Jeffrey: Um, my mental health check in is that, I, um, I went away with two other couples, my wife and I and two other couples. Their kids, our kids. Our kids have all been friends forever. It’s how we know each other as adults. And it is a, a relationship that has been really just getting tighter and tighter by the years.

[00:15:00] We’ve done different vacations together. This time we rented an island, uh, in northern Minnesota with like the gnarliest, most delightful disaster of a pontoon boat ever, which had the name Leisure Island. Leisure Island, if you’re classy. Um, and you know, I just have this memory cuz I actually, the first night we were all there together, I had to bow out cause I had taken Tylenol with codeine from my tooth, which it turns out doesn’t play with lithium.

[00:15:26] And so I was super nauseous and ultimately it was just like in there throwing up. It was awful. But from the other room, I could hear. All of these people, 10 people ranging from eighth grade to, I suppose I’m the oldest, I think. Um, but they’re all just like having a blast. And it was that kind of easy fun that you can have with people you’ve known for a while.

[00:15:48] Um, and it was so cool cause all the kids were part of it, whatever, like, it just felt good. I don’t have a lot of friendships that are like newish. Um, and these are, you know, within 15 years or so. And, um, and it was just like really good for me to be in that space with those people. And fortunately I wasn’t throwing up the rest of the trip.

[00:16:11] Um, just waking up onto a porch with, you know, four friends who are having coffee and staring at the lake and just talking about whatever comes.

[00:16:20] Brett: That sounds nice.

[00:16:21] Christina: Yeah.

[00:16:22] Jeffrey: Without my wife, I don’t know that these things would happen to me. , she does a really good job of finding the good things and keeping them close, um, whereas I’m more likely to just wanna hide.

[00:16:35] Uh, but it’s just lovely and wonderful. So that was, that was super nice.

[00:16:39] Brett: That’s beautiful.

[00:16:41] Jeffrey: Christina, how you doing?

[00:16:42] Christina: I’m good. I’m, um, so I’m gonna be in San Francisco next week as usual. Work is often tied at times tied to my mental health because that’s me. Um, which is other stuff I probably need to, to deal with. But yeah, I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m doing well. Um, I, uh, if we have time to get into it, I’ve been pissing some people off on Twitter, which is always fun for me, so,

[00:17:08] Jeffrey: just don’t worry. It’s all gonna be wiped clean in a couple days when Elon’s officially in charge. Um, actually he’s been firing people left and right, hasn’t he?

[00:17:15] Christina: yeah, yeah,

[00:17:16] Brett: is the core of what, what Christina piss people

[00:17:19] Christina: yeah. That, that, that’s the core of what pissed them off because cuz I, I was. Basically like good riddens to, uh, Paraag Agarwal, the Twitter ceo, uh, who I think did a pretty shitty job. Um, uh, a large, uh, contingent of a, of a subcontinent. Did not agree with that. And, uh, and uh, yeah. So that was fun.

Taylor Swift: A History (Part 1)

[00:17:42] Jeffrey: Okay. Christina Taylor Swift has a new album, so much more than that to talk about in a way. Cuz she’s just like, talk about constellations. There’s like extra songs over here and there’s a video and there’s, you know, Um, Alright. I, I know that Brett and I had homework, but I think, and I want to hear from Brett.

[00:18:03] I have nothing interesting to offer that is original of my own. I really enjoyed listening to the album. I listened to it a few times over and, uh,

[00:18:13] Christina: Thank you. Thank you for doing the homework. Brett did not put that much into it, and he never does. So I, this is one of the reasons I’m

[00:18:19] Brett: I gave it a full

[00:18:20] Christina: I knew you did and I appreciate that. That is,

[00:18:23] Brett: and I watched the music videos,

[00:18:25] Christina: which again, I appreciate and, and I wanna be clear. That’s even more than I expect from you.

[00:18:30] But to see this is why I love having Jeff on because he like genuinely goes like above and beyond and really gets into it. And here’s the thing. I love that you did it, Brett, but I know that you hated every second of it and that you didn’t wanna do it. Whereas like Jeff like was excited by like the

[00:18:45] Brett: I did it thoughtfully. I did it and I thought, How do I feel about this? And I came to, I came to conclusions and I, and that, and then I would be like, Let’s listen to one more song and, and then see how I feel about it. And, and I did that and I got all the way through it and I did my homework. And you, you, you, I’m not an extra credit guy, I guess.

[00:19:06] Jeffrey: so Christina, let’s like, let’s set the, let’s set this up a little bit. First of all, what number album is this for Taylor Swift? Number 10. First album came out.

[00:19:16] Christina: is, uh, 2006.

[00:19:18] Jeffrey: Okay,

[00:19:19] Christina: And, and, and so it’s, it’s her 10th album, but she also did two full rerecord. So it’s, it, it could be number 12 if, if you, you know, wanted to count those. Um, but it, it’s the, the 10th original album.

[00:19:32] Jeffrey: And will you tell me just briefly what is the deal with the rerecord?

[00:19:36] Christina: So she, Okay, so, um, she was signed to a record label called Big Machine, um, Records in 2006, and they owned her masters, which is the case with almost all artists. She had wanted to get to the point where she could own her own masters and buy her old ones back, but they had basically been like, You will have to do a new album for us for.

[00:19:58] Master recording you wanna get back. Basically like tying her into an even longer, um, uh, contract with them. And, and she, I guess, had some disputes with them about some other things. So when she left Big Machine and went to Republic, which is part of Universal in 2017, she, I think she did that in part because Scott Boesche, the owner of the label, had kind of made it clear that he wasn’t super interested in continuing to own the record label.

[00:20:23] Kind of wanted to cash out what he wound up doing. I think they had, she claims that they made efforts to buy the, the, um, Masters back and that they were, uh, not allowed. Uh, they dispute this, it’s unclear, but he wound up selling. The company and by extent all of her masters to Scooter Bran. And Scooter Bran was someone that she’d previously had negative interactions with.

[00:20:47] He’s, he’s a talent manager. Uh, he like most famous for discovering, uh, Justin Bieber. He also managed, uh, manages, uh, um, Ariana Grande and, and Demi Lovato and some others. But he and Taylor had, had, uh, past, uh, negative experiences. She did not want him to own her work. He was, frankly pretty dickish about it.

[00:21:07] And kind of like once he, he bought, you know, the label and the whole reason you would buy Big Machine. To be very clear, the only reason you buy big machine is for the Taylor Swift catalog. Like that’s where all the value is. So, cuz there are some other artists that are signed there, but they’re incidental.

[00:21:21] The whole reason you buy the label is, is for her.

[00:21:24] Jeffrey: and so she was on, She was on big machine from day one.

[00:21:27] Christina: Yes. Like Scott Rotta signed her. So like, she was 16, I think she was 15 when she maybe got the record deal. And, and, and he signed her. And to be clear, like he put a lot into her and made bets too. But she also very quickly took off and, and, and made the label right, because it was this indie label. And she also, in fairness to her, I mean like they, they helped each other.

[00:21:47] I think they’re acrimony. It’s, it’s a big part of some of the songs, um, on, uh, uh, folklore. Um, and, and there are a couple of songs on midnights that allude to it too, but it’s clearly a very big, um, uh, you know, breakup for her, probably the biggest in her life. Um, but then where she felt betrayed was that not only was it the, the label sold, but she knew was going to happen, but it was sold to this person that she did not respect and that she did not like, who then started gloating about, Oh, I own this stuff now.

[00:22:17] The problem was, and the, and this is where the rerecord stuff comes, Because she’s the songwriter on every single one of her songs. She’s the co-writer in some cases, but she is the songwriter on every single one of her songs. They cannot license the originals unless she also gives her her permission because she does, she, they, they own the master recording, but they don’t own the songwriter credits.

[00:22:39] Um, and, and, and you need both if you wanna, wanna license something for mechanical use for film or television or advertisements, which is again, the reason why you would buy the back catalog wouldn’t just be for the royalties and streaming. No, she’s famously not licensed her music much. Um, but if someone else owns it, like they could license it, however, she has to still give her permission.

[00:23:01] So what she did is she figured out, Oh, if I rerecord. The music then that will take away from the profit they can make off of streaming. And I can license the rerecord, but not license the originals. So basically, you know, in, in, in effect cutting down how much money they could get from it. Scooter bronze still wound up, he wound up flipping the catalog and sold it for like 300 and something million, um, to, uh, Abigail Disney, I think.

[00:23:31] Um, and, and they’d had some, and they’d had some talks, uh, Taylor did about maybe being involved with them, but Scooter still was going to. Receive profits after the fact. And, and that was kind of a deal breaker for her. So she has proceeded with saying, Okay, I’m going to rerecord every album I made. And she’s done it in a very exacting process where, like the first two, anyway, like there are some minor differences, but they are basically sound alike.

[00:23:58] And, and it’s, it’s been a very meticulous process. And she’s, you know, I think Prince and others have done similar things, but she’s certainly the first of this modern era to do this. And, and the whole reason was basically to, because she’s a petty bitch, which is again, a, a, a theme very common on midnights.

[00:24:15] Jeffrey: Hmm. What do you mean? Why? Why? Cuz she’s a petty bitch. Oh, you’re saying, you’re saying this is a, This is a high five moment.

[00:24:23] Christina: Yes. No, I’m, I’m saying, I’m, I’m saying like, I’m saying that No, no, I’m saying like, this is like a, I’m also saying, uh, this is like a core part for personality. Um, I want you to do the ad read. We’re gonna hear, uh, Jeff’s response, Jeff’s thoughts on, uh, midnights after, uh, our, our break from our sponsors.

[00:24:44] Brett: Add time.

Sponser: MindBloom

[00:24:45] Christina: time. This episode is brought to you by Mind Bloom. You just need to take better care of yourself. Is not a response to mental health struggles. You know all too well you live with them. That’s also a tailor reference. Incidentally, sometimes you need something more to achieve a real and lasting breakthrough.

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[00:26:42] Christina: Yeah, that’s the one thing you need to check. Make sure it’s in your area. But if it is, this is like, I think a great option for a lot of people who have been failed by regular medication and, and normal therapies.

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Taylor Swift: A History (Part 2)

[00:28:56] Jeffrey: Bang, Splat. P Norwegian blood sports. Uh, one thing when people say the cost of a cup of coffee, one at a one at a time. What? What’s your dollar amount? Christina.

[00:29:10] Christina: like five bucks.

[00:29:11] Jeffrey: Okay, Brett.

[00:29:13] Brett: 2 2 75.

[00:29:15] Jeffrey: You’re doing that, you’re doing that, uh, diner coffee where they give you an early riser with no coffee, but then you pay two 50 for the coffee.

[00:29:22] Brett: I’m doing a double espresso in Winona, Minnesota, cost me 2

[00:29:26] Jeffrey: seven. I mean, cuz I like, as my former colleague who was female, liked to say of me, I like those girly drinks. Um,

[00:29:35] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say at this point, I don’t even know what, because I, I don’t go to Starbucks all that often, so I don’t even like know what their pricing is. It’s probably gone up though, as everything has, and if you’re gonna get a larger size coffee Yeah. Probably is more than five at this point.

[00:29:48] Jeffrey: yeah.

[00:29:48] Brett: How much is aio?

[00:29:50] Jeffrey: What’s a, what’s a dope?

[00:29:53] Brett: That’s what Starbucks calls a double espresso.

[00:29:57] Jeffrey: I thought that was a

[00:29:58] Brett: Yeah.

[00:29:58] Christina: that, so that’s so, so that’s cheaper than like the, the fancy drinks with the syrups and all the other stuff, But it’s still

[00:30:05] Brett: saying for me that’s a cup of coffee

[00:30:07] Christina: Yeah, that’s, but that’s, that, that’s, that’s not 2 75 though, at Starbucks.

[00:30:12] Jeffrey: Now I don’t, if you don’t mind, I have a few more questions before even I have anything to say. Um, and, and I’m sorry that these are such rudimentary questions, but I bet there are people out there that share them with me.

[00:30:25] Christina: Oh, I’m sure there are.

[00:30:27] Jeffrey: you’ve just sort of bracketed, um, the period of her career where she’s with big machines, Right.

[00:30:34] And that label

[00:30:36] Christina: that was, that was two thou, That was 2006 to 2017.

[00:30:39] Jeffrey: and what’s the first record outside of big machines? Is it a re-recording or is it a new

[00:30:44] Christina: No, no, her, her first one was Lover, which came out in, in 2019, um, and is sonically similar to midnights, although I think midnights it improves on it, which that was, that was the first one on Universal. And that was in 2019. And then in 2020 she dropped, um, uh, a folklore, uh, during the pandemic when no one was expecting it.

[00:31:04] And it took everything by storm. Then she dropped, um, uh, evermore as like the follow up, um, that, that, that she did basically between the, the times that they were released, like three months later. Then in, uh, I think in March of 2021, she did Fearless, which was her second album, but the first one to win album of the year at the Grammy’s.

[00:31:26] Uh, she now has three of those. Um, and so that came out, So that was originally released in 2008. The re-release was in, in March, I think of, of 2021. And then in November of 2021, um, she did the Rerecord of Red, which was her, um, uh, Fourth album, um, and, uh, and, and the one that fans have a, a really strong liking to.

[00:31:50] Uh,

[00:31:51] Brett: I’m a huge fan of, I’m a

[00:31:52] Christina: yeah, Red, Red is my favorite album. Red is my favorite Taylor album. Like, uh, so, so the, the chronology is, uh, debut Taylor Swift by Taylor Swift, Um, Fearless Speak now, which, uh, she wrote entirely herself. That’s gonna be the next rerecord. Uh, based on the, uh, various Easter eggs she put in, uh, one of the music videos that came out.

[00:32:12] Um, so every song On, on Speak now was, is written only by her. And that was sort of a response to people who claim the only reason she won the Grammy Fur album of the year was because other people wrote her work for her. And she was basically like, even though she’d written all the

[00:32:26] Brett: patently untrue as, as much as I might not be a die hard fan. That’s patently untrue. I know

[00:32:32] Christina: It absolutely, it absolutely is.

[00:32:33] But she was 19 years old and so at the time, she was the youngest album of the year when her, Billy Eilish has now surpassed that. But uh, at the time she was the youngest. And so there were a lot of people who were literally saying, The only reason you are anything is cuz you’re, you’re a puppet, basically.

[00:32:47] So she wrote an album called Speak Now, which was basically telling them Go fuck yourselves. Then she did Red, which is my favorite. Then she did 1989, which is like the one when she switched from country music to full on pop. And that was like her crossover album. That it very good, like I think it one of the, probably one of the most defining albums of the, of the 2010s.

[00:33:07] Um, uh, I think by, by any estimation, just in terms of cultural influence. Then she did reputation in 2017 and then Lover in 2019. And then, uh, yeah, we’re, we’re caught up.

[00:33:19] Jeffrey: And then at what point in this whole thing is the, So for me, I knew of Taylor Swift when this happened, but when the whole Kanye thing happened,

[00:33:29] Christina: That was, that was in 2009.

[00:33:31] Jeffrey: That was 2009. Okay.

[00:33:33] Christina: 2009. So, so, so the song that that was about was, You Belong With Me, which was off of her second album, Fearless. So this happens in, So the album, um, comes out in like November, 2008, but then that happened in August of 2009. Uh, she went on to then, uh, win the Grammy the following January.

[00:33:54] Um, but by that time she’d already released her third album, Speak Now. Um, no, I, I’ve got that timing wrong. She’d already won the Grammy, I guess, for, for Album of the Year by in 2009. Okay. Um, or has she? I don’t know. I don’t remember. Anyway, so the Kanye thing happened in 2009, regardless, that happened in, in August of 2009 at the VMAs.

[00:34:16] And that was the first thing that for a lot of people, Got her on their attention because she did that. And then she did, um, uh, Saturday Night Live, um, where she hosted and performed. And for a lot of people who didn’t listen to, to the radio or weren’t aware of things like that, was the president calling her a jackass was the thing that kind of like set her off and into becoming like, go, being like

[00:34:40] Jeffrey: that’s

[00:34:41] Christina: a best selling country artist into being like this, this much bigger like pop culture figure.

[00:34:47] Brett: I did it. So I still wanted to just randomly interrupt your answer with an I’m a finish, I’m gonna let you finish line, and I didn’t. I held it in adhd, impulse

[00:34:57] Jeffrey: I mean, did you hold it in though? In the end? What?

[00:35:00] Christina: No, no, you did.

[00:35:01] Brett: I waited. I waited. I waited for her to take a breath, and then I did it. And

[00:35:05] Christina: No, you did. And I was done with my thought. I’m proud of

[00:35:07] Brett: I feel it.

[00:35:08] I feel it in my bones. I was holding that in

[00:35:11] Jeffrey: you’ve come a long way. Thank you, Okay. So this is great. So that brings us, I mean, what what’s interesting to me and what’s helpful to me about what you’ve just shared is that it sounds like she’s still in the process of doing these rerecord, right?

[00:35:25] Christina: Yes, Yes. She’s only done two of them, so she has a bunch more to do,

[00:35:29] Jeffrey: it is stunning to me. So Def Leppard did that, but they did it like 30 years later, right? It’s stunning to me to think of, um, a pop star managing. One, all the bullshit around being a pop pop star, right? Um, two, just making new albums that are good or that you’re proud of. And three, in the midst of all of that, revisiting old work in the most intensive way and rerecording it like that is, that is like an incredible swirl of activity that must be almost a daily part of her life.

[00:36:03] Every single bit of that,

[00:36:06] Christina: Yeah, no, and, and she’s now started directing her own music videos. Like, so basically since, Yeah, the last, if you look at her career, like the last two years were really the last three, I guess, since since Lover, cuz I guess she already maybe started embark. I think she had to wait until a certain point to embark on the rerecord because it had to be five years.

[00:36:26] Um, you know, uh, past a, a certain point, um, for, for some of the, the rerecord to start, like there was a, there was a timing thing involved, but like if you look at how prolific she’s been just since 2020, it’s unreal. Cuz again, uh, we’ve had three, so since 2019 we’ve had four actual albums and two rerecord and a bunch of music videos and a 10 minute short film and, yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:52] Jeffrey: that’s, Oh, go

[00:36:54] Brett: You’re eventually gonna hear my thoughts on midnights, uh, whether this week or later. But, but I just wanna say the music videos from Midnights are a delightful mix of indie filmmaking with high budget effects. Like, they don’t feel, they don’t feel at all produced. They’re just like, all of a sudden there’s this thing that could not ex, you could not do it with practical effects.

[00:37:20] Like it’s just happening. And, and I really appreciate, uh, the music videos from midnights.

[00:37:27] Christina: Well, I’m No, and I’m glad to hear you say that cuz um, I, I feel the same way. Um, she used to work with Joseph Conn a lot. He did a lot of her videos for, for 1989. And, um, he’s, uh, a, a very famous, kind of like for his direction, style of being, like having really big kind of like boisterous videos and his like really out there productions.

[00:37:46] And I feel like she’s kind of taken the best aspects of some of the things he did, but then added more of that indie kind of flavor. I’ll be honest, I’m a huge fan of hers. I didn’t expect her to be a good director and I don’t know why I didn’t. I just, it wasn’t something I thought about her like excelling at, which is stupid because she’s director her whole career.

[00:38:05] But that was

[00:38:05] Brett: Yeah, for

[00:38:06] Christina: that was just, that was just not like a,

[00:38:09] Brett: if anything, if, if anything is demonstrated by her meticulous songwriting capabilities, it’s her ability to direct, like it’s, it’s all there. So that makes perfect

[00:38:21] Christina: no, no. You’re right. It does. And I don’t know why. And it’s not like I expected her to be bad at it. It just, maybe I just never even thought about it. I think that she’s not a good actress. Um, and, uh, she’s, she’s not. And, uh, not to say that she couldn’t be, I think that she wishes she were, and that she’s casts in some small roles, cuz she’s beautiful, but she’s not a good actress.

[00:38:40] Like, that’s not where her talent lies. Um, but she’s an, she’s an excellent director.

[00:38:47] Jeffrey: that’s awesome. Okay, so this album, what did it mean to you? You’re the biggest tailored Swift fan I know by far. I know You buy all the, like is it a comic book term I’m using wrong, A variance of the

[00:38:59] Christina: Oh yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:00] Jeffrey: got some, you got some cassettes, if I’m not

[00:39:03] Christina: Oh yeah. I, I got cassettes, I got, I got all the vinyl colors, like, Yeah, no, I, I, I gave, I give her so much money. It’s stupid. She doesn’t need it. Um,

[00:39:11] Jeffrey: her patron, you know, uh, what is this record to you?

[00:39:17] Christina: I think it’s a really good record and I was, I will, I will be totally honest. My first listen through, I wasn’t sure my, my, my priors here. I think that folklore and evermore are some of the best work she’s ever done. I think that red and the red rerecording, which added a bunch of extra tracks, which were just incredible.

[00:39:35] I think red is, is her best work. Um, and, and will probably remain that way. Uh, not to say it’s perfect, like I think like 1989 is like a much like more perfect, pristine, pristine, precise package. But I think red is just like, for me, that’s the one that like hits me and like puts me in the feels. And so those three records having happened, I loved so much and it opened up this side of Taylor that I was not expecting.

[00:39:59] Like I’m a huge fan of the national and I never expected. Like the two of them to work together. I’d never expected Bonaire and Taylor to do songs together. I love Bonaire. Cuz in my mind, those are the two different sides of my musical brain. Right? Like, I don’t put those things in the same category. Not that I don’t love Taylor, it’s just I don’t, I don’t put those in the same thing.

[00:40:20] And, and when they did and it worked so well. I love that. So, so go on.

[00:40:26] Brett: You, but you do put Bono Air, the National, and Lana Delray kind of in the same category. Right. So this feels like a tendency from Taylor Swift to collaborate with this particular genre of

[00:40:40] Christina: Now it is. Now it is. But this, but up until 2020 it hadn’t been right. Like she collaborated with not those people. Right? Like I think that, um, uh, I think there was probably fear in her part, and she’s even expressed this, like she didn’t know if those people would want to collaborate with her, which, which seems ridiculous, but, but, you know, but you know, I think that, um, honestly, I’ll say this, I think up until, uh, a folklore, there was still a very strong part of like the music snob, kind of music critic part who dismissed her no matter how.

[00:41:15] Like you didn’t Brett because you agreed like you knew how good her songwriting was. But there were a lot of people who completely dismissed her and didn’t see her as an artist and was just like, she’s just this thing. Then those albums come out and all of a sudden people wake up and they go, Oh, holy shit.

[00:41:29] You are an artist. And, and so what’s, and you can work with these very celebrated, you know, musicians and songwriters as you should. Um, So for me it was a little bit jarring for her to go much more directionally similar to Lover, which is not my favorite album of hers. Some of the tracks on it are like, I think Cruel Summer is a great track.

[00:41:50] I think The Archer is fantastic, but that’s not my favorite album of hers at all. And sonically Midnights is, is similar. So my first, listen, I was a little bit like, okay, well it’s good to have Pop Taylor back. You know? It was, it was, you know, we had a nice sojourn, but this is, this, I, I guess it’s good to hear it again.

[00:42:08] Then I listen to the record. . And on the second, listen, I started like hearing more things and I started going, Okay, I think this is more interesting than I gave it credit for. And now I think the more I’ve listened to it, and this could change, you know, in, in, in six months, um, I think it, it’s definitely my top five tailor albums, which shifts 10 of them.

[00:42:25] So, you know, it, it’s, it, it, I don’t think it’s in the top three because I think that that’s read evermore folklore, maybe 1989 replaces one of the, the folk mos. Um, but, but it, but it’s definitely in the top five and, and I think that it, um, I didn’t expect that. So that’s was kind of my response was that two things.

[00:42:46] One, um, it’s a return to an old sound that she works with Jack Antonoff, um, who’s her longtime friend and, and collaborator. He produces all the tracks on the main version. Um, uh, Aaron Deser does do some stuff on the, uh, three, the 3M version, but it’s this return to pop, but it’s this return, I think. After she now has achieved this sort of credibility from basically everyone in the industry that they, they can’t diminish her again.

[00:43:14] Right. So it’s almost like, it almost feels like listening to her and going through the process, it’s almost like she felt more free to just be like, No one is ever going to doubt my skills, whether they like the work or not. Right? Like, she’s now solidified as an artist. So I think that it’s, it’s interesting, like, and, and I like a lot of the songs.

[00:43:33] Like, I think that a lot of the production things are interesting. I think a lot of the lyrics are really good. Um, I think it’s a really good record, but it, it was, it was hard for me at first. That’s my very overly long response.

[00:43:44] Jeffrey: Yeah. Wait, will you quick, I may put this earlier, but will you state the sort of premise of this album and describe the 3:00 AM version

[00:43:53] Christina: Yeah, so the premise is basically it’s, it’s stuff that keeps her up at night, which is why it’s, I call it the old retired album because she, she literally said that this is the things she would think about that would keep her up at night and, and the songs that she would write at midnight, and the thoughts going through her head and the stories, and they’re from various faces of her life.

[00:44:10] So that’s the other, uh, big thing with this album is it is a return to the confessional songwriting that she’s famous for on evermore and folklore. She stepped out of that a little bit. There was some of that, but most of it, Just, you know, made up stories. This is back to that confessional songwriting from different eras of her life.

[00:44:27] And then the 3:00 AM section were our seven additional tracks that didn’t fit thematically or for whatever reason on the album, but that she also recorded during those sessions. Many of them are very good. Um, and, and she’s famous for referencing like 2:00 AM or 3:00 AM in her song lyrics. So having them come out at 3:00 AM like that, that’s, you know, it can be a little coin.

[00:44:50] I enjoy it, but I understand other people playing it coining. She does a lot of these Easter direct things, but she is nothing if not self-referential and, and if not, like, highly, highly meticulous about, you know, this stuff. And so, yeah, that, that’s the two things. So the core album is 13 tracks. Uh, 13 is her lucky number.

[00:45:07] And, um, then there’s seven additional, um, 3:00 AM tracks, which, which, you know, uh, pat out the, the whole thing.

[00:45:15] Jeffrey: Okay. Okay. Well, I, I will say that I, I loved, so this album just felt it’s an album that’s delivered lightly. Like it’s not, it doesn’t come in like trying to prove itself . Right. But at the same time, she, you know, when, when her like words and phrases as I’m working and listening to it, like sneak through, um, it’s always really like, I’m just like, Oh, I’m glad I heard that.

[00:45:43] I’m glad, you know, like, although, I mean beginning with in Antihero, like it’s me. Hi, I’m the problem. It’s me. Like just the way she delivers that, um, it being a great line on its own, but just being, the way she delivers it is just fantastic. It doesn’t feel, it’s really nice when an artist can like be really, they’re really delivering something, right?

[00:46:06] But they’re not. not all caught up in themselves delivering it. And that’s how that album feels to me for, from her, it just feels like exactly what it is. It feels like a 10th album feels like somebody who’s a few years out of a really shitty contract, Right? and someone who knows herself deeply, especially since she has to revisit herself in the most, you know, detailed manners.

[00:46:30] Um,

[00:46:30] Brett: feel like, I feel like my opinion might have been swayed by Christina in the opposite way intended. Like,

[00:46:38] Christina: like it less

[00:46:40] Brett: if somebody loves something too much, then I instinctively it’s, it’s not cool to also love that thing.

[00:46:47] Jeffrey: let’s see. Even at the scale, even at the scale of a friend, not like a culture or a society, but like a friend, I remember to downplay that with no more gratitude. We’re just gonna like, be really like, well, I kind of, I guess I kind of like this app a little bit. And Brett’s gonna be like, what app? What app?

[00:47:05] Brett: Like, I listened to this album, I, I listen and, and I listened, and anytime a lyric caught my attention, I would go back and I would read all of the lyrics. And like repeatedly I thought, Holy shit. She is a wordsmith and a, and a, an art artisanal songwriter. Like she crafts amazing songs. The fact was, I.

[00:47:32] Feel anything the way I do when I listen to the music. I know I love, uh, like I feel something, I feel connected and I didn’t feel connected. Like I strong admiration, like it is a solid album. The songwriting is on point. The lyrics are pretty amazing, um, as far as pop lyrics go, but it didn’t, it didn’t connect with me on that deep level where I’m like, Oh my God, this person, I, I could have a beer with this person.

[00:48:05] Uh, much way I could with George W. Bush. Just kidding. Um, but like, yeah, like, it didn’t, it didn’t connect in that deeper way, but I left it with a strong admiration as I always do. Like I have always known Taylor Swift as a, an artful song creator. Uh, just, I didn’t, it didn’t touch me.

[00:48:30] Christina: No

[00:48:30] Jeffrey: Oh, like the, like the Divines single. When I think about you, I touch myself, Brett. I wonder how many podcasts the Divines have even been mentioned on in the history of podcasts. Uh,

[00:48:42] Christina: I don’t want anybody

[00:48:45] Jeffrey: else mean nothing about you?

[00:48:47] Christina: touch myself.

[00:48:48] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:49] Brett: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:52] Jeffrey: uh, also Taylor on this album, well placed cuss words per our earlier.

[00:48:57] Brett: Yep.

[00:48:58] Christina: She’s finally started doing that. That, that, that’s this, this, this is, and, and it’s, Gawker actually wrote a, a Kelly convo wrote a funny thing about how like, she’s finally, she’s 32 years old and she’s finally learned to curse almost convincingly. And, and I think that’s accurate. Cuz the first time she, she used some of the, that she would curse.

[00:49:14] We were all like, Okay, this doesn’t, And you know, she curses in her real life, but it just, it didn’t feel right. It almost, I, I think that the Kelly convoy like, nailed it. Like it’s, they’re well placed. Yeah.

[00:49:27] Jeffrey: Awesome. Well, tell me something. What else do you wanna know? What else do you wanna say rather about this album? Because

[00:49:33] Christina: I, I, I mean, I wanna hear more from you. I mean, cuz I really, I really enjoyed it. Like I said, like it’s, it’s not, I think that, I don’t know, this was, this is a hard album to do in some ways because the last two were so great, Right? And, and brought in a whole new fan base. So in some ways I kind of do appreciate the risk a little bit of being like, you know, that you’re going to, they’re gonna be people like, like Brett who might have really connected with folklore and evermore, but are going to have admiration maybe for the art in this, but are not going to like, wanna listen to this record cuz they’re not gonna have the emotional connection.

[00:50:04] Um, but I, I kind of, I kind of weirdly kind of respect that. Like there’s, you know, maybe like, I think there’s a lot of us would’ve just loved to hear like Taylor and Deser do more stuff together. I certainly would. but I, I, I, the one song that really got me, and this is, this is the only one I’d really wanna talk about, but I wanna hear your thoughts, is Mastermind, which is the, the final track, um, on, on the main version.

[00:50:29] Um, and it’s track 13. And I think that it is, uh, it encapsulates, So I’ve, I’ve talked to before on this podcast, repeatedly, like I’ve done like psychoanalysis of her, which is unfair cause I’m not a doctor or anything. This is what we do. Um, where like it’s so clear that so many, like, she’s still so much of her psyche and things are wrapped up in like, the fact that she didn’t have friends when she was a kid.

[00:50:54] And also the fact that like, she is a very calculating and very strategic person and she used to get really upset when people would say, Oh, she’s calculating, or she’s this or that. And like, she would almost like treat it like, like people were slurring her. And it’s like, Okay, but you are, And that’s what I love about her.

[00:51:11] Like I love the fact that she’s. Not like, like Lana Del Ray is so cool and, and Phoebe bridgers are so cool and like they, it feels more effortless for him, you know, with Taylor that she’s never not tried a day in her life. Like she cares so deeply about everything, which. To me, part of the appeal with her, like she’s so type a, it, it, it’s, it’s endearing for me.

[00:51:32] I understand foul. For other people it might not be, but for me it is. But to have the song Mastermind where she’s basically talking about how, uh, it’s presumably about her, her, her current, like long term, um, uh, partner who they’ve been together for like six years, who basically, she’s like, I, I saw you and I basically constructed this entire situation so that we would go home together because I wanted to fuck you.

[00:51:55] And I put everything together so that it would happen. And you had, you know, thinking that you would have no idea that, that I put all these things into place. And then the, that, the final Stan is basically, he, he knew the whole time that, that she was doing all that and, and still kind of went along with it.

[00:52:12] But there is, um, a, a, a bridge, um, that I, that I think just like. It reformed every head can I’ve ever had about her, which is no one wanted to play with me as a little kid. So I’ve been scheming like a criminal ever since to make them love me and make it seem effortless. This is the first time I felt the need to confess, and I swear I’m only cryptic and maccabean cuz I care.

[00:52:36] Jeffrey: I am interested that there’s no, we’re talking about, you know, the, uh, the issue with the anti hero video, um, and her stepping on a scale that says fat and her, the judging self next to her kind of wagging a finger at her. You know, as of when we’re recording, that’s been edited out, the little clip, uh, where you

[00:52:54] Christina: That the fat part has been edited out. Yeah,

[00:52:57] Jeffrey: Um, in and in response to people going, Hey, that’s kind of a messed up way to use that. Um, we do not know yet if she will have a statement on this. Right. She has not had a statement. It may just be that kind of subtle removal of

[00:53:12] Christina: It’ll probably be that she, she, she almost never addresses things like that. Um, especially now, like she used to maybe be a little more comic, but she’s basically, she does very few interviews now. She doesn’t give statements like that. It’ll be interesting. She recorded Graham Norton, um, a couple days ago and, and I don’t know if he would bring it up or not.

[00:53:35] Um, you know, he might have had to agree not to. I have no idea.

[00:53:38] Jeffrey: So in her, in your experience of her, like she’s not someone who you’d be waiting, unlike a tweet storm, uh, from her, or an apology or a defense or whatever.

[00:53:48] Christina: Um, not anymore.

[00:53:50] Jeffrey: Yeah, so the comment is the edit, which is not nothing. I mean, it’s, it was gone by the

[00:53:57] Christina: It’s, it’s, it is, Yeah. I was gonna say, it’s a capitulation, right? Like, I mean, I, I know we have a good gratitude, but were there any standout tracks for you that like you found yourself listening to, um, more frequent.

[00:54:09] Jeffrey: I mean, not to be boring but fucking anti-hero, like it’s a great song like that. I have been walking around with that song in my head for days now.

[00:54:18] Brett: Yep. That’s the one.

[00:54:20] Jeffrey: Yep.

[00:54:20] Christina: No, I, I and I, she is notorious for not choosing good singles. That’s her first single. And, uh, she, she broke it this time. Like, she definitely, like, I, I agree. I think think she nailed it. Like I think the songs, the song’s a hit is a smash.

[00:54:36] Jeffrey: great. And then I’m embarrassed. I have not tracked the name on this cuz I have been listening to it just around the house, which is the one where she so nicely drops the F-bombs.

[00:54:47] Christina: Um,

[00:54:48] Jeffrey: Maybe you’re on your own kid. I can’t, I’m.

[00:54:50] Christina: yeah. Yeah, you’re on your own kid, uh, which is a track vibe, which is really good. Um, it might be on, um, uh, vigilante shit.

[00:55:00] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s one of those two. I like both those songs a lot. Oh wait, we got to ease. I’m looking at it now. We got question vigilante, shit, Karma and snow on the beach, whatever that means.

[00:55:11] Christina: Oh, still on the beach is, is weird, but fucking beautiful. Um, so, so that, that,

[00:55:16] Brett: Lana Del Ray.

[00:55:17] Christina: with Lana Delray, which is a great song.

[00:55:19] Jeffrey: that’s, that’s the one I think I’m thinking of.

[00:55:21] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, I love that.

[00:55:23] Jeffrey: Yeah. Awesome. Um, alright, well that was fun. I also like the, I like iTunes as little like motion album covers now and she’s got her little

[00:55:34] Christina: Yeah, I like that too.

[00:55:35] Jeffrey: It’s a nice touch.

[00:55:36] Christina: Yeah, I like that too. I like it too. Um, uh, and, and for any, uh, listeners out there, if you, the lyric videos that, that she did like this time around are, are pretty good. Um, she,

[00:55:46] Brett: Yeah, they really are. Yeah.

[00:55:48] Christina: the, the production, like it’s actually even higher than they were for, uh, um, folklore or evermore.

[00:55:53] But yeah, the lyric

[00:55:53] Brett: Did she make those lyric videos?

[00:55:56] Christina: I mean, she or her team does. Yeah.

[00:55:58] Brett: Okay, cool. Yeah, they are good. They were some of the best PowerPoint transitions I’ve ever seen.

[00:56:05] Christina: Oh, that’s what I’m saying. Like, like, like I look at it, I’m like, these are really freaking good. Like, like, like you’ve done good drone footage. I don’t like, I mean, I’m sure she doesn’t actually do it, but she, she art directs everything. Like, she’s like, Yeah. So thank you for ex for, for indulging us, Brett to talk way, way too long about Taylor.

[00:56:23] I appreciate it.

[00:56:24] Brett: this, this was the Taylor episode. You, you agreed, you agreed tacitly that we were no longer a Taylor

[00:56:32] Christina: I do,

[00:56:33] Brett: if we got to come back for major album releases. And this, this matters, this, this is a Taylor episode and, and I believe the title should be, This is Taylor Swift


[00:56:48] Jeffrey: Noted. That’s awesome. All right. Gratitude, grip, gratitude. Who wants to go first?

[00:56:56] Brett: Oh, oh, I’m

[00:56:58] Jeffrey: You ready? Go do it. Come on.

[00:56:59] Brett: I’m on this text buddy. Um, Tyler Hall made this app called Text Buddy that you can use as a service or you can load it up and pace text into it. And it basically just performs all kinds of transformations on your text. Uppercase, lowercase, snake case, Uh, and you can write your own custom converters for it.

[00:57:23] Uh, I have one that you can paste an entire objective c header file into it. Uh, and, and it will output, eh, nobody cares. But anyway.

[00:57:37] Christina: no, we care. Come on.

[00:57:39] Brett: Well, so, okay, so I made, you can, you can pace objective C method definitions into it, and it will output the header file code for you that you can just paste into the header file.

[00:57:51] And if you use it as a service, you can just select your methods in X code, hit the hit your shortcut for the service, and then switch your header, file and paste in the new method definitions. It’s simple, it’s easy, uh, it’s easy to write extensions for. It can do. I, I do not know offhand exactly how many conversions are built in, but it’s gotta be 50 plus.

[00:58:17] Um, as an honorable mention, and this came up in our discord, uh, Boo is a Mac app store app that is very similar. Uh, does text transformations personally, I’m a text buddy guy, but uh, I will link boo, uh, for anyone curious, anyone who works with text regularly and needs to, you know, sentence case or snake case something, uh, just on the fly.

[00:58:49] Uh, both of these apps will, will do the trick. Nicely.

[00:58:53] Jeffrey: Awesome. Um, who goes next?

[00:59:00] Christina: Are you ready?

[00:59:01] Brett: oh, oh. Can I, let me, let me say, let me say one thing. Uh, uh, set up, set up just announced a new app called Curio, and it is not the curio we talked about last week. It is a news aggregation app, and I’m pissed. I’m pissed that they took the name Curio. And now if you Google setup curio, you get something that is not the curio that has when we, like last week when we talked about curio, it was within days of Curios 20th anniversary.

[00:59:40] Like, uh, like George went indie and started developing curio full-time 20 years ago. If anyone deserves the name curio, it’s George Browning. But,

[00:59:53] Jeffrey: there’s also a, there’s also a 3D printing design app called Curio,

[00:59:58] Brett: yeah, it’s a different space. There’s, that’s not gonna be on set app, like Set App focuses on Mac apps. And I, and I wish that they respected a 20 year veteran enough to not have a naming conflict,

[01:00:13] Christina: Who, who is the, who’s the developer behind it? Because I think that like

[01:00:16] Brett: uh, of a new app.

[01:00:18] Christina: Yeah.

[01:00:19] Brett: Let’s find out.

[01:00:21] Christina: Cause they’re the ones I, I, I fault more than set

[01:00:23] Brett: Curio set app silhouette 1 0 1.

[01:00:31] Christina: Yeah. Uh,

[01:00:32] Brett: That’s the printer. Okay, hold on. Journalism narrated is by,

[01:00:43] Christina: Oh, I know this. Okay. Yeah, so, so this is, this is a service. This is basically one app for all the news. This is like a, um, they, they claim they’re gonna, it’s sort of like Autumn, which the New York time spot where like, they, they read, um, uh, the news for you

[01:00:58] Brett: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t, At curio.io is the company behind it.

[01:01:07] Christina: right? So, so this started out, I think as like a web service iOS app. So I’ll give them a little bit of a pass. I didn’t realize that there was, um, uh, yeah, there’s not a Mac app. I mean, it, I didn’t, I didn’t know it was in setup because that’s clearly gonna be, um, Some conflict, but I think that when this app was created, it was probably like, not like they were like,

[01:01:30] Brett: in a different realm. Yes.

[01:01:32] Christina: Yeah. Cuz this is, I, I subscribe to Autumn, which is very similar, but I think better actually. Um, cuz I’ve, I’ve tested curio before and, and the, the readers that Autumn has are just better. Um, but, uh, but I didn’t realize this was part of setup now, which is, which is interesting. Cool.

[01:01:52] Jeffrey: Awesome.

[01:01:54] Christina: Uh, Jeff, do you are ready to go?

[01:01:56] Jeffrey: Yeah. I could go, I, I can’t remember if this has been used before or not, but, um, deck set, which is

[01:02:04] Christina: Oh yeah. We, we, we’ve talked about it, but not, Yeah, we, No, but, but it’s been years. We haven’t talked about it in years, so, so definitely please make it hasn’t been gratitude, so. Absolutely. Tell us more about Deck, uh, deck set. Cuz Brett and I are both fans.

[01:02:18] Jeffrey: deck set and there’s another app that does this. Brett, you might remember better than me, that you, because I think you’ve talked to me about

[01:02:24] Brett: there’s another app that does it not as well with the very job-like Interface Tech said is the more elegant version,

[01:02:31] Jeffrey: deck set is essentially just a way of, um, creating presentations like PowerPoint style with a markdown file. Um, and I have loved it for a long time. Um, I love, I mean, it’s exactly why you like, you know, if you like writing markdown or writing text files, it’s exactly why you like that. You don’t want to be distracted by design, which, like, , I just watched my wife put together a PowerPoint presentation and like the shit that she’d just be like, if I could only get it to do this one simple thing, I’d be done.

[01:03:03] Right? Like it’s, you know, it doesn’t have nearly as many features as PowerPoint, which I don’t fully. Um, but as someone, as someone who really, as much as possible, needs to not get caught up in how things look while I’m creating, um, , which is a big thing for me, it’s just beautiful. And you can make really good looking slideshow.

[01:03:26] There’s, there’s nice little templates you put your images in. Anything you wanna do, you can do. And, um, and the other thing is I’ve been going through and kind of archiving a, a project that I’ve been working on for about five years, just archiving some of the. Bits and pieces that are officially ready to be retired.

[01:03:43] And some of those are like presentations we gave to our funder or whatever. And as an example, I have one, uh, PowerPoint where I, I, you know, dragged in some photos and some images that were very large. Somehow this PowerPoint got to be, you know, two gigabytes, large and the same thing, uh, done in, in deck set where I’ve just got a folder with images that I’m calling, right, is obviously it’s just a text file and it’s a lot easier to kind of go back and revisit the past.

[01:04:13] It’s like future proof, right? Um, in ways that PowerPoint just can’t be. So I don’t know if I’ve done a good job of explaining it, but I really love it.

[01:04:22] Brett: here’s my deck set story. Um, I was at the Command D conference at Salsa Sego in, uh, of Apple Script, uh, fame and automator fame put on, and I was there as like a last minute volunteer ticket taker, um, like working my, working to pay off my ticket. And the keynote speaker canceled, uh, on the second day, or first day, maybe it was only a one day conference.

[01:04:53] Either way, the keynote speaker canceled and they asked me to fill in same day the keynote speaker spot, and. . And so I’m there with my laptop and I have maybe two hours to put together a presentation, uh, to try to wrap up the Command D Festival conference. And, uh, yeah, so I wrote it in markdown. I used deck set.

[01:05:23] I output a deck. I presented it using deck set on the, uh, on the projector. And it was a breeze, like for, for a quick and dirty, very good looking presentation written in with the simplicity of markdown syntax, uh, without any fiddling with font sizes or, or image placement or anything. Everything was just a breeze and, and I pulled it off.

[01:05:57] I think I made a pretty good presentation. Uh, but it was all thanks to deck set.

[01:06:02] Jeffrey: What, what got me to deck set was that like I, I was writing my PowerPoints in text files just to make sure that I had, or like a kind of a grasp on what it was. I was trying to say that it wasn’t too long and it was like, surely this can just become a PowerPoint presentation. And that’s where it, where it came in for me is like, so I also just recommended as an exercise, just try making a presentation with deck set and see what it’s like to actually just write out a little document and how much more for me, how much more concise.

[01:06:34] I was succinct, like all that stuff. It was just way, way better. I wanna also just add that they have a beta um, deck set for iOS that is

[01:06:45] Christina: Oh, nice. That I didn’t know about. Okay, cool.

[01:06:47] Jeffrey: yeah,

[01:06:49] Christina: That’s great. Yeah. So my, my experience with it has been, so for work I have to use Keynote or PowerPoint for a lot of things that I do just because there are like, um, either, uh, like requirements for style or other stuff. So for certain conferences you have to do that.

[01:07:04] But if I’m doing something that can be more low key, especially if I’m doing a lot of code with it, Dex said is great because it really does make inserting code blocks like that look good. One of the best ways you can do that. And, and, um, and that, that for me is, was, was kind of like the thing that kind of got me into it, um, was, uh, and then I remember bringing it to Brett, I think on this podcast and he was like, Oh yeah, I’ve known about this for years.

[01:07:28] I was like, Oh, I was brand new to it. But for me, the big thing was honestly beyond just kind of like the quick and dirty and like being. As you said, it is a great way of thinking more simply in a document, but for me it is way easier to embed, um, uh, syntax highlighted code samples with it than, than it is with Keynote or PowerPoint, where you have to do, you know, like a, the screenshot process and, and all that stuff.

[01:07:55] Like, it’s just, it’s a lot easier. And then if you need to make a change to the code, you’ve gotta redo another screenshot and all that stuff, which makes things complicated, which interestingly enough does is a, is a perfect segue to my gratitude, which is a new CLI tool from Charm, um, who we’ve talked about before, like they do gum and they do like the, the, the charm libraries.

[01:08:15] Um, like, like a bubble tea and other, and lip gloss. Like that help. Basically it’s, it’s a bunch of go library stuff that, um, make. Look, do really good looking cli um, tooling. Um, it makes stuff really pretty, but they just released this thing called vhs, which lets you generate terminal, uh, gyps or um, uh, movie files, um, with code.

[01:08:36] And so it is, um, it is great. So there’s this thing called schema, which. We’ll basically capture your output from a terminal in, um, like a high resolution kind of, uh, specialty format, um, that you can then share. You can either self host it or do their own thing. But the problem with schema is a, sometimes I actually need the video file and getting a video file from there format is a pain in the fucking ass.

[01:09:02] The same thing with trying to turn it into a gif. The other thing is that is fine if you’re wanting to actually type out everything yourself and capture it like it’s great, this is a little bit different. And then what it’s doing is you’re writing a script that is basically, they have this thing that they’re calling like dot tape, which is, which is like their, their, um, generative file.

[01:09:22] But you’re basically writing a script that is going to say, This is what I want. This text output and this recording to do so, I want it to, you know, this is the code that I want typed, This is how long I wanna pause. This is the response that I’m, I’m looking for, this is how I wanna interact with the response.

[01:09:38] You can customize the font. You can customize like the, um, the, um, refresh rate, you can customize like colors. Um, I, it’s been out for 24 hours, so I haven’t had a chance to play

[01:09:48] Jeffrey: This is

[01:09:48] Christina: totally in depth. But for a lot of the coding stuff that I have to do, like a lot for presentations or for demos or for videos, this is going to save me so much time.

[01:10:00] So, so vh it’s called vhs.

[01:10:03] Jeffrey: It’s amazing. And also in that kind of, obviously like thinking in terms of future proof, right? Or like, how can I revisit this in 15 years? Like maybe I’ve still got the gif, but in here you’ve got, you’ve written like essentially a little script, right?

[01:10:19] Christina: Yep, exactly right. Which, which exactly the point of like with Deck said is like, okay, cuz if I need to make a, a change now I just change that script. Whereas I don’t have to go back and rerecord the whole thing. I don’t have to recapture the whole thing. And what I don’t think will, uh, have talked about enough, and this is like the problem that they announced it yesterday and, um, I know their team a little bit because of, um, my previous shoutouts and, and I did a, um, actually a, a, a twitch stream with them, um, last week or week before last.

[01:10:46] Um, about, um, uh, sustainability and open source. And they’re really good people, but like, I think a lot of people don’t like understand like capturing terminal output is way more complex than it should be if you want it to be high resolution in like the right frame rate. Like I’ve gotten it down to a science.

[01:11:03] But it’s not easy if you want it to be big enough or if you want it, like to, to have everything work, right? Like, it’s not as easy. Oh, just, just use like a screen capture tool. Like, it’s like, no, there’s, there’s more involved than that. And so this, uh, is, is really gonna be great.

[01:11:20] Brett: When, when, Most of the times if I’m making a screencast for any, um, marketing purposes, I script it and, and it’s a pain in the ass to script it with, with Apple Script or whatever tool you’re using. Uh, so this kinda tool would be

[01:11:37] Christina: Yeah, you’re gonna love this. You’re gonna love using this for market and marketing stuff is really what this is designed for, right? Like, I would not do a full demo in this, obviously. Um, uh, this is not what it’s for, but if you need like, uh, like, like an animated j or, or even like a video, you know, kind of like of a few lines of code, but you want it to be high quality.

[01:11:55] You want it to be, you know, um, in other things. You can even

[01:11:59] Brett: smooth and without a lot of backspacing and pauses. Yeah.

[01:12:04] Christina: Plus, plus. What’s nice about this too, your output, not only can you output in GIF or mp4, you can also output as like frames in p and g. So, so I think what it’s doing under the hood is that it’s like using like a web scraper like Chrome and then basically doing kind of like, like generating the code based on your scripting and then kind of doing a recording in on that.

[01:12:24] So it’s automating, like you were probably doing something very similar, Brett, with the way you were scripting things with Apple Script. Um, I never got that involved. I was like, I’ll use Schema and I’ll do, you know, have some presets in, in screen flow, but I never like, did what you’re doing. But this is like, I, I think that this is, uh, this is pretty.

[01:12:46] Jeffrey: That’s awesome. I love it. Also, just love all of their stuff.

[01:12:49] Christina: Yeah, me too. I, I, I, I think that they’re branding everything about them. Like they’re, they’re really cool. I’m, I’m actually gonna meet them, um, uh, at a GitHub universe.

[01:12:58] Jeffrey: Oh, nice.

[01:12:59] Brett: so jealous.

[01:13:00] Christina: Yeah, I know. I wish you could be there.

[01:13:01] Jeffrey: Hey, that, that Twitch, uh, is it recorded somewhere?

[01:13:06] Christina: Yes. I will. I will find it in, link it in, uh, in, in the show notes.

[01:13:10] Jeffrey: Great. Awesome.

[01:13:13] Brett: I, I, I ran search link on VHS charm and it literally gave me a VHS charm bracelet like thing. I don’t think that’s what we want.

[01:13:29] Jeffrey: I don’t think so.

[01:13:30] Brett: find the right link.

[01:13:32] Jeffrey: Ugh. I’ll edit that. Yawn out. Sorry, Awesome. This was fun.

[01:13:40] Christina: Yeah.

[01:13:42] Jeffrey: All right. People get some sleep though.

[01:13:46] Brett: Get some sleep, Jeff.

[01:13:48] Jeffrey: I’ll give my

[01:13:48] Christina: Get some sleep. Uh, Brett and Jeff

[01:13:51] Jeffrey: Get some sleep. Christina and Brett, we got it.

[01:13:54] Outro: The is going down low.