Is there any such thing as a neurotypical? Our intrepid hosts discuss. Conversation styles, quality of presence, plus finding a therapist, tracking GitHub stars, and how to build the ultimate Markdown editor.
- It’s All All Gone Pete Tong
- Psychology Today Therapist Directory
- K.Flay — Inside Voices/Outside Voices (Spotify, Apple Music)
- I’m Glad My Mom Died
- LaunchBar (or Alfred, Raycast, what have you)
- Little Star
- My Ultimate Markdown Editor Wishlist
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That Particular Monster
[00:00:02] You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren and I am joined as always by Jeff Severns Guntzel and Brett Terpstra guys. How are you?
[00:00:14] Jeff: Hido hi, episode 2 95.
[00:00:16] New Teeth?
[00:00:16] Brett: I got new teeth. You? Nope. Okay. So our listeners, we don’t, we’re not doing video, but for the last year I had the four teeth in the bottom, right back of my mouth got pulled. So I haven’t been able to chew on the right side of my mouth for
[00:00:32] Christina: Oh, wow.
[00:00:33] Brett: Um, and I just got used to it. I, I got used to having all that extra space from my tongue.
[00:00:38] Uh, and you, you, your, your brain just accommodates, you know, you just start chewing with one side of your mouth. So now I have to like force myself to chew, but they put these teeth in, I got this bridge, this implant, and for, for people listening, I just like pulled my cheek back and
[00:00:54] Jeff: no, you did like the old comedy, like fish hook and the
[00:00:56] Brett: Yep.
[00:00:57] Yeah. And, and the teeth [00:01:00] they put in this implant, they put in is bigger than the teeth that were taken out. Um, I don’t know if you can see, but it comes in like almost a quarter inch further than the normal teeth
[00:01:13] Jeff: oh, jeez.
[00:01:14] Christina: Ooh, weird. So, okay. Now was that an accident or is that just like how they work or like.
[00:01:20] Brett: I complained about it and they explained to me that because of the way, cuz there’s two, uh, like whatever, screw posts, whatever they’re called implants, I guess. Um, and the way that they have to create a bridge that spans across these two posts, it has to be in a straight line instead of curved the way a, a set of teeth normally would be.
[00:01:42] Um, so I guess it’s unavoidable. I’m gonna give it a couple weeks and if it, if I can’t stop biting my tongue, like I I’m having to retrain the way I speak. Um, I’m, I, I, I tend to li [00:02:00] now if I’m not paying close attention, because my tongue is kind of like jammed towards the center of my mouth and it’s, it’s nice to be able to chew on the right side of my mouth.
[00:02:10] But honestly, I, I kind of miss not having teeth there at this point. , I’m getting, uh, as the days go by, I’ve only had 'em for two days. So I feel like I’m getting more used to them every day. Uh, we’ll see. Maybe I’ll just, maybe my brain will just adjust to this. No reality. Now,
[00:02:29] Christina: I think it probably eventually will. Um, they might have to do a thing where like they shave some of it down or whatever. I don’t know.
[00:02:36] Brett: if that’s an option, I’m all for
[00:02:38] Christina: I mean, they might be able to, I’m just, I, the reason I’m saying this is like, I know that they can shave regular teeth down, so I don’t understand why they couldn’t shave like an implant or something.
[00:02:44] Brett: Yeah. We’ll see what,
[00:02:47] Jeff: I went to the dentist for a crown and they gave me a 3d print of my teeth.
[00:02:51] Brett: oh, geez. What are you gonna do with 'em Halloween’s coming up.
[00:02:55] Christina: That is cool.
[00:02:56] Jeff: Well, my fucking family’s sick of seeing them. Uh, I had it on [00:03:00] my bedside table for a while.
[00:03:02] Christina: Oh
[00:03:02] Brett: my family’s like my family’s like that with the gallstones I got taken
[00:03:06] Christina: your wife is like, you put that in the house first. You get that off the bedside table.
[00:03:12] Jeff: it’s fascinating to look at. You never see it’s like a for, for those again, for this visual episode where retired, I have a full 3d printed version of my mouth and, uh, and I can just look at it and it’s like looking at me, uh, or at least part of me. And it’s like, where I know there’s bigger gaps in my teeth.
[00:03:29] I can locate him on the side. And like, it’s just amazing
[00:03:32] Brett: do you look at it while you’re flossing? So you can
[00:03:35] Jeff: Well, no, but it’s actually facing me. I I’m looking at it. It’s up on top of my monitor on a little tray. So they they’re staring at me all the time.
[00:03:43] Brett: So one of the benefits I was looking forward to with this whole quarter of my mouth being fake now was that I can’t get cavities there. What I didn’t realize is with a bridge like this, you have to floss underneath it. [00:04:00] So it’s not that I have a core of my mouth being, uh, like maintenance free it’s that I have a quarter of my mouth that requires different maintenance than the rest of my mouth, which I’m pretty disappointed about.
[00:04:12] Jeff: What is that? You bring the floss back to the back and you go under the teeth.
[00:04:16] Brett: there’s two posts in it. So you can’t just like scoop under it. Uh, you get this thing called, I think it’s called a bridge thread. And it’s like, it’s just a wire and you have to like get it between and around the post and like poke through at the bottom of your teeth
[00:04:33] Jeff: Wow.
[00:04:34] Brett: instead of going between the teeth, cuz it’s one solid piece.
[00:04:36] So you can’t just like floss down and into it. You have to dig underneath it. And I’m not excited about that.
[00:04:43] Jeff: A, uh, a, a elderly British friend of mine told me that it used to be custom on the island, uh, for a wedding gift in rural parts of the country to give the husband or the husband and the wife, uh, to give them, uh, fake [00:05:00] teeth for their wedding, present a set of full set, full set of
[00:05:04] Brett: planning for the future.
[00:05:05] Jeff: I guess. So I don’t understand it.
[00:05:08] I didn’t fact check it. This lady’s generally very reliable,
[00:05:12] Brett: everyone should have at least one elderly British friend.
[00:05:15] Jeff: mm, this is the best.
[00:05:16] Brett: Everyone should have at least two Austrian mates. Sorry. That’s a reference to a movie that neither of you will ever see, but it’s all gone. Pete Tong is a fucking classic and everyone should watch it. At least once
[00:05:29] Christina: Okay.
[00:05:30] Jeff: all right.
[00:05:30] Brett: I’m adding, it’s been in here before, but I’m adding Pete Tong to our show notes right now,
[00:05:35] Jeff: Okay. He is. Can you hear him clicking? He’s not bullshitting.
[00:05:38] Brett: all gone Pete to such a good movie.
[00:05:41] Jeff: Spelled like it sounds,
[00:05:42] Brett: It’s a great movie. I’m telling you His girlfriend, his girlfriend tells him he should maybe write a book about his life and he says, oh yeah, that’s brilliant. Wait, that’s a lot, maybe a pamphlet or a brochure. I get that. I, I feel you all right.
[00:05:59] Mental Health Corner
[00:05:59] Brett: Should we do some mental.[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Jeff: I guess so.
[00:06:01] Brett: Feel like we segued
[00:06:02] Christina: I, I, I think, I definitely think we segued into it.
[00:06:05] Brett: Who’s up first.
[00:06:08] Christina: go first. Uh, because mine is not massive. I, uh, so I mentioned this ironically in an Adri last week that I’ve been like having some indigestion and I, I think I have an ulcer is basically what I think it is. And so this isn’t really mental health per se, but it is like my health, which affects my mental health.
[00:06:27] So, so like the last few weeks, this has been a weird thing where I’ve never really had this where I have like, um, like really bad, like all day, like indigestion. So how it started was I’d been at a friend’s house. I hadn’t had much to eat that day. I ate some stuff. I had some wine and then I woke up like eight hours later and I threw up and, but I didn’t throw up, you know, because I was like drunk or anything.
[00:06:52] Like it was. That thing where sometimes I don’t know if you’ve ever, either of you ever had this, but sometimes you do get like indigestion where like all [00:07:00] of a sudden you wake up and like, your mouth is full of saliva. And you’re like, I have to throw up because there’s gas or something in my stomach and that happened.
[00:07:09] But then it continued to happen for like three more days and I really couldn’t eat anything. I couldn’t keep anything down. I just felt terrible. And I felt like, you know, it was like, like lower than normal indigestion, but not like a stomach ache. And it’s, it’s continued and it got better, but now it’s like worse.
[00:07:26] Like I’ve had a lot of Tums I’ve been taking like over the counter things and whatnot, but, um, and things were better. I had one instance at my parents' house for one day, but, um, then it, uh, was, was better after I was, I was taking some like, uh, some Pepsi or something, but I ran outta pep, so I have to get more pep and it’s like back and it is.
[00:07:47] Not great. Like, I, I, I I’ve forgotten, like, it’s been a while since I’ve had any sort of like physical health problem, almost all my problems have been like hidden. So I, you know, like mental and, and so [00:08:00] I’m like, God damn, this sucks. So I’m gonna have to find a, a, a gastro, um, to, to go to and like get checked out.
[00:08:07] But it’s one of those things that, that can make you tired and like, make you not feel good. Like otherwise when like your body like, feels like it’s, you know,
[00:08:15] Brett: Right. And, and I think, I think that’s under underrecognized is that chronic pain of any kind, even short term has a major effect on, because it affects your sleep. It affects your diet, it affects your overall pain level, uh, which all affects your mental health. And that absolutely is a valid part of the mental health corner.
[00:08:37] Uh, any kind people who are like, uh, deal with like extensive chronic pain or chronic fatigue. Yeah. That’s that takes a real toll on the mental health.
[00:08:48] Christina: Yeah, no, and, and it, it, it doesn’t like, and obviously mine is, is, is very minor compared to those things, but it does. But I think that that’s a great point, Brad, and that, that I think was what it kind of got me thinking about, which is that a lot of times, [00:09:00] I do think sometimes like, if you’re your other health is not good, then that’s going to make everything else better worse.
[00:09:07] And, and I think on the flip side, right, like they’re almost, they’re these terrible self, like fulfilling things is that if you have like, your mental health is not good, then you’re less likely to take care of your physical health. And like, it’s this, it’s this terrible, like self perpetuating motion
[00:09:21] Brett: Yeah. And may maybe even vice versa.
[00:09:23] Christina: Yeah, exactly. So that’s
[00:09:25] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Um, So I had, I had, I had, I had an additional thought for this and I lost it. I lost it because I was working really hard to actively pay attention to what you were saying, which is a problem I have, like, I will start thinking about my response and the, the person I’m talking to will continue on with their story.
[00:09:47] But meanwhile, I got stuck on this, this part I wanted to respond to and I missed. And when I edit our podcast, I always realized that I’ve done that. Like you’ve gone on, you’ve gone on and shared something important, [00:10:00] relevant, uh, noteworthy. But I got stuck on something. You said like two minutes earlier.
[00:10:06] And that’s what I respond to when I like derail the conversation. And it drives me nuts to hear like my own habits when I’m, when I’m editing this show. So I apologize for all the times I’ve done that and probably will do it in the future.
[00:10:19] Christina: Hey, that’s okay. I mean, I, I, I actually, I, for one, like, appreciate the, uh, the self-awareness there because I think most of us probably do that. I think that’s one of those truisms. Um, again, I, last week I quoted something from, um, invisible monsters, my, one of my favorite books, which has not aged particularly well in certain aspects, but I still love it, uh, where, like, you know, the postcards they send out, which are, are, again, these, these sort of trite things, but, but some of them are, are good.
[00:10:45] Like one of my favorite quotes, but there’s one where it’s like people, you know, ask you how your day is so that they can tell you about theirs.
[00:10:52] Brett: Yeah,
[00:10:53] Christina: And there’s, there is a certain truth to that. I think where a lot of times we are thinking about our responses and our own things, or waiting to say our next thing and not [00:11:00] always like active listening.
[00:11:01] This is my short, my, my long-winded sorry, this is my long-winded way of saying that yes, active listening can be difficult, but it’s especially difficult when you’re trying to think about what you said next. Did you, did you remember what you were gonna say?
[00:11:12] Brett: No, but I saw, I saw, uh, an Instagram meme the other day that, that basically, uh, to paraphrase the conversation between neuro two neuro divergent people is basically just a series of that reminds me of the time where none of it relates to the story. The person just told, it’s just like a constant, like, well, that reminds me of, and I’m like, yeah, that is, that’s how I actually prefer to converse.
[00:11:38] I feel like there’s a lot of, there’s a lot communicated when you share personal stories and some people feel, they look at that as like, oh, you’re making it all about you, but actually that’s how I relate to what you’re saying. It’s I find a connection that I can latch onto. And if my connection. Offend you [00:12:00] or it’s wrong, then I want to hear why your experience is different.
[00:12:04] Like that’s, I put it out there for the purpose of like, trying to communicate, it’s my way of saying, is this what you mean? Um, and, and some people don’t deal with that. Some people like L my girlfriend, um, have learned to communicate with me in that way, uh, to hear it the way that, I mean it, uh, but, but yeah, when you’re, when you’re talking to a neurotypical that can, that can sometimes not go so well.
[00:12:29] Christina: Yeah. Although I think that most neurotypical people are like that too. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, like, I I’m I’m at this point now, I don’t know if anybody is neurotypical to be completely
[00:12:37] Jeff: Yeah, I was gonna say, I don’t know if I even believe in the, the, that particular monster.
[00:12:42] Christina: yeah, because I think that most people, uh, are, are that way. And I, I think that what you just described, if anything, I would actually describe that as a fairly common response to say that you relate to people by being able to, you know, make comparisons in your own experiences and.
[00:12:58] Brett: if that’s true. I don’t know if [00:13:00] that’s true. I can’t prove it either way. All I know is what’s true for me and, and it’s true for me, so,
[00:13:05] Christina: that that’s, I think that that’s true for me largely is not universally true, but like, I think that a lot of times, like one of my first instincts, especially when talking to people is to try to find a thing I can relate to if only, not so much for myself, but, but oftentimes for them to be like, oh, you know, I, I, I know what you’re saying.
[00:13:22] I have empathy or whatever. Right. Like, whereas I would think that if I, I think that, so again, like, I, I, I think terms like neurotypical and a neurotypical are, are not necessarily even helpful at this point. But, um, but I do wonder like, if, if, if you were going to go on that spectrum, I think that if people who have a hard time with empathy, that might not be a thing that might even be aware of, if that makes any sense where they could even make that connection of this is similar to this thing with.
[00:13:54] Brett: So maybe, and, and maybe your life is similar to mine in that you [00:14:00] have attracted and curated people in your life who can relate to you in those ways. Um, there is a world out there that was designed by neurotypicals. Um, that is why those of us who are neuro divergent often have trouble. I mean, it’s, it’s what makes us, it’s what makes school hard for us?
[00:14:24] It’s what makes work hard for us. We have extra challenges because this neurotypical world was not designed for us. Um, and this is especially true with like autism, but, but ADHD, for sure. Um, like there, there, those people do exist though.
[00:14:42] Christina: oh, no, I know they do. I, I, I
[00:14:43] Brett: we self-select out of those
[00:14:45] Christina: Well, no, and I know they exist. I’m not trying to say that. What I’m saying is my experiences, and this is why I, I, I guess I am neuro diversion, but I’ve never identified that way because for most of my life and, and even now, like I could I’ve existed [00:15:00] in, in primarily neurotypical spaces where I’ve worked with a lot of neuro diversion people, obviously, but I’ve also been in very neurotypical spaces that are very common and like excelled in those spaces.
[00:15:11] Right? Like, like I think I have,
[00:15:13] Brett: at masking.
[00:15:14] Christina: well, not just masking, but I think I’m actually good to be completely honest. I think I’m good at understanding social cues and social scenarios, regardless of what person I’m with. I don’t think that’s masking. I think that’s like, if anything, like, I, I just understand instantly what the social dynamic of something is.
[00:15:30] Brett: You info dump though, which is not a neurotypical thing. That is an atypical thing to
[00:15:38] Christina: Oh, sure.
[00:15:39] Brett: you know, something about something it’s a it’s and in your case, like, you know, so much about so many things, like someone hits a topic, you know about, and you will dump, you will, you will info dump and, and it can make neurotypical people uncomfortable.
[00:15:54] It can make ADHD, people like me lose focus, but,
[00:15:58] Christina: good. No, totally. No, no. And [00:16:00] I’m again, like I’m not, I’m not claiming that I’m like not normal. So what I’m saying is
[00:16:03] Brett: and I’m not claiming to give you therapy.
[00:16:05] Christina: well, I’m, I’m just saying like, in these, in these situations, like I think what you were describing as trying to find like similarities, I actually think that’s a fairly common neuro neurotypical skill to try to find common commonalities.
[00:16:18] Brett: So there’s this line. We can, we, we won’t drive this into the ground, but there’s a difference, like for me, someone will tell me a meaningful story. And instead of me, I believe the neurotypical response would just be to say, I hear you. That’s, that’s really rough, or that’s really meaningful in its way.
[00:16:41] And my response instead is to say, yeah, one time when I was, you know, 25, this happened to me and it’s not, uh, just in a pure, conversational, uh, as a gambit, it doesn’t really indicate, [00:17:00] necessarily understanding, especially if what I say isn’t. Obviously correlated. Uh, I found people like Jeff here. Uh, they hear me do that and he rolls with it.
[00:17:15] Like I think he understands, I think he speaks the way I do. Uh, but people like my mother, uh, will, will worry that I’m making the conversation about me when they just told me something that was meaningful to them. And my way of acknowledging that it was meaningful was to find a personal story that relates.
[00:17:35] But, uh, but for my mom, it, and if anyone’s neurotypical, it’s my mother. And that’s why like, life has been rough. Uh, cuz she does not understand like what I go through and uh, and, and she sees it as me making it about.
[00:17:51] Christina: Yeah. Okay. I can understand. I can actually see both of those things and I guess, yeah, this is, this would be the difference. I think that, I guess [00:18:00] I, I, I, I think that most people do actually act like you, nor even people like your mother, where they would in their mind find a similar situation. They might not share it at that moment because that might not be the right response.
[00:18:15] If that makes sense.
[00:18:17] Brett: Yes, I appreciate that. You think, you know how neurotypical people
[00:18:21] Christina: Well, I I’ve spent a
[00:18:22] Brett: as neurotypical?
[00:18:23] Christina: I mean, I’m not neurotypical, but I’ve, but I’ve been around enough neurotypical people and I’ve, I’ve. I do feel like I understand how neurotypical people act, cuz I’ve been, that’s been my primary existence. Like my, my, my family is completely neurotypical, so, so I know, I know the response
[00:18:39] Brett: up against it. Yeah.
[00:18:40] Christina: Yeah. And, and, and I don’t like, I know I’m, I’m neuro diversion, but I’m, but I’m like, but I, I understand that this is what I’m trying to say. Like, I understand the social scenario where if you say what you’re feeling, how they’re going to react and why they would react that way. I also completely understand why they would react that way.[00:19:00]
[00:19:00] Brett: and to be fair, like I can get along fine at a party these days less. So when I was younger, but yeah, I’ve gotten really good at existing in a more neurotypical, typical space. I’m not like handicapped. It’s not like everything I do comes across as like, uh, disabled in any way. Like I can be social.
[00:19:21] I can be well liked. Um, I can, I can even have deep conversations with people that aren’t like me. So it’s, I’m not saying it’s not possible. Um, it’s just, there are differences in the way we naturally communicate.
[00:19:35] Christina: Yeah, I guess all I was gonna say, and this will be my final thing, and we’ve gone way too long on this and you can edit out any, you can edit out any or most of
[00:19:42] Brett: Nope. It all stays.
[00:19:43] Christina: uh, is I think that most people, this is what I was going say. Maybe not for the reasons that you do, but I think that most people do cuz this is a truism and this is like a known like, like truism or afro. Right? This is, this is one of those things, which is that. Usually the [00:20:00] whole time someone else is talking, people are waiting and thinking about what they wanna say rather than listening to the next thing to say, like that is a truism and that is a, that is a neurotypical truism.
[00:20:09] So that’s all I was gonna say is that many people I think are, are thinking about their own experiences or their own relation thing while someone else is talking, they might not share that the way you did, but most people aren’t actively listening.
[00:20:21] Brett: And this will be the last thing I say on the topic, cuz yeah, it’s gone on. But um, that, that is probably one of those things that everyone can relate to. Every, everybody like has that for ADHD people in particular, it’s hard to, uh, circumvent that it’s hard to, it’s hard to bring yourself back. Um, I think it’s harder for ADHD people to, uh, to like see that that’s happening and, and do something about it.
[00:20:54] Anyway, Jeff, how’s your mental health?
[00:20:58] Jeff: Well, I it’s [00:21:00] interesting cuz I, uh, my mental health is, is it is what it is, but I’ve, I’ve really been thinking a lot about, um, the quality of presence. And um, thinking about that again, as you’re talking, uh, for me, quality of presence in the sense of like, I’ve just, I’ve done a lot of it over recent years, COVID excluded.
[00:21:23] Um, I’ve done some experimenting with myself in social situations where, um, where I actually. You know, work to not do the thing where that you’re describing, which is like, oh, that makes me think of a story, cuz I really, I actually quite love like story trading and I think that in certain relationships I have, that’s a norm and it’s, and it’s just lovely.
[00:21:48] Um, and I’ve found in many, many other situations that, um, I think I’m hitting the mark and I’ve probably missed it. And, and in missing it, my quality of presence [00:22:00] has, has degraded significantly in that conversation. And, um, and so I’ve experimented with kind of letting stories just end without me having, um, something to share about it, but in finding some meaningful and natural way to sort of mirror or, or just register that I’m, I’ve taken this in.
[00:22:22] Um, and I, and whatever, whatever sort of appropriate level of, of indicating, you know, I, I feel that the gravity of this or the hilarity of this or whatever it is, um, I actually, for me, the reason that’s difficult is because I, I am like, it’s like in my DNA, on my dad’s side, like. I get antsy in silences. Um, my dad and my grandmother, his mother always did.
[00:22:50] And, and always does, um, make sounds in silence whistle or Hmm. Or my, my grandma used to always go, oh, golly. [00:23:00] You know, like in any fucking silence, right. Including in really serious conversations when the silence felt meaningful, right. Like generative. Um, and so I , I learned this incredible lesson when I was working with my reporting partner, Samara Freemark for, um, American public media on a project.
[00:23:19] And we were interviewing a bunch of veterans. She was holding the, um, the shotgun mic, uh, because she could actually hold it without moving her fingers constantly and causing the audio to be completely terrible. And I was doing a lot of the question asking in the beginning of our, um, of our project. And after like one interview, she’s like gun.
[00:23:44] You do not leave any silence. Like you have to learn to just pause and see what happens. I’m like, okay, I’m in. I’m in, well, what do we do? And she’s like, I’m holding the microphone, which is always like very close to the source. Right. She’s like, after you ask a [00:24:00] question or after an answer, seems like it’s done, I’m gonna raise my finger.
[00:24:05] And until my finger goes back down, you’re not gonna say anything. I’m like, got it. Right. Like, awesome. And it was incredible. Like what I learned about, about gathering stories and, and what can happen when you actually, this is like classic. Like we would, you believe I’m a CIS white male, um, that when you actually leave space, um, what can happen even though it’s initially awkward?
[00:24:29] Is actually like transformative and, and magical, and actually does leave room for that person who just finished a story to go somewhere entirely different and that applies to conversations. Um, and so I’ve really tried and I’m not always good at it, but I really try to just leave space after someone tells me something, even though it triggers.
[00:24:47] And I really want to tell 'em this fucking story, cause this such a good story and they’ll know a little bit more about me and like, you know, whatever else, like, um, I’m really practicing that kind of quality of presence. So anyway, I was already gonna talk about quality of [00:25:00] presence, but what you both were talking about really raised that for me.
[00:25:04] And so I’m, I’m really just, I’m answering the question. How is my mental health by just saying that like, I. Thinking a lot about quality of presence and the ways in which my quality of presence can, can be degraded. Um, the ways in which I may feel it’s good and it’s actually not good. Is this really funny story from when, uh, my wife was pregnant with our first son, we were living in New York and we went to a, uh, we were part of a, a group, like a, a group of people that were about to have babies.
[00:25:32] Right. It was like a parent. Fucking club or whatever. And we were learning different lessons about, you know, the actual birthing process. And they did this thing where it was all men and women. It was all like straight couples where, um, the women were supposed to kind of just sit in a chair and the men were supposed to come behind them and, and put their hand on their back.
[00:25:51] And just, and just the, the instructions were just to be like, as loving and supportive, as you can, like send all that loving and supportive [00:26:00] energy through your hand, into their back. And we did the exercise and when it was done, it was time for the women in the group to share out. And one, after another they’re like, felt really oppressive. So, you know, we’re all going, like support, love, light babies, you know, and they’re just like, fuck, get this hand off of me. And that taught me a lot and I continue learning about quality of presence. So that’s my answer.
[00:26:25] On Interrupting Women
[00:26:25] Brett: I will say it was really hard for me to not interrupt you while you were talking, uh, to talk about how common it is for ADHD people to interrupt in a conversation. Um, And I’m like, I would just be illustrating the point and my conversation with Christina before you went Jeff, like I interrupted her so many times because I couldn’t like not say what was on my mind.
[00:26:50] Um, and, and I feel like shit about that. And, and honestly, it is easier for me to interrupt women than it is men. And that sucks. Like it [00:27:00] it’s like I
[00:27:00] Christina: That does suck. That is shitty. Honestly, that’s really fucked
[00:27:04] Brett: really is. And I’ve noticed this about myself. Like if I have something I think is important to say, I’m willing to cut a woman off where I will give a guy a little more time to finish his, his speech.
[00:27:18] And like, at least that’s what it seems to me in, in anecdotal situations. Like, and it’s something that I, I work on. Um, but, uh, it is a common trait for ADHD people to interrupt. And, and that is something that I could really use someone holding up their finger. And just like, just that signal would be like, okay, all right.
[00:27:42] Back down. We’re we’re just gonna keep listening. Um, maybe what I have to say right now might not even be relevant by the time they finish talking and that’s okay. Like, I need to learn to deal with
[00:27:54] Jeff: Well, and in the case of what you’re describing of interrupting women, more than men like to, to have [00:28:00] a bigger finger, um, that, that is up for longer, um, in those cases, I mean, that is something I think it’s really important. You’ve got that self-awareness and I think you just figure out like what, it’s just what you do on your computer, right?
[00:28:12] Like what’s the hack, what can I do to make sure that, um, and it, and I don’t, I have no shame in having to like, mechanize me, shutting the fuck up, like, you know, the idea of that finger or whatever else, like, because what happens is it quickly feels like something other than mechanized, it just feels like spaciousness, you know?
[00:28:34] And you know, , that’s the biggest thing in the world. Right?
[00:28:39] Brett: Suddenly, I feel physically bad now about admitting that I cut women off in conversation, I’m gonna leave it in the podcast because it’s fucking true. Like, it’s just, it’s true. But I feel, I feel physically bad now. Um,
[00:28:56] Christina: I’m sorry, you feel physically bad, but I’m glad that you admitted that. Right? Like I think that that’s [00:29:00] cuz honestly, like it’s one of those things, like I think that it’s a good thing to kind of like be aware of. Right. Like I
[00:29:04] Brett: oh
[00:29:05] Christina: that, you know, like, like I’m glad that you have that self-awareness to at least even say that, like, I think that’s really good.
[00:29:11] Brett: How am I ever gonna fix it? If I don’t acknowledge.
[00:29:14] Christina: Well, that’s exactly it. And which I think goes to what, what Jeff was saying, which is like, I think, and I’ve done something similar to Jeff, um, where I’ve also like tried to be more present. So I really appreciate what you were saying about that, because that encourages me to continue to do that because I, I, with, I think that silences can be beautiful, but like you, I also kind of have a hard time, like letting things be that way.
[00:29:37] Um, but like, but, but I think what Jeff was was saying, and, and this is my, maybe me completely undoing. What I was just proclaiming to do is I think applicable to even like what you were saying, Brad, about like you, you noticed that you are more open to interrupting women. Like you’re aware of these things.
[00:29:57] And if you can be conscious of it, [00:30:00] even if it’s hard and even if it takes time, even if you don’t have that, that physical cue of the hand going up, you can make changes in your behavior. Right. And then those BA, and then those changes, the more you do them, the more common, like the more, the easier it is to continue to do them.
[00:30:17] And the more they become habits. So, you know, just like, yes, it’s, it’s harder for ADHD people, but that doesn’t mean it’s impossible. And it doesn’t mean that, that, like, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like, like our, our, our, our, our mental, um, you know, challenges are, are, are not like crutches. They’re not excuses for us to act certain ways.
[00:30:38] They’re just not. So if that’s something you really wanna change, you can take the steps, which starts with acknowledging what happens to recognize it. And then, you know, think about it. Not feel actively bad, but to be like, okay, well, in the future, I’m going to be aware of this and stop myself when, when I, when I even, even if I, since it’s happening, stop myself, when I start to do it [00:31:00] so that, you know, the habit becomes something that you just do.
[00:31:03] Brett: Sure. Yeah. And, and, and I’ve been aware of this for a little while now. It’s I feel physically bad. Having publicly admitted it to thousands of people. , that’s just, that’s a, that’s a, you know, I’ll be, I’ll be very aware of it now. Um, so. So guess what? Uh, after, after months of talking about how I needed to find a therapist, I found a therapist.
[00:31:30] You Need a Therapist
[00:31:30] Jeff: Woo.
[00:31:31] Christina: Woohoo.
[00:31:31] Brett: first session a couple days ago. Um, like we, we did a meet and greet, uh, just kind of like an interview is this guy didn’t work for me. And, and I wasn’t sure, like he checked all the boxes, all the questions I had lined up. Uh, he had answers that were satisfactory. At the end of a little like 20 minute, uh, let’s just, let’s just chat kind of thing.
[00:31:57] I didn’t feel like he was smarter than me [00:32:00] and I really want someone smarter than me that can call me on bullshit. Um, cuz I’m, I’m a, I’m, I’m a smart guy. I’m also an addict. I’m very adept at deception and uh, in manipulation for sure. And like I need someone smart enough to just be like, Nope, that’s not right.
[00:32:22] That’s not true. What do you actually think about this? What are you actually feeling? What actually happened in that situation? And, and I wasn’t sure he could be that guy for me. Um, and I didn’t know if I wanted a male or a female therapist, so I, I put unspecified when I did the psychology today, search, um, But this guy came up and, and he has experience with religious trauma.
[00:32:50] He has experience with addiction. He has experience with bipolar and ADHD. And during our first session, he, like, he explained things about my bipolar [00:33:00] specifically. Like he listened to, um, me explain what my like, manic episodes were like and everything. And he was able to tell me things about my condition that I didn’t know before and that I double check to verify.
[00:33:15] And he knows what he’s talking about. It was, it was impressive. Um, he’s worked with, uh, with, uh, alcohol abuse and, and at like, uh, dual diagnosis clinic, um, in Minnesota. And, uh, he’s, he. He’s worked with seven day Adventists and some, some cult members that needed deconversion and yeah, so like he, he like, he immediately, when I talked about, um, my fundamentalist upbringing and he, without prompting was like, that’s abuse, you were abused.
[00:33:56] And I’m like, I needed to hear that from him. I needed a [00:34:00] therapist who understood that while outwardly appearing like a, leave it to beaver Cleaver home, my upbringing was terrifying. Um, and I wasn’t physically abused in any way. It wasn’t sexually abused, but I was emotionally abused and, and it affects me to this day.
[00:34:21] And, and I feel like this guy, I feel like he hit all the right buttons. Um, I, I. I’m no longer concerned about his intelligence level. He’s, he’s a smart enough guy. He’s at least as smart as I am. Maybe not smarter, but he’s, he’s smart enough. And I feel like this is gonna work. So I signed up to do weekly sessions for the next six weeks and we’ll see how things go.
[00:34:47] It’ll be the first time I’ve actually given therapy a chance.
[00:34:51] Christina: I’m I’m so, I’m so glad to hear that. And I’m so glad, like you gave him a second chance and that you didn’t just go on that kind of like initial gut feeling of, you know, he’s not [00:35:00] smart enough.
[00:35:01] Brett: Right? Well, I realized like I could probably shoot down therapists for the rest of time.
[00:35:06] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, I was gonna say, you’re probably not gonna find a therapist who smart than you to be completely honest.
[00:35:12] Brett: Well, and, and, and the thing is like, that’s a very subjective, like, no one’s sharing their IQ scores with me. And I don’t even know how much faith I put in the idea of a, of an IQ test. Like what he, he met all the requirements on paper that I could think of that I could possibly come up with. And this idea of like, is he smarter than me?
[00:35:36] It’s subjective. And I could use that to shoot down anybody. So I had to ignore that one and just accept that he met all the other requirements and give him a shot. And yeah, I think it’s gonna work out
[00:35:48] Jeff: For me, it’s not, it’s not smart. I mean, like generally speaking. Important that somebody be smart and, you know, a little wise even, right. Um, or w but clear eye is [00:36:00] actually what, for me, what matters the most is like the thing that you said where he was able to sort of reflect back at you, what, what you already knew, but you needed to hear, which is that your, your religious upbringing was traumatic, right? Clear eye enough, to be able to kind of see you in these, these ways that you’re presenting yourself, as you get to know each other. Um, it takes smarts for sure, but I think you can have the smartest therapist in the world and they might not see you, you know,
[00:36:29] Brett: we, uh, we, our, our first session was, uh, telehealth. Um, I will be meeting with him in person for our second session, just so I can get a feel for like the difference between a video session and an office session. Uh, but at the beginning of the telehealth appointment, he like stretched back, put. Fingers behind his head and like raised his arms up.
[00:36:53] And like, it was clearly to display that he had half sleeves on both arms, uh, tattoos [00:37:00] and, and it felt like I’m like, that is a weird flex for your first session with somebody to be like, yep. Look at me. I’m a tattooed, I’m a young tattooed guy. give me your faith and trust. And, um, that, that threw me a little bit, but, uh, I didn’t, I didn’t, I didn’t ask him about his ink.
[00:37:19] Uh, I feel like he, he probably would’ve had a lot to say about the meaningfulness. Like apparently he grew up on a reservation and, and like North Dakota, but he’s very white. I don’t, I don’t know the story there. I didn’t ask. Uh, maybe we’ll get into that at some point,
[00:37:36] Christina: I mean, maybe he’s not as white as you think. Like maybe he is like, you know what I mean? Like.
[00:37:40] Brett: maybe he is one of those people who actually is one 16th native,
[00:37:44] Christina: That’s what I’m saying? Like you never, or, or maybe even more than that, you don’t know, like people like race is race is a weird thing in terms of how much like it, you know, people look certain ways.
[00:37:54] Brett: I was told as a kid, I was one 16th native American.
[00:37:57] Christina: were all told that Brett,
[00:37:59] Brett: yeah, I [00:38:00] feel like that’s. And I began to realize that everyone around me thought that as well, and everyone was getting their DNA results
[00:38:06] Christina: I was gonna say, and we all realized it was lie. We all had that one. Great, great uncle who was, was native American. Like we all had that Cherokee or something. We all
[00:38:14] Brett: In my, yep, exactly. In my memory, I met my great grandmother who was Sue, um, and like Missouri Sue and, and I remembered that I’m like, yep, I’m definitely one 16th. Cause the math works out now. I’m not even sure that memory is real. Her name was ha, but that might have just been like a white trash nickname she had, I don’t, I don’t even know.
[00:38:40] I’m scared to ask,
[00:38:41] Jeff: I’m thinking of hoo-ha
[00:38:42] Brett: telling I’ve stopped. I’ve stopped telling anyone that I have any native American in my blood.
[00:38:49] Christina: Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I think the Elizabeth Warren thing should have all been like signed to all of us. You know what I mean? Cuz I think that was the perfect encapsulation of like that’s what happens when you believe that? And then you go to [00:39:00] school and
[00:39:00] Jeff: that was brittle.
[00:39:01] Christina: and it was, and then you get the stuff back.
[00:39:02] And like, because I, I don’t think that she was like intentionally trying to like fuck over the system. Like I really do think that she thought that she had that stuff and that she could claim those things and it’s like, mm, no, no. But
[00:39:15] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:39:16] Brett: All right. So we have a couple of subtopics in our mental health corner. First, I was gonna mention, like, I haven’t been manic for the last week, but I have gotten shitty sleep. I’ve been waking up between 12 and three every morning. And like aligned from a song will be looping in my head. I won’t be worrying.
[00:39:36] I won’t be stressed, but like my brain will just be latched onto a line. Like I’ve had Kayleigh’s new album running through my head, like nonstop and like just one or two lines. Sometimes an entire verse will just get looped in my brain and I wouldn’t call them racing thoughts. I would just call it my brain.
[00:39:55] Won’t stop latching onto this thing and fall asleep and I end. [00:40:00] Tossing and turning until like six in the morning when I finally get up. So I’m not like up all night coding. Like I would be if I were manic, but I am not sleeping. Well,
[00:40:10] Jeff: sorry. Sucks.
[00:40:11] Brett: also Kaya’s new album is fucking great inside voices, outside voices, if anybody cares,
[00:40:18] Jeff: I’m scared. I’m scared of the internet was the song
[00:40:20] Brett: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:21] Jeff: I delighted me.
[00:40:23] Christina: Yeah. I, I, I haven’t listened to it in depth. I’m still listening to a lot of Beyonce, but, uh, I did like give it one kind of go through and I really liked it. So, and because of you and because of this pod, I’m a okay. For this land. So
[00:40:34] Brett: So T T G I F is a song she does with Tom Morelo from rage against the machine and, and it, apparently she had the line in it at the, in the first verse. She says, I wanna rage against the fucking machine. And that was in there before they brought Tom.
[00:40:51] Christina: that’s nice.
[00:40:52] Brett: Uh, which is like, that was the song that like, yeah, you could tie into this one.
[00:40:56] And the whole thing uses like rage style, like weird guitar sounds and [00:41:00] everything. Uh, but the muck is the one that gets stuck in my head at night. Um, stuck in the muck, like, and it, it just loops in my brain and that song is a banger. Weirdo is an Anthem, but the muck that’s, that’s my pick for best track on the album anyway.
[00:41:20] All right. So someone just added book rec, I’m glad my mom died. What, what is that?
[00:41:24] Christina: It’s a okay.
[00:41:25] Jeff: Oh, I saw
[00:41:26] I’m Glad My Mom Died
[00:41:26] Christina: While you were talking, um, about, uh, your like experiences and, and needing to hear that you’d experienced abuse. And I’d actually meant to bring this I’m meant to put this on the list anyway. So I just finished reading a book called I’m glad my mom died. And it’s by Jeanette McCarty, who was a Nickelodeon actress in like the, the late, uh, odds.
[00:41:46] And, uh, she was on a show called I Carly. And then she was on a show with, uh, future pop star, Ariana Grande called salmon cat, which was like a spinoff of two shows, not great. Like these are like, you know, kids sitcoms, right. [00:42:00] And, uh, she quit acting. Um, and although she, she might, she says she might go back to it, but she, she quit acting and was doing this one woman show a couple years ago called I’m glad my mom died, which great title really fucking like, like that’s gonna get attention.
[00:42:18] Uh, but she wrote the book and it’s a memoir and. Look, I’m a little bit too old for the shows that she was on. I’m like aware of them, but I’m, I’m too old to really know much about that. So I went into this, reading it, and then I actually got the audible version, like listening to it, not with a ton of familiarity, the way that some people would buy a celebrity memoir where they’re like, oh, I remember, you know, this, this C actress from my, my childhood.
[00:42:41] Like, I don’t really have that relationship. And neither of you would have that relationship. So I think that this would be a good wreck and I still thought it was a really, really good memoir. Um, she basically talks about like her relationship with her mom who died of cancer when she. Like 21. Um, and how her mom had been the one who had pushed her into acting to [00:43:00] begin with, which she’d never really wanted to do when she was six years old and really was living vicariously through her.
[00:43:05] Her mom basically like started her on, uh, you know, having an eating disorder and, and encouraging, um, that sort of thing, um, at she thinks is maybe a way of control and some other stuff. And, and just some other really fucked up things that while she was growing up, like she would’ve said like my mom’s the best, she’s the most important person in my life.
[00:43:24] But then as she became like an adult and had to deal with things, she had to kind of like face the reality that she did kind of grow up in more of an abusive environment and in a really fucked up a lot of scenarios, but it’s, it’s a really, really good memoir. Like, I, I was shocked because. Usually these types of memoirs are like the Jamie Lynn Spears variety, which I did not buy, but I did pirate and was hot garbage.
[00:43:45] And I don’t say that because like, I’m like more team Britney than team other ones, like I’m team. That whole family is, is like white trash and sucks. But like, this was actually really, really good. And, um, I I’m gonna wreck it [00:44:00] for people to, to read or listen to, even if you have no idea who she is, it was a really good memoir of, you know, somebody who’s kind of gone through a lot of stuff, um, kind of the weird fame cycle, but also like grappling with their mental health and, and coming to terms with a childhood that was not what they thought that it was.
[00:44:16] Jeff: I don’t know exactly where this thing goes, but I, I, I do often think about how it’s not, it’s not one of the experiences that is, is like, is like, uh, socially appropriate to discuss, which is a relief. When a parent dies, a parent that’s been been, uh, complex, um, you know, uh, impact on, on your life as a child.
[00:44:39] Um, and that it doesn’t mean that you wished them dead, uh, but that maybe, um, there’s some relief from them
[00:44:47] Christina: Yeah, no, she talked about that in some of her interviews, because obviously she she’s been like, she’s done, you know, like the, like the press junk around this now that it’s like top of the best seller list, that’s probably only going to continue. Um, but people have asked, they’re [00:45:00] like, okay, so what about the title?
[00:45:01] Like, you know, and she’s like, look, it’s it’s I really mean it like a, yes, it’s provocative and it’s gonna get people to pay attention, which is true. She’s like, but is also accurate. And, and I think that I’ve earned the title. Like, I, I, I heard her say one interview that, and I was like, that’s really, I like that.
[00:45:16] I like her saying, I feel like I, my, my lived experience I’ve earned the title, but she also, George stuffs asked her on good morning America. He was like, well, what would your mom think of the title? Would, would you name that? And she was like, there wouldn’t be a book. If my. Was was alive. I wouldn’t have written the book.
[00:45:31] I wouldn’t have been able to, to do that. And I think it might have been in the intro, but it, no, it wasn’t in that it was, I think it might have been something with the Atlantic or something, but she like talked about like maybe she did, maybe it was something I just read anecdotally in the Atlantic that when people are giving like tips on memoir stuff, that, yeah, this is what it was.
[00:45:49] It was an anecdote in, in the Atlantic where the writer was saying that in, she was in a memoir class in college and the professor would hear people and say, you might have to wait until [00:46:00] people are dead to write that, because that is a very valid thing. I think there are a lot of people who can’t express their truth and how things really are really were.
[00:46:09] Until people have passed, which I think all of us can, can relate and experience that and know that yeah, there are things that we can talk about. Even if we talk about it on a podcast like this, that we know our parents don’t listen to. There are things you can’t put out there in the public until people are gone to really get into.
[00:46:25] So in this case, you know, she had to wait like her, her mom’s been, been dead for, um, probably a decade, but, you know, she had to wait, like she wouldn’t have been able to write the book and name it that, but it’s also. It’s it’s a provocative thing that will get attention, but she does actually sincerely mean it.
[00:46:41] You know, like not that she hates her mother, um, you know, she has complicated feelings about it, but to your point, Jeff, like she feels that relief that a lot of people have and don’t feel emboldened or, or open to say. And that was, there was a lot of discourse, uh, when the book came [00:47:00] out or leading up to its release where people were like very upset by the title.
[00:47:04] And then there was pushback from others who were saying exactly what you said, which is no, we need to acknowledge that these are things people feel and that it’s okay for them to feel that. And I think if you read, and I think if you read the book, you definitely understand, at least I, I got the impression and, and I, I would love, you know, you two write, read it or I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, you know, slide you a copy or whatever in your listeners.
[00:47:26] Yeah. Our book club, uh I’ll um, you know, I, uh, I feel like she earned the title, you know, like I thought it was I’ll also just, and then I’ll, I’ll shut up. but I thought it was really well written.
[00:47:39] She says that like, that’s what she really wants to do. She wants to be a writer or a director. She’s a very, very good writer. And I think that’s what makes this work. Even if you have no context for who she is as a person or as a celebrity, it’s one of those rare memoirs that I’ve read where I went. Okay.
[00:47:56] This was in some cases like hard to read [00:48:00] because it’s, you know, there’s a lot in here, but it was actually very, very well written
[00:48:06] Jeff: Awesome.
[00:48:07] Brett: I think I’m gonna write a book called I’m sorry. I died and then have it published posthumously and, and it will not, it will not be an airing of grievances. It will just be like, I’m just gonna be honest about how I felt about everyone and everything. Um, which by and large is really good. And maybe I don’t say enough nice things to people, but, um, given, given.
[00:48:32] Not famous enough to, for there to be like any real estate value to a memoir of my life. Uh, I feel like a post humus, uh, like just have it self published when I die. Like if I don’t, if I don’t check in every 30 days until it not to publish, it’ll just eventually just auto publish a month after my, my passing
[00:48:54] Christina: I’m kind of into that.
[00:48:55] Jeff: work, get to work.
[00:48:57] Brett: Alright, so, should we skip to gratitude?
[00:48:59] Christina: I think we could [00:49:00] just go to gratitude.
[00:49:01] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:49:01] Brett: do it. So I’ll go first. Can I go.
[00:49:05] Christina: You can absolutely go first.
[00:49:06] Brett: I’m picking launch bar this week, but with the caveat that I don’t give a shit, what you use, like if you are an Alfred person, if you’re a quick silver person, if you just like to launch things with spotlight.
[00:49:18] Yeah. Raycast for sure. Like anything, any kind of launcher fits the bill. I am, I’ve been a launch bar user since it came out, uh, which was in the, in the later days of Quicksilver. I switched from Quicksilver, like before round two of quick, silver Quicksilver has made resurgence, but before round two, I, I became, uh, back in God, like 2000.
[00:49:46] I spent like 2006, 2007, I switched to launch bar and, uh, and I just became a dedicated user, uh, Quicksilver kind of fell by the wayside launch bar, ruled the [00:50:00] arena. I became a hardcore fan and then Alfred came out and like everything about Alfred impressed me. I think it’s a great app. I have like, I am no qualm.
[00:50:11] I have no beef with Alfred. Uh, I just, I was already quick. So I mean, launch bar was already doing everything I needed it to do. So I’m a huge launch bar fan, but my pick can also incorporate Alfred Raycast, uh, Quicksilver, whatever you, whatever you want, whatever you like. They’re all amazing launchers launchers in general.
[00:50:36] Jeff: I went Alfred from Quicksilver and you went launch bar. It’s like, it’s not even a type of person. It’s just like, we all sorted where we sorted. It’s like a Pachinko. It was like a Paco machine,
[00:50:45] Brett: It’s just where you landed. Yeah.
[00:50:47] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:50:48] Christina: I I’ve done. I’ve done like all of them. So I, I went to launch bar first and I was launch bar and I still actually have, like, I still buy launch bar whenever, like it’s, it’s updated. I always buy it. Um, but then, but, but I have like a, a lifetime [00:51:00] Alfred thing. That’s primarily what I use. I recently started using Raycast a little bit and I like it.
[00:51:05] There’s some parts of it that I don’t love. Um, so it’s funny. Cause often how I do it, like, cause I have three different Macs, my work laptop, my personal laptop on my iMac. And so I typically have, um, like a couple of them alias. So I have, you know, multiples that I, that I could kind of switch between. So not, not like three at one time I would usually like two at one time to kind of figure out.
[00:51:29] And my only thing I think with, with sticking with. Historically has been that it had like a, a little bit more active, like third party community for extensions and things like that. I mean, obviously you, you can still do those things in launch bar, but, but Alfred for a while really kind of had the mind share.
[00:51:45] And now a lot of that seems to have gone to Raycast but use what you use, but I’m with you. I love all of them. And, um, for anybody out there, who’s a windows, user, uh, power toys, which is a, a free and open source thing that the windows team actually [00:52:00] builds on GitHub. Um, spiritual successor to the old power toys that came with like windows 95 and shit has a launcher, um, which is mapped to the, the windows space.
[00:52:13] Um, like, like thing that works that also has, you know, plugins that people can do and whatnot. So, uh, and, and I, I was sort of responsible for that a little bit because I showed, um, the, the guy who’s the lead of that project, um, an open source, um, Window launcher on, on windows that I had been using that I really liked.
[00:52:35] And, uh, and when they started building power toys, that was something that they wound up forking because the, that project wasn’t actively, um, being developed and, um, and, and used, you know, when they were building out the, the, the launcher and power toys. So, yeah. Plus one love launchers.
[00:52:51] Brett: Nice work.
[00:52:52] Jeff: that is the fourth or fifth windows 95, uh, like shout out on this show since I joined
[00:52:58] Christina: I love one does 95. What can I [00:53:00] say?
[00:53:00] Jeff: And also, have you noticed that the, the windows 95 launch footage has been kind of moving around Twitter again, where the. Are all dancing, uh, as like which, which one’s had cocaine. Um, . Yeah, but, but especially the big guy in the middle.
[00:53:16] Christina: bomber, come on, man. You know, he’s the one that you, he’s the one we most
[00:53:20] Jeff: like, he’s like Craig Finn from the hold steady. His arms are flying and anyway, sorry, but windows 95, go get 'em.
[00:53:27] Brett: quick, quick, quick. Subick I just gotta throw in here. Astrol app, have you guys seen astrol app.com?
[00:53:35] Christina: I
[00:53:35] Brett: It’s a way to tag, add notes and organize your GitHub stars. Like we all star repos. We’re like, yep. Let’s start this repo. And we’ll remember it later, but you get like Christina, you have hundreds of stars
[00:53:49] Jeff: I have this problem.
[00:53:50] Brett: and to keep track of them, all Astro app is like a, it’s like Pinboard for GitHub stars.
[00:53:57] Christina: Huge,
[00:53:57] Brett: I’m just gonna leave that in the show notes.
[00:53:59] Christina: Leave that in the show [00:54:00] note. Yeah, that’s a huge one. There’s also a, a, um, Chrome extension or, or edge or Firefox, whatever, an extension of everything. But safari, because safari is safari, um, that is called like little star that will also make it a little bit easier for you to organize your stars.
[00:54:14] But astrol is great. You can also self host. Astrol like, they’ve got their hosted thing, but that sometimes has issues, but you can host it yourself. I think there’s even a Docker container. So, um,
[00:54:25] Jeff: Oh, my God. Astro’s amazing. I literally just
[00:54:28] Christina: yeah, yeah, no, no, it, it
[00:54:29] Jeff: there I am.
[00:54:30] Christina: Yeah, it’s really good. I’m a very big fan.
[00:54:32] Jeff: Wow. Needed. Needed. All right. Brett,
[00:54:37] Brett: you got something for us.
[00:54:38] Christina: Okay. Yeah. So I have, I talked about Canva before.
[00:54:43] Brett: Oh
[00:54:43] Jeff: the design
[00:54:44] Brett: two ADHD people.
[00:54:46] Christina: Yeah. The design
[00:54:47] Jeff: app. No, I don’t think you have not. What, since I’ve been on.
[00:54:50] Christina: Okay, so I haven’t talked about it. Okay. So Canva, um, is canva.com. It is a website web app. There is a Mac app that I think is basically just an electron rapper, which [00:55:00] is fine. Is, um, it’s a subscription. I, I don’t know how much it costs cuz I’m on, somebody’s part of somebody’s team plan, but, but it’s, it’s actually very reasonable.
[00:55:09] And if you do a lot of design stuff, like if you’re having to create YouTube thumbnails, for instance, or social media banners or other things, or even just other kind of Photoshop, like stuff, it is amazing. And it is a really, really good tool. Uh, it’s really easy to use, but is also really powerful. And the thing that I really like about. Uh, is that I’ve used. So for instance, I have to make like thumbnails from my YouTube videos every week and I’m in front of a green screen. And you would think that we’re moving, uh, the green screen from your background would be a fairly easy task. Uh, I have Photoshop, I have affinity photo. I have, you know, all these, uh, you know, pixel, I have all these, these things that I pay for, you know, latest version of creative cloud, all this stuff, none of them do it as well as the builtin, as like the free thing for Canva where it’ll remove your background for you, whether [00:56:00] it’s a green screen or something else, it’s actually incredibly, incredibly good, but they have a lot of these templates.
[00:56:05] Some of them are premium. So you have to be part of, you know, like you have to be part of their subscription to do it. You know, they’re submitted by others, but it’s, it’s a really great, just like, kind of. Design app for dummies. And, um, honestly, like I look at it and I’m like, you know, this is eating Adobe’s lunch in a lot of regards in terms of like things like Photoshop express and stuff like that.
[00:56:27] I’m, I’m a really, really big fan. So CAMBA is my pick, cuz I’m actually have, I’m gonna have to use it in a few minutes. Um, I’ve been very happy with the results I’ve been getting from it, but it’s also easy to use. It’s a lot more advanced than you would think with these sorts of design tools. It’s not gonna be good.
[00:56:41] Like obviously if you are a professional designer, you’re not gonna love everything about this, but if you need to do something quick and dirty or you just need to like make something like an infographic or, you know, a graph or like some or other sort of thing, you know, for, for work or for something it’s really, really good.
[00:56:58] I’m a really, really big.[00:57:00]
[00:57:00] Brett: I am. I am very comfortable in, um, design applications. Uh, I especially affinity stuff these days, but I grew up on, uh, Adobe and, um, I would probably immediately run into the limitations of this, but there’s so much shit I do that. I just need a quick and dirty, good looking. I need a good looking cover photo for a blog post or a podcast episode, and it could be perfect for that.
[00:57:31] Christina: that’s what this is perfect for.
[00:57:33] Brett: Al works for a yarn shop and she handles their social media and she has, she has dug in and learned a good amount of like Adobe, uh, not Adobe, uh, affinity photo in order to be able to create good looking promos for them. This could actually like I would split the cost of a, the, a yearly pro account is 120 bucks.
[00:57:59] That’s not[00:58:00]
[00:58:00] Christina: No. And, and, and I think it’s $150 for, for, for a teams thing, uh, for, for the first five people. So, you know, if, if, if each of you want, you could split an account or you could like, you know, like if you wanted to share something like it’s it’s, um, it’s so I I’m on somebody’s teams account. It’s really good.
[00:58:16] I think for, for both of you, it’d be good. Like for again, I’m fairly comfortable with design tools, not as comfortable as you are, but I’ve used all of these things forever. But when I was going to like, make a YouTube thumbnail, you know? Okay. So I have to remove the, the, the background and that’s. More challenging than it should be, because for whatever reason, the AI on, on can is, is better.
[00:58:37] It just, it’s better than Photoshops. It is. That’s a flat out, that’s a flat out fact. Um, and then, you know, I need to add in like the various elements and I need to, to do, you know, apply certain things, you know, to, to get the, the coloring, right. Or the gradient or this or that. And like the font and like, you know, it takes all this time versus browsing through finding a template that I can customize to my liking and, and then just [00:59:00] snapping it out and I’m, I’m not gonna lie.
[00:59:01] Like I I’m much, I’m lazy and it looks good and I’m happy with it. You know what I mean?
[00:59:06] Brett: nice. Yep. I’m into it.
[00:59:08] Jeff: Yeah. Awesome. Uh, my, well, first of all, I’ve been playing with astrol here and you know what I wish I could do. I wish I could, I could, I could tag it with a certain tag that would cause it to be sent to Pinboard. That would be like an amazing thing. Um, but it’s so good.
[00:59:27] Christina: we could write an integration. There might be a way to do an integration.
[00:59:30] Jeff: It is so good. And it’s viewer when I click on the various things that are starred is just really well done. And man, thank you. This is awesome. Okay. Uh, my pick is simple. It’s a very old pick it’s by word, like, uh,
[00:59:44] Christina: Oh, yeah.
[00:59:45] Jeff: I don’t know if you ever used right room back in the day from, uh, Jesse, how do you say his last name?
[00:59:52] Gross jeans.
[00:59:53] Brett: Gross chain. Yeah.
[00:59:54] Jeff: Um, who of course did bike, which has been, uh, I think was a unanimous [01:00:00] recommendation on this, um, podcast. Um, and uh, oh my God. What am, how am I not thinking of the thing that I use all the time? Task paper. Yeah, duh. Anyway, so awesome. Right. Room was great. I remember I used it, man. I lived in New York when I used right room, uh, which was like 2004, I think.
[01:00:20] And you could just like, I mean, you will both know this, but you just, you know, open this app and it’s just a big black screen with green type. I mean, you could add, add a couple themes. That was the one that came up and it was just so lovely of an environment to write in. And so anyway by word, when right, you can, I think technically run, um, but by word became my replacement for right room long, long, long time ago.
[01:00:42] I mean like a decade or more ago. Um, and I’ve kind of just let it go by the wayside. And then recently I had this just like desperate need to write and focus and I. Popped it in made it full screen and was just able to write. And, um, and ever since then, I’ve been keeping it up [01:01:00] as my sort of note taking app, uh, because it’s just such a lovely environment to write in.
[01:01:04] So by word, still, still going, still going strong. I actually don’t know the last time it was updated, but still going.
[01:01:12] Brett: I love about byword is keyboard shortcuts, uh, like byword followed the text mate mentality of like, we’re just gonna give you a blank screen with no buttons. Uh, but we’re gonna give you keyboard shortcuts. It was the first time I had the command option up arrow to gradually increase the selection.
[01:01:31] If your cursor on the page and you hit command, option up arrow, it’ll select the current word, hit it again. It’ll select the current sentence, hit it again. It will select within like parentheticals or the current paragraph. Hit it again, and it’ll select the whole document and like that kind of, that kind of, and, and like control, command up and down, I think was, it was the first time I saw that for moving lines up and down without having to select stuff like that.
[01:01:58] And, and that [01:02:00] became part of my. Space, my minimum viable product requirements for a markdown editor was that it had that kind of power without having buttons for it. Uh, that kind of like under the surface, like it can do exactly what you need it to do in any given time without looking like Microsoft word.
[01:02:22] Christina: Yeah, for me, my number one thing with a markdown editor and, and it’s still hard for me to find it to be completely honest is when I was select text and I hit a bracket. I don’t want it to delete the text. I want it to surround the text in brackets.
[01:02:35] Brett: absolutely. That is. And I’m pretty sure byword does that.
[01:02:38] Christina: sure it does.
[01:02:39] Brett: if you’ve played with NB ultra at all, uh, or even multi markdown composer, really good with auto pairing, um, of, of brackets, parenthesis, uh, backs for like code spans. Uh, once you get used to writing and then selecting and hitting the, the surrounding bracket, [01:03:00] uh, it’s hard to go
[01:03:01] Christina: It is. It is like, I, I, I found a, I found a workaround for vs code that now doesn’t quite work and I have to figure out another workaround again, but it’s frustrating. Right. So, you know, like mate was so good for so long and I stuck to it for years, partially, honestly, because of like that sort of thing, because I was like, It does the shit that I need it to do.
[01:03:21] And I got so used to being able to select text and hit, you know, the Modi and not have it delete it, you know, that I was like, like this ruins it.
[01:03:31] Brett: it’s the first thing I test when I open up a new markdown editor to see if it’s something I care about is I’ll select text and hit a, hit a double quote. And if it surrounds it in double quotes, we can keep moving. If not, I’m done, I’m out. Like that’s just basic care of it’s basic user care right there.
[01:03:49] Jeff: totally.
[01:03:50] Christina: no, but yet I also understand the challenge because you’re like building a multipurpose text editor that isn’t going to be, you know, the response that the most people want. But if you’re [01:04:00] writing the markdown, you definitely do. And it’s funny. I think that I probably do that as a test as well. Brett, probably because you do, because we probably talked about it at some point in the last 15 years and I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense.
[01:04:12] Brett: I’ll see if I can find, I wrote an article at some point, uh, my ideal markdown editor and I laid out a list of requirements that, yeah, my mark, my ultimate markdown editor wishlist, I wrote it back in 2012 and people still contact me because they were, you know, they started working on a new editor and they took these requirements into account.
[01:04:40] Uh, and, and I still, I stand by everything in this. In this article, uh, which includes auto pairing and wrapping. And if you start a list item, you know, with a bullet and you hit return, it should start another list item. And if you hit return again at an empty line, it should clear the clear, the list out like basic stuff [01:05:00] like that.
[01:05:00] Just that’s how a markdown editor needs to work for me. So I will link that if anyone wants to build their own markdown editor, see my article as like, if you wanna build a markdown editor that impresses me. Here’s your MVP?
[01:05:15] Christina: But also as somebody who’s been working off and on, on a markdown editor, you can probably tell people like, just not to do it. Right. Like, isn’t that just a world of pain?
[01:05:25] Brett: well, okay. So did you ever see, um, what was it called? Uh, shit. I had a, I had a marked on editor. I wrote for WordPress that, that worked inside of the, the built in WordPress
[01:05:42] Christina: Oh yeah. I remember
[01:05:43] Brett: was, uh, quick, quick
[01:05:45] Christina: Yeah. Quick tags,
[01:05:58] And I [01:06:00] incorporated all of this into the WordPress editor and I had a blast doing it. Uh, I think the thing that scares me, uh, working on an app like NBI ultra with Fletcher is, uh, the file Handl. Like you, you corrupt a file and you’ve ruined somebody’s note. You’ve, you’ve deleted somebody’s data. That’s the nerve wracking part dealing with, like, this is what should happen when you hit this key that stuff’s easy and, and pretty fun.
[01:06:28] And I did a lot of that with NVL too. Um, that, that have fun with that. If you get into actually being a file manager, like NV, ultra is then you’re treading on like, holy shit, I can’t fuck this up territory, but yeah. Have fun. Make new, make new mark
[01:06:47] Christina: I mean, I definitely want that. It’s so funny. Some, one of my former colleagues at Microsoft was like, uh, like nagging me today. And they’re like, when is, when is GitHub gonna make their own markdown editor? I was like, that would be awesome. But I, I don’t know. I don’t think [01:07:00] that that’s on anybody’s roadmap, but I, that would be cool
[01:07:04] Brett: All right. That was fun. You guys,
[01:07:07] Jeff: It was fun.
[01:07:08] Brett: what did we talk about today?
[01:07:10] Jeff: Oh, don’t do that shit. Uh, we talked, we talked about styles of conversation and ways of listening slash uh, failing, failing to listen. Quality of
[01:07:23] Christina: and quality of presence. Thank you, Jeff.
[01:07:25] Brett: we talked about whether neurotypical people even exist.
[01:07:29] Jeff: mm-hmm yeah.
[01:07:31] Brett: We did not come to a conclusion.
[01:07:33] Christina: did not.
[01:07:33] Jeff: I said, I don’t believe in that monster, but I was searching for words and monster. Wasn’t the one I meant. So if anybody out there identifies that way, I didn’t mean monster. Uh, I still don’t know what I meant, but I’m not that mean.
[01:07:44] Christina: And, uh, and we talked about apps,
[01:07:47] Brett: yeah, we, we, we went, we went long on mental health and I feel like we had, we had a lot to say Brett found a therapist. Uh, we, we had a lot, we had a lot to talk about. Um, but then yeah, we got [01:08:00] into Grapptitude and I think all three picks day were, were thought provoking and, and really exciting.
[01:08:09] Jeff: Yes,
[01:08:09] Brett: won’t, I won’t ruin them for people listening to just this summary.
[01:08:13] I won’t ruin the picks.
[01:08:14] Christina: but they’re good
[01:08:15] Brett: You’ll have to check it out. Yeah.
[01:08:17] Jeff: actually, well, I think I picked word. If I’m not mistaken, Christina, you were Excel and then brought you access,
[01:08:23] Brett: no, I, I went with pages just to be the rebel.
[01:08:25] Jeff: Oh, got
[01:08:26] Christina: right, right.
[01:08:27] Jeff: Got it. Yeah. Great conversation.
[01:08:30] Brett: Hey, you guys get some sleep?
[01:08:32] Jeff: Get some
[01:08:33] Christina: Get some sleep.
[01:08:34] Brett (2): Check out our YouTube channel, follow our twitter and instagram accounts, and sign up for the newsletter! See the show notes for links.