282: Nothing of Value

[00:00:00] Brett: Hey, welcome to overtired you guys. Hey, everybody. Um, I’m here as this. This is Brett Terpstra. Hi, I’m Brett Terpstra and I’m here with I’m here with my usual

[00:00:14] cohost, Christina Warren and Jeff severance. Gunzel how you guys doing?

[00:00:18] I know it’s a week after Easter but we recorded ahead so sorry

[00:00:18] Christina: We’re good. We’re good. I think, um, so we’re recording this no Saturday. So this is a, this is like the it’s weird. Cause, uh, I guess yesterday it was like good Friday and Passover and like, um, uh, like, uh, in Islamic, like holiday and something else, it was like all these like holiday, like,

[00:00:37] Jeff: You got your Ramadan. You got your

[00:00:39] Christina: Yes.

[00:00:40] Brett: we all still had to

[00:00:41] Jeff: got your Easter.

[00:00:43] Christina: Yep. Right. That is kind of interesting, right? Is that, is that everybody’s still had to work? Although I had, there were a number of people who were out, um, I’d get up, which, uh, was, um, nice that the people would just like take that time or whatever, but, uh, [00:01:00] Have you had to see your parents yet bread. Are you going to have to like spend Easter with them?

[00:01:05] Brett: yeah. In fact, I have a topic on our list to talk about how amazing I found this shortcut to having safe conversations with my parents. Easter did not come up because Saturday in between good Friday and Easter Sunday, I don’t at least a fundamentalist doesn’t mean shit. Like nobody cares about Saturday.

[00:01:25] So, so we had our Saturday breakfast and if I had showed up on Sunday, there would have been some conversations, especially considering it’s the full moon. And this is a werewolf Jesus year. Like we would have had, we

[00:01:38] Jeff: Not to your parents,

[00:01:39] Brett: shotguns and silver bullet conversations. Um,

[00:01:44] Jeff: where werewolf? Jesus.

[00:01:46] Brett: no, But, my, my joke yet all day yesterday was that’s funny.

[00:01:50] It doesn’t feel like a good Friday because. I can’t, I

[00:01:55] Christina: um,

[00:01:56] SEVERITY 1

[00:01:56] Brett: I’m sworn to secrecy, but, but [00:02:00] Oracle dev REL had a severity level one event and I worked til 9:00 PM on Thursday night and was up at the crack of Dawn on Friday to deal with this severity one event.

[00:02:18] Christina: so you’re sworn to secrecy, but let me just back up here, cause we’re going to go into, and to mental health thing, and this probably might have something to do with it, but okay. This is, this is the dev role teams things. So this was, or no, I was going to say you’re not, you’re not an SRE. You’re not like on-call why?

[00:02:33] Why are you on this?

[00:02:35] Brett: our, our role in this? was communication with customers.

[00:02:40] Christina: Gotcha. Oh, so, so you were not going to be at LaSeon. Okay.

[00:02:45] Brett: I don’t know what that means.

[00:02:47] Christina: Okay. Uh, so the, the joke here, a joke. So Atlassian has had an outage for some of its customers, like up to 400 of its customers. There’s been an outage that is at this point, I think about two weeks [00:03:00] long where all their services have been out like that lasting cloud has been out. And, um, it lasts again finally after like 10 days finally at the beginning of last week.

[00:03:10] And now we’re this week, I guess we’re recording on Saturday. Um, finally addressed the situation and sort of apologized and, um, uh, promised to post-mortem basically the problem was is that they ran some sort of a script without testing it. It wasn’t. Um, uh, compromising some, um, uh, user data and some other things.

[00:03:31] And so the situation that they were left with was if we restore from the backup, it will overwrite and, and lose all the stuff that the majority of our customers have done. But if we, you know, but, but because, um, if we don’t restore, if we just like, get the services up and running, then 400 customers won’t have any of their data.

[00:03:53] Um, they will have data loss. So they, um, the, the 400 customers that are impacted [00:04:00] by this had been in this kind of series of spaces where they might have access to some services at this point, but they probably don’t have access, but they definitely don’t have access to all of them. And, and last thing is having to kind of manually go through to do recovery stuff, which is painful, but the worst part of all this cause, you know, mistakes can happen is they didn’t bother saying anything to anybody for like days and days and days.

[00:04:22] So it was just, it’s just a terrible situation.

[00:04:24] Brett: Oracle is being proactive. I think, I think everything’s going to be resolved and they will actually give us, apparently Easter Monday is a thing. Um, and we don’t get good Friday off, but we get Easter Monday off.

[00:04:41] Isn’t there something the Monday before Easter too, like Monday something.

[00:04:46] Jeff: Oh,

[00:04:47] Christina: don’t know. It’s I just looked and on one of my calendars, Easter Monday is actually listed as a thing. Um,

[00:04:55] Brett: I never noticed that before either

[00:04:57] Christina: I think in some jurisdictions it might be, I think I have, [00:05:00] I have a feeling like it’s on a couple of holiday at calendars that I have. So who knows maybe it is.

[00:05:06] I don’t, it’s not an official holiday for us, but I totally understand that there are probably places in the world and maybe even like corporations who were like, yeah, we’ll give you Monday off.

[00:05:17] Brett: Oracle is very good about giving us anything remotely resembling a holiday. We get the day off, which for us, remote workers just means they don’t schedule meetings for that day. Um, but it’s, I love

[00:05:33] Jeff: the, I like my head kind of, my wheels started turning with remotely, resembling a holiday. I was like, what would that be

[00:05:39] Christina: Yeah. You’re you’re like, Ooh, what holidays can

[00:05:41] Brett: It’s national pet day.

[00:05:43] Christina: Well, I was going to say, right. Cause every day, if you look those stupid ass, social media calendars, where like every fucking brand has created, it is national hotdog day is national disease national that day. It’s like a,

[00:05:54] Jeff: secretaries who are also your sibling day,

[00:05:56] The Magic of Brand Calendars

[00:05:56] Christina: exactly. And, and, and, and then like, like, let’s do, let’s do these [00:06:00] hashtags and come up with like a calendar of shit to tweet.

[00:06:02] Um, you know, you wonder like, okay, could we take advantage of this? I knew it was when I worked at Mashable who I, I mean, I, I always say this about, about this stuff. Cause I do feel sort of guilty. Like I wasn’t directly responsible for that proliferation, but Mashable as an entity, especially in the early 2010s certainly was because we were the defacto, like site of record of all the kind of social media space and, and so marketers and, and, you know, France and stuff would, would use stuff that we published and things that we did as like ideas for how to do social.

[00:06:38] And so a lot of times, like when that whole thing took off of, of, you know, coming up with stupid stuff too, like it’s this day to celebrate on social media, we would write about it and then reinforce that it was a good idea. And, um, and then brands would oftentimes send us stuff and do shit. Like I would just get random things delivered to my office for.[00:07:00]

[00:07:00] Just dumb days, like national ice cream day national, the state national wide, like Ben and Jerry’s would show up, you know, and whatnot. And, and so I feel guilty to a certain extent, but I also did get free swag out of a lot of it.

[00:07:11] Jeff: Man, that was such a thing. Like I remember it was even like 2009. I think I worked for acne reader, which had been very much like a magazine about magazines. And, and so when they, when they created a website, there were, you know, way out of their depth and, and made a lot of mistakes and content. A lot of content went straight from, um, word doc drafts of articles with Teekay’s still in them to the web somehow.

[00:07:39] But what, by the time I came on and I was in charge of the website, uh, and all the content there, we had this publisher from Kansas Topeka, Kansas that had bought the thing and they were super into just like, you know, anything to get the clicks and, you know, they would send us all the different stuff, the Mashable stuff, whatever people were doing.

[00:07:57] But like, I remember there was a point where our [00:08:00] publisher, uh, called me and was like, question blog. We need question blogs and I want it to be videos. You ask a question, any question we found in our research that any question gets people to click for the answer. And, and I was like super opposed, and I was a super asshole about it.

[00:08:15] And so I prepared this very short video where, um, do you remember any, I mean, you could still do this, but when you first were able on, on max to put like clouds, moving clouds behind you and photo booth or whatever. So I had all these clouds, but I wasn’t in the picture. And then I rolled into the picture and I got really close and I said, you’re going to eat that.

[00:08:34] And I submitted that as my first question blog.

[00:08:39] It wasn’t a favorite. I wasn’t a favorite. Those are funny times though, do this. No, do this. You gotta do this. Lots of cliques. Do this. Oh God.

[00:08:48] Christina: no, I know.

[00:08:49] Jeff: to think about what I want to do.

[00:08:51] Christina: Exactly. And then, and then we were, it was always, I always felt guilty. Like I said, cause Nashville, we were both the example of what it would look like if you were [00:09:00] successful. And we were also writing kind of, um, you know, like, like tips and whatnot. And, and yet like sometimes we were successful for those things, but a lot of times we weren’t, you know, and it was just, we were trying, we were throwing stuff at the wall and trying to see, well, but we were experimenting with lots of stuff like Mashable successful back then because it experimented not necessarily because you know, it, it prescribed all those things.

[00:09:21] And I, I feel bad sometimes because I’m like that model didn’t have longevity, Mashable had to pivot a lot of times and didn’t pivot the right way, fast enough, um, to, to kind of save itself. And uh, I mean, it’s still around, but it’s not the same. And uh, so like, yeah, I look back on that era and I’m like, man, I’m, I’m real sorry.

[00:09:41] It all the smaller publications who

[00:09:44] Jeff: but like

[00:09:44] who were, who were you looking over at at that point? Was it like boiling boiling? And I feel like I can only think of what’s

[00:09:51] Christina: It was bus. It was

[00:09:52] Jeff: it was

[00:09:52] Christina: and it was, it was Buzzfeed and was tech crunch. And we were, um, we were bigger than tech crunch very early on, but they had the [00:10:00] scoops and, and then Buzzfeed came at us hard. We were bigger than them for a long time. I would say it was probably 20 11, 20 12 when they surpassed us.

[00:10:09] And because I remember having a meeting with, with John Steinberg, who was the president of Buzzfeed and Jenna, Freddy, the CEO in, uh, April, no shoot, February of 2011. Um, because I hadn’t even moved to New York yet. And I remember having drinks with them and they told me kind of vote, but the longterm vision of Buzzfeed was and what they were going to be doing a lot of their native ad stuff, which was very successful for a long time and how they were going to kind of scale themselves and kind of shift into being a different type of model.

[00:10:41] But they had been. And, and they’d wanted to partner with Mashable in some way. And I went back and I talked to the Mashable execs, and I was like, we need to partner with them because they are going to. They are going to be bigger than us. Like they are a threat and that, that never happened. And if it had happened, [00:11:00] I’m not saying that it would have changed the trajectory of anything.

[00:11:02] And in fact, it might’ve, you know, hurt both companies to a certain extent. I don’t know, but I saw that existential threat, like from meeting them and I was like, oh fuck, the wave is coming. Whereas I think it took another, probably six to six months to a year for the rest of Mashable to actually see, oh, Buzzfeed is now actually going to, to like kick our asses and, and, and it’s coming for our turf, but yeah, no Buzzfeed was the big one.

[00:11:30] And then, I mean, certain verticals would be the verge and other things. But the ultimate thing that killed Mashable was that, and I’d said this again, probably in 2011 or 2012. I remember somebody interviewing me for something about like, The, the changing nature of media and, um, what, um, needed to happen.

[00:11:48] And I said, we need to become the New York times before the New York times becomes us. And what wound up happening was in, in 2014, the New York times had like this big innovation [00:12:00] report and, and where they had like this. It was one of the most brutal self-assessments I’ve ever seen where the, the now publisher, but at the time he was some of the publisher and, um, just running like a special projects, things kind of a viscera of the entire way the organization was running and the, compared it to modern digital, um, you know, uh, digital like startups and, and the way people were getting news and basically said, we’ve got to diversify.

[00:12:23] We have to change the way our newsroom is structured. We have to do make all these changes and pivot, and they executed on that. And what wound up happening in 2016 when. You know, uh, mashville layoffs and changed directions and, and, you know, things, um, they ultimately were sold a year and a half later was that the New York times became Mashable before Mashable could be coming to New York times.

[00:12:45] So

[00:12:46] that’s ultimately what happened. And, and Buzzfeed, it was a similar thing where Buzzfeed was with, with Ben Smith then, and they’re pushing a news. Like they had a lot of things going for them, but they were never able to harness their business and kind of turn it [00:13:00] into something. The way that, that the times was where’s the times to their immense credit took, I think all the lessons of what the digital native publications were doing and applied it to their own legacy business and added in other things, you know, they added an audio, they added in games, they added in, you know, the cooking apps and Wirecutter and all this stuff and they, they succeeded.

[00:13:21] So, yeah.

[00:13:22] Jeff: Oh, my God. They’re just a juggernaut. Yeah.

[00:13:25] Christina: anyway, that was, that was a long tangent. Sorry, Brett. I know you’re very bored.

[00:13:29] Brett: Oh, oh, we have video now you can see you can see me rolling my eyes. You can see me just drifting off.

[00:13:36] Christina: I saw just the vacancy in your, in your, in your eyes.

[00:13:40] Brett: um, I would like to, uh, jump into our mental health corner. Um, I would like to lead it off by reading a four year old review of this podcast, because I feel like it’ll really put us in the right head space

[00:13:54] Christina: Okay.

[00:13:55] Brett: to stars. You’re ready.

[00:13:57] Christina: Yes.

[00:13:58] Brett: It’s not that there is anything [00:14:00] quote, unquote, wrong with this podcast. The couple sound like nice people.

[00:14:04] They are just unbelievably boring to listen to over tired really is the perfect title because it’s like they haven’t slept are in a half, half dream, half awake state, just rambling on about nothing in particular. I want to give it one star because I got absolutely nothing of value out of this podcast.

[00:14:25] Nothing even vaguely entertaining, but I give them two stars for at least trying.

[00:14:31] Jeff: Let’s see poor. Let me guess fella.

[00:14:35] Christina: No, I love, oh my God. I, I feel so. I feel so seen. And so dragged. Like I like, like, like I wish everyone could see the, the, the, the, the look on my face now, because I just have pure glee. Like, this is such a good takedown. Like I’m not even not, I’m like fair, honestly, fair, completely accurate. Like I’m not even mad.

[00:14:56] Like

[00:14:57] Brett: we do episodes with only the Vegas idea, what [00:15:00] we’re going to talk about and we just let, whatever happens happen. And sometimes it’s entertaining and sometimes it makes me drift off and you know, it’s all good. But

[00:15:10] Jeff: Will you, you interrupted for the sake of that listener or not listener you interrupted my followup questions about matchable and that era of I have so many questions.

[00:15:21] Christina: We’ll talk about that. Another point.

[00:15:23] Brett: we were on a train headed somewhere. I, I was only, only vaguely interested in, um, much, like much like this reviewer only vaguely.

[00:15:34] Christina: I was going to say, Jeff, you and I are just going to have like a media, uh, episode at some point and, and, and breads just going to like tune out. So

[00:15:42] Brett: can take a week off. You guys

[00:15:44] Christina: that’s what I’m saying. That’s what I’m saying.

[00:15:46] Jeff: We could bring a good, bring someone from Boeing, Boeing on to tell us what the hell happened.

[00:15:51] Mental Health Corner

[00:15:51] Brett: So I’ll give you my mental health update. Everything is as good. I’ve been sick. Like I’ve had some stomach stuff going [00:16:00] on for the last few days. And, uh, mental health becomes secondary when my physical health is nothing but pain.

[00:16:08] Um, but now I’m feeling better and I can get back to focusing on how fucked up everything else is. Um, overall though, um, I’m ha I’m having a good week despite severity one issues at my job. I actually think I thrive In that kind of environment. Yeah. Give me chaos Give me pressure. Give me deadlines. Give me like, I need this in one hour.

[00:16:34] I’ll fucking fly. Like I can do that. You say, I need this in give or take a month. It’s not going to get done, but you tell me I need this on my desk in one hour and I’ll get it done. Like I love it.

[00:16:48] Christina: Yeah, it’s funny. Cause I was talking to my shrink about that actually, um, on Thursday, um, during our, um, monthly appointment and that exact topic came up, um, he was giving me one of his, [00:17:00] his, uh, soliloquies on, on boredom and stuff again. And, and I was talking about how, like, for me, for my ADHD is similar to you.

[00:17:07] Like I need that sense of urgency and, and that, you know, kind of like the, the pressure to oftentimes do things and get things done. Like if it doesn’t exist, it’s a real problem. So like you and me, and

[00:17:20] Brett: arbitrary deadlines.

[00:17:22] Christina: 100% even arbitrary deadlines. The problem there is if you know, it’s arbitrary, then you can continue to put it off.

[00:17:28] But, but like

[00:17:29] Brett: Because I’m also a really good bullshit artist. And if I know I can get away with missing a deadline, I probably

[00:17:35] Jeff: my brain can spot a fake deadline from like four weeks

[00:17:39] Brett: Yeah.

[00:17:40] Christina: But when you know that there’s like actual, like, okay, it’s make or break time, I’ve got to get this done. And I only have this period of time then there’s, it’s like, okay, now I can go into focus mode. The whole thing had come up. Cause he’d asked me, he’s like, is it pretty easy for you to kind of get into, to focus on work?

[00:17:55] When I was like, no, I was like, I need the, the, you know, [00:18:00]

[00:18:00] Brett: pressure.

[00:18:00] Christina: absolutely.

[00:18:02] Brett: Yeah. I had a conversation with my psychiatrist. Also known as an appointment. Um, and, uh, and I asked if I could raise my, I have like 10 milligrams left. I could still raise my, my Vyvanse. Uh there’s I’m at 60 and it comes in up to 70 and she did not want to do that. Or, and I’ve also had like depression going on, um, sands, mania, but still depression.

[00:18:30] And she didn’t want to add any antidepressants to my already long list of medications. So she wants me to see a counselor, uh, like to find a psychologist. And I think it was Jeff actually helped me find the right guy.

[00:18:49] Jeff: was a Jeff

[00:18:51] Brett: I think, it was, I think it was that Jeff Guy sent me a, link to what, what was that?

[00:18:55] Jeff: oh, everybody’s psychology today. The website has a [00:19:00] therapist and other mental health, um, professional finder that is for anybody in the country. And I’ve found, uh, my previous therapist, I found my new therapist. I found, I mean, I’ve just found

[00:19:11] Brett: Yeah, I actually, I found a guy pretty close to home here that.

[00:19:16] specializes in ADHD and addiction and no, no reference to bipolar, but if you’re, if, if,

[00:19:27] Christina: right. If you both of those things, then it’s.

[00:19:30] Brett: Yeah. So I, um, I haven’t made the contact yet. I haven’t taken that first step, but I found my guy. I found he’s a guy, like I’ve never figured out if I respond better to male or female counselors.

[00:19:45] Um, I think, I think. It depends. I think it depends entirely on the person. I don’t think, I don’t think gender matters to me. If I, if I sense I can bullshit someone from the get-go I have a hard time opening up and I just, I [00:20:00] put up like this, I know I’m paying. Why, why light is someone you’re paying, but it’s just like instinct for

[00:20:07] Christina: I was going to say it’s an instinctual thing. Like you, you either don’t want to be judged or, or you don’t, you know, there’s like other things going on. Yeah. I’m trying to think about that. I don’t know. I think like you, I think it probably depends on the person. I don’t know if it’s a gender thing.

[00:20:20] I will say I’ve had my two successful psychiatrist slash psychologist. Cause I’ve, I’ve had, um, a few over the years. Who’ve been the dual role. Clearly my primary. Shrink who I’ve been seeing since I was 19. And, um, other than like the, the dark period when I ghosted him. Um, and then there’s a guy that I saw when I was in high school, but I’ve had numbers, numerous attempts.

[00:20:44] So like, it’s been men that I’ve been successful with and I’ve had some very negative experiences with, with women, but I do feel like I, if the right woman, like, I don’t feel like it would be a problem. Right. And I’ve also had some negative experiences with men. So I think it just depends on the person.

[00:20:59] Brett: same [00:21:00] here. Like, I, I don’t, I don’t think I respond better. I think it, I think it very much depends on how, um, how forthright they are and whether they ask me good questions from the

[00:21:13] Christina: Yes.

[00:21:14] Brett: If I feel like you’re asking stupid questions, uh, I will I’ll I turn off very quickly.

[00:21:20] Christina: Yeah, I was going to say, for me, it comes down to like, are they respecting my intelligence? And, um, like, like that’s a big one because a lot of times you go into these things and I’m like, I’m not trying to generalize, but this is just true because there are a lot of mental health and, and counselors and stuff out there.

[00:21:37] And a lot of counselors immediately go into like the placating or kind of like being a, you know, a condescending role like that, that can sometimes be kind of the, the default kind of reaction. And there are people who like, won’t respect your intelligence. You almost feel like you have to prove when you first get in the door that I valid for being here and, you know, [00:22:00]

[00:22:00] Brett: what gets me is when they ask questions about my history and I tell them where I came from and they seem shocked or like overly impressed. Oh, you were a heroin addict. Oh my God. What was that?

[00:22:16] Jeff: that’s a,

[00:22:17] Brett: Just take it in stride. Just accept that this is where I came from. Understand all the baggage that comes with, you know, that statement and fucking move on.

[00:22:27] It’s like, it’s like when they’re overly impressed by my lifestyle that I get, I get a little concerned about their wellbeing.

[00:22:36] Christina: Right. And it’s also like, how much have you seen? Right. And like,

[00:22:39] Brett: Right. For sure.

[00:22:40] Christina: like, you can also, you can respect, you mean like, Hey, it’s really great that you’ve been able to get through that and you can be like, impressed. But like, if you’re at that, like, like, oh my God, that’s so what it’s like, okay.

[00:22:49] Now you’re making me feel weird. Like, like, like now, now, now you’re, you’re making me feel like I, uh, like there’s something wrong with me and I don’t want to be judged, you know? I think that’s the big thing, right? Like [00:23:00] the most

[00:23:00] Brett: someone they’re so brave for posting a picture of themselves on Instagram.

[00:23:05] Jeff: right, right.

[00:23:05] Christina: exactly. It’s like, dude, go fuck yourself.

[00:23:08] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:23:09] Christina: brave. It’s like, no, you.

[00:23:11] Brett: the worst backhanded insult.

[00:23:14] Christina: It’s like congrats. It’s like, and in

[00:23:16] Jeff: It’s like, bless your

[00:23:16] Christina: might be, yeah. Like in some cases it is, in some cases there might be some sort of bravery involved in showing something really raw and emotional, but the response shouldn’t be, you’re so brave.

[00:23:26] It should be like, I’m really proud of you for doing this.

[00:23:29] Brett: So, Christina, how’s your mental health?

[00:23:32] Christina: it’s fine. I mean, I’m still kind of, I don’t know. I’ve been kind of in a things have been, it’s been nice being at the new job and kind of having a new thing to get excited about, but there’s definitely been some depression that’s been existing for a while where I’m feeling just kind of like lethargic and I’m having to like a lack of, you know, being able to, I guess, not focused, but there’s, there’ve been some issues with being able to, um, I guess deal [00:24:00] some of my anxiety to get some things taken care of, but I mean, all in all

[00:24:04] Brett: Depression and depression and anxiety at the same time.

[00:24:07] Christina: Yeah. They, they usually go together

[00:24:09] Brett: Oh sure.

[00:24:10] Christina: for me anyway. Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:12] Brett: For,

[00:24:12] me, for me, they tend to, we’ll be two separate issues, uh, that I deal with one at a time, but I can imagine what it’s like to deal with both.

[00:24:20] Jeff: Yeah. Like the dreamsicle of hell.

[00:24:25] Brett: I have found a lot of my stuff that I would claim was a focus issue has been very tied to depression for me. Um, my focus is it’s not, it’s not an inability focus. It’s an inability to get started on anything.

[00:24:41] Christina: Yeah. I have that. That’s that’s my issue too. And for me a lot about it is tied up in anxiety because it will be, I’ll have anxiety about starting I’ll have anxiety about it, about it not having already happened, which will then fuel more anxiety, make it harder. And which will only then make me depressed.

[00:24:56] So it’s like a self, like.

[00:24:59] Brett: [00:25:00] A self-fulfilling cycle of

[00:25:02] Christina: but there’s also like, like what’s, what’s what, what’s the thing like where, like, you know, the

[00:25:05] Brett: Self perpetuating.

[00:25:07] Christina: Yeah, exactly. Self perpetuating. There we go. Yup.

[00:25:10] Jeff: Hmm. That’s hard just playing hard.

[00:25:15] Christina: Jeff, how about you?

[00:25:17] Jeff: Uh, I’m doing, I’m doing good. Um, I’m um, I have a new therapist that had like, I think three appointments now, and I’ve just, they’re just the best. And, um,

[00:25:30] I’ve, uh, it’s caused me to reflect a lot because, you know, I’ve, I’ve only had three therapists as an adult. I mean, I’m sorry, I guess that can be a lot for some people, but like I had one for a little bit in my twenties and then about five years ago, I started therapy again and held that one for five years.

[00:25:50] That therapist retired and I went through another period of just not dealing with getting a therapist. And now I’m, I’m back on and, and, um, [00:26:00] It’s interesting to tell your story again. Um, you know, when I feel like, especially my therapist prior to this one who retired, like what did a phenomenal job of holding my story in her mind?

[00:26:15] And part of that was just good note taking, but it was like she could, after five years she could really, really like move quickly with me, you know? Um,

[00:26:25] Brett: that I like, I don’t have a lot of experience with therapy, but I imagine that really matters to not have to

[00:26:30] Jeff: yeah, it’s the like being witnessed as powerful and then being witnessed over and over. Cause like in your own, in your personal life with friends, with partners, whatever, like, just because of that dynamics of a relationship that is not therapeutic right. And transactional, um, You can, your story can get older.

[00:26:50] You can feel like your story is old and that could cause you to think that your story is something other than what it is, right? Like, oh, it’s old, it’s stale. It’s whatever. But if it’s still acting on you, [00:27:00] um, or the elements of it are still acting on you, then it’s still a real thing that needs to be addressed.

[00:27:04] And so telling my story over, it’s like, um, helpful to remember that healing one healing is like a thing that doesn’t end, um, Exactly right. But like that, it’s like a spiral I’m not in like this linear path with my inner work or my therapist or whatever. It’s like a spiral where like the first time around, I told these stories and I was, I was ready at that point for a certain kind of, uh, interaction with traumas and other things.

[00:27:35] And then I came back around and I was ready for a different layer. And so like, it’s just been important, an important lesson for me in like challenge myself, not to be like, oh God, this old story again. And just be like, Hey, you know, every time, every time someone is a witness to my story in a really true and meaningful way, something, some new thing is unlocked.

[00:27:55] And, um, this therapist is just spent so fucking good at [00:28:00] facilitating. Um, so that’s been really good. And like I’m also, I have someone who mad at who manages my meds. Who’s new. And I at first thought that this was not going to be a good relationship, but we only had one meeting and it was before I had really tried some new meds and we just had our second meeting and she’s just fucking awesome.

[00:28:17] Um, and so I feel like I’m in good hands there and, uh, which is good. Cause the meds I’m taking are just having like, not great effects on me besides the good stuff, the mental health stuff, like the side effects kind of suck. Um, and so there’s that too, but, but I’m good. And I wanted to say about psychology today to anybody listening that.

[00:28:37] Um, my, so my wife is a therapist and she, and I give that link out including to each other sometimes. Uh, so many times to people who are looking for a therapist, it seems, I think psychology today is like, always seem to me. It’s just kind of like a pop psych magazine

[00:28:54] Christina: That’s what I kind of thought of it as, but, but they have good articles. Like

[00:28:58] Jeff: But it turns out they also [00:29:00] built this just like very widely used, um, system to search for mental health professionals and, and the biggest.

[00:29:08] Yes. And the biggest thing I hear from friends right now who are contemplating therapy is just like, oh, everyone’s got a waiting list and you can’t get in. And it’s true. Like lots of people need mental health help. But what you will find, if you go search on this list, if you are in need of some things, first of all, you can really drill in, like Brett said, like you can say, Hey, I want addiction.

[00:29:31] Someone who knows about addiction. So it knows about ADHD, you know, but also it shows you whether or not they’re accepting clients. So it’ll say if you’d be on a wait list or if they’re not accepting clients and you will find somebody and especially that like one, one of the few good things to come out of COVID is that these people are mostly doing tele-health.

[00:29:49] Some of them are only doing tele-health. And so you’re not, you’re not limited to like the person that’s inside a 10 mile radius. It’s more like in your state, you know? So I just really recommend to people. Like, even if you’re like, [00:30:00] not sure, like anyone from like someone who knows they need a therapist and they’ve been putting it off to someone who’s like me, I’m not sure I need one.

[00:30:07] And I like go there and just read what people say. And let me tell you, there are some, there are every once in a while you see someone’s profile on your. There was this one young woman who posted this photo where I’m like, that’s your photo for being a couples therapist? Like, it was just this like very social media, like sassy, like turned from an angle photo.

[00:30:25] So like, you know, keep your antenna up. But, um, there’s some really good shit there. And I hope somebody who’s listening will decide to try it as Brett dead.

[00:30:34] Christina: I love that.

[00:30:36] Brett: you know what? This would be an amazing transition

[00:30:38] Christina: Well, that’s exactly what I was about to do,

[00:30:40] Brett: I could see, I could see your face. I could see you working on this segue.

[00:30:44] Sponsor: Zocdoc

[00:30:44] Christina: Totally. Totally. So, I mean, if you are somebody who like Jeff would like to, uh, find a therapist and you want to do this, I think a great place to go. In addition to that resource, uh, from a psychology today, um, what you can then do is you can use [00:31:00] Zoc doc as a way to make sure that they take your insurance and, and make bookings and appointments, which is awesome.

[00:31:06] So there are tons of amazing doctors out there, and there’s some great therapists out there as, uh, Jeff has discovered. Um, and, and as, as Breton and I have both experienced, um, but really the only thing that matters are the ones that actually take your insurance. Like, that’s a big thing. You can have all the, you gonna have the best doctor in the world, but if they don’t take your insurance for a lot of.

[00:31:25] Can I kind of put them out of consideration. So Zoc doc, you can focus on doctors who are in network, putting you on the path to see the doctors who were right for you. So no more wasting time hunting down, aunt Shirley is cash only chiropractor or the dentist that your coworker recommended who’s out of your network.

[00:31:43] Then their Zoc doc is a free app that shows you doctors who are patient reviewed. Take your. And are available when you need them. So you can read up on local doctors, you can get verified patient reviews and you can see what other real humans had to say about their visit. And when you walk into [00:32:00] that doctor’s office, you are basically set up to see someone in your network who gets you.

[00:32:04] So you can go to doc.com, choose a time slot. And whether you want to see a doctor in person or as a Jeff was mentioning earlier, if you want to do a video visit and just like that, you’re booked, you can find the doctor that’s right for you and book an appointment that works for your schedule every month.

[00:32:20] Millions of people use doc, doc. I’m one of them. It’s my go-to whenever I need to find and book a doctor. And, uh, I mean, I, I, as I said on this podcast, many times I’ve been using doc doc for over a decade. It’s great. And in the chaotic world of healthcare, let Zoc doc be your trusted guide to find a quality doctor in a way that is surprisingly pain-free with doc doc, you can get your docs.

[00:32:42] Brett: Uh,

[00:32:43] Christina: there. Exactly. That’s that’s clever. All right. So go to Zoc doc.com/ over-tired and download the Zoc doc app for free. Then you can start your search for a top rate of doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That’s Z O C D O [00:33:00] c.com/overtired that’s Zoc doc.com/overtired.

[00:33:05] Brett: Zoc doc.com/overtired. Thank you, Christina.

[00:33:08] Sponsor: New Relic

[00:33:08] Brett: Jeff, back to you, actually. No, I’m lying. Um, we’re gonna, we’re gonna make this a sponsor block.

[00:33:15] Christina: Yes.

[00:33:16] Brett: So we had, we had a segue to this next one early on in the show. Like first topic would have segues perfectly into this, but it was too early. Um, but if we can, if we can go back in our memories to this severity one issue that kept me up late at my day job.

[00:33:33] Jeff: I’m there. I’m there.

[00:33:35] Brett: If you’re a software engineer you’ve been there.

[00:33:37] it’s 9:00 PM. You’re officially unwinding from work. Your phone buzzes with an alert something’s broken and your mind is already racing and what could be wrong? Is it the back end or the front end? Is it global? Is it the server? Did I introduce a blow up bug in my last deploy?

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[00:35:07] Coming Home

[00:35:07] Brett: All right,

[00:35:07] Jeff: Bye.

[00:35:08] Christina: Okay.

[00:35:09] Brett: so we have some topics on our

[00:35:10] Jeff: Let’s see, like, wait a minute. I’m not finished with my transition music, but

[00:35:14] Christina: But

[00:35:15] Brett: oh man, we have a soundboard. We really, we got to make more use of our soundboard. we’re here media.

[00:35:23] Jeff: soundboard. I’m like that guy in police academy. Michael Winslow.

[00:35:31] Brett: Okay. Okay. All right. I meant to stop It and I

[00:35:35] Jeff: It sounds like, I mean, from here, it sounds like the people laughing are in the studio over from ours, you know,

[00:35:46] Brett: All right. And that leads us into Jeff’s topics. Jeff has, Jeff has heroically had topics on our list for weeks weeks.

[00:35:57] and he has patiently waited for us to get around [00:36:00] to them. And I actually find them very interesting. And I think it’s time that we dedicate some Showtime here at 40 minutes in let’s do some Jeff, Jeff, would you like to, would you like to phrase your first question?

[00:36:14] Jeff: Um, I think I’d like to do the travel question because I think it, it has tentacles in mental health and so it feels like a good, um, yeah, so like, I, I used to travel a lot for my work. I know Christina, you do still travel a lot for your work. Um, and um, I mean, I was traveling once or twice or three times a month, often inside the United States, but every several months it was an international trip usually.

[00:36:41] And, um, and I did that for probably I had a kind of rhythm of, of travel like that for probably like five years before the pandemic started. Um, and then it just stopped. Right. Which for me, I just loved that. I loved not traveling, even though I love traveling.

[00:36:57] Christina: Okay. Cause, cause for me it was actually, it was, uh, [00:37:00] it was the opposite. Like I had such a hard time, like having to be grounded

[00:37:04] Jeff: Um,

[00:37:05] Christina: two years. Sorry, but go on.

[00:37:07] Jeff: it’s weird. I, yeah, I, I was surprised how much I loved it, but anyway, now I’ve got two international trips coming up, one at the end of may to Spain and one at the end of June to Kenya. And, um, and then, uh, probably a reporting trip to Omaha and a related trip to New York. So like there’s there’s trips coming up.

[00:37:28] And one of the reasons that I loved, um, not traveling was I. I never solved the question of how do you come home from travel? Um, and for me that has like a few different layers. Like it’s one it’s like, how do you get back into a retreat routine that is good for your mental health? But like, whatever. Like, I, for me, I know that when I’m most sort of, um, stable mental health wise, it’s when I have like a really good routine.

[00:37:58] But I also know [00:38:00] that if I don’t leave that routine and take a trip somewhere that I don’t do well long-term with that routine, like trips really live in me up. Like I love, I love traveling. Like even when it was traveling towards zones, like I loved, I loved being me somewhere. and in some other condition and, and, and especially, I, I love that what travel gives you is a certain level of uncertainty.

[00:38:28] And, and I really like living in uncertainty sometimes not too much uncertainty, but a little bit. Right. Um, and, and so for me coming home, Has always been difficult. It takes me a while to get back on my feet after I’ve made a trip. And so like, it takes me awhile to get back into, to get work momentum, going to get, um, my kind of meal, like the way I eat and the way I sleep.

[00:38:52] It’s just whatever it messes me up. So. And then I’m not always present. Right. It takes me a while to be present to it. It takes, it takes all of me a while [00:39:00] to come home usually. Right. Especially on an international trip. And so I was, I was posing this, this question and I’ll, I’ll answer first, which is, you know, what do you know about how to come home?

[00:39:12] Um, and for me, um, what I know is I have a couple of things I do that tend to work really well. One is I write a sort of memo to myself before I leave. That is exactly what I was working on the day I left or the day before I left. So it’s like you were working on this project and you left it off here, you were waiting on this person to get back to you, whatever.

[00:39:34] So that, like, I have some chance of coming home and just like getting right into it. Um, so it’s like, and it’s like, I write, I’m silly about it. I’m like, hello, Jeff, how was your trip? Oh, glad you’re back. I just wanted to remind you of what you, what you were up to before you left. Um,

[00:39:51] Christina: I love that. Yeah. You’re you’re

[00:39:53] Jeff: Yeah, exactly.

[00:39:54] Christina: talking back to yourself. You’re like, hello.

[00:39:56] Jeff: Yes, exactly.

[00:39:57] So I find that really helpful. And then, [00:40:00] you know, in terms of coming back and being present, like I have two teenage boys, um, who, who are gloriously still present to me and I am present to them and I have a wife and I have two cats and I have a mom who lives nearby, like. I have, I have had mixed results in coming home and really landing.

[00:40:21] And when I have been able to land it’s when I’ve had a long enough flight to really just focus on the fact that I’m in some sort of portal from this life over here, which is not real, which is me wandering around cities in some other country, you know, eating whatever I want and doing literally whatever I want.

[00:40:39] Um, like the transition between that and the, the fellow who’s going to be driving kids to school in the morning and you know, who just needs to be present. Like, so if I have a long flight, I can kind of meditate on that and just like, remind myself, almost like visualize myself. But if it’s like a short flight, man, it’s super jarring to come home.

[00:40:57] So anyway, those are my.[00:41:00]

[00:41:00] Brett: the way you described that makes me curious what international Jeff exactly is doing. When he does quote whatever I want.

[00:41:10] Jeff: Well, like as an example, I know that it’s a little bit of a lead-up for a joke, but I’m like, it’s not, it’s not anything like that. I just mean like, um, you know, like if you have someone in your house, it doesn’t matter if it’s a roommate or a, or a, you know, a partner or a spouse or whatever. Like generally speaking, they want to know where you are and when you’ll be back, it makes perfect sense.

[00:41:33] I’m the same way. I want to know where people are and when they’ll be back. Right. Um, and, and, and when I am traveling internationally, I am an Explorer and nobody

[00:41:45] Brett: no accountability

[00:41:47] Jeff: yeah.

[00:41:48] Brett: Yeah, Understood. I’m gonna let Christina field this question because I haven’t traveled much at all for years now. Um, I do have some thoughts about coming home to a partner [00:42:00] and all of the strife that the expectations versus reality, but I’m going to let Christina answer the actual coming home party.

[00:42:10] Christina: Yeah, no. And I I’m, I’m curious to hear your thoughts on that part. Um, Brett, because I think that that’s actually, maybe the hardest part for me is the coming back to people aspect like you and you have kids and you have like your wife, like I have, I have my husband, but like, I don’t have the same sense of like having to be present in the same way.

[00:42:29] Like, I feel like, you know, for a, for a partner isn’t quite the same as having to be present for kids. Like, I feel like they’re different. Um, and, and maybe they shouldn’t be, but, but the way I would kind of look at them would be that way. So, and I probably am worst that probably the aspect that I’m worse worst about is, is being present for people.

[00:42:48] When I get back in terms of the focusing and getting in and other stuff, my typical. It’s kind of been the same as what it is when I go on trips. So one of the things that I quickly realized [00:43:00] when I started traveling a lot and, and I should say that most of my travel and, and I will be traveling a lot in the next few months, uh, most of it domestically, but, but leading up to the pandemic, most of my travel was international.

[00:43:11] So it was w which is for me different than, than domestic domestic, in some ways it’s harder, uh, because of exactly what you said, like you don’t have that time to be in a portal to kind of get into the right head space. But for international, the way I’d kind of my approach to things was to, um, try to get there a day in advance of. To have, you know, at least a day to get rid of jet lag and get used to being there and, and kind of decompress. Um, I didn’t always have that luxury, but if I did, that was really, really useful if I had to kind of get there. Um, and then like literally the next, you know, so as when I arrive in at one or 2:00 PM and then I’ve got to be, you know, at rehearsal, um, immediately, and then, um, I’ve got to be on stage at eight or 9:00 AM the next day I could do that, but that [00:44:00] sucks.

[00:44:00] It would be great if, if instead the next day would be like, you know, that would be when the rehearsal would happen and it might be compressed day. And then the day after that would be, um, when I would, you know, present or whatever. So I think coming back as the same thing, it’s like, I try to give myself a day to get over jet lag and to get back into momentum.

[00:44:19] And so that might be. For work. Okay. If I come back in on, um, and this would be even true, I think even for a domestic trip, cause there were times when I would like fly to San Francisco and back in the same day. And if that were the case, then maybe like maybe that’s not as big of a deal. It’s just, you’re going to be tired.

[00:44:38] But trying to say, okay, the day after I get back from my trip is just going to be a day where I sleep and I do laundry and I decompress and I get used to, uh, the new time zone. And then the day after that is when I can start on my work and stuff again. So I think that’s, that’s always been for me, kind of my key things of coming back is to make sure I take that time [00:45:00] to get acclimated.

[00:45:02] And then it’s much easier to, to jump into the work and whatnot. But if it’s, and that’s kind of, uh, uh, um, setting expectations with the people I work with thing, which is to be like, Hey, I just got back from this trip. I’m not going to be available in this time. Or, you know, scheduling your return. So that you have that time to be able to do it.

[00:45:23] Um, but, but Brett, I want to hear your perspective on coming back to a partner, because I think that’s the more challenging part is how to be present and be back in kind of that flow, whether it means having to be accountable to someone, or it just means being present in one another’s, you know, like the lives again, when you haven’t been for however long,

[00:45:43] Brett: Yeah. And, and, and I don’t have solutions. I can only help elucidate the problem. uh,

[00:45:50] but first I want to say, Jeff, I love the idea of leaving yourself. No. Uh, like before you leave, what is it you need to know to get back to where you are in this [00:46:00] moment. And that’s exactly why I wrote doing was for that kind of situation where I was stepping away.

[00:46:06] And for me, it was like, I’m stepping away for 10 minutes and I’m going to forget what I was doing. Cause I’m ADHD and I’ll have like refocus and it’ll come back. But like exactly for that purpose, I like just type, here’s what I’m doing now. Here’s the notes I need to remember to get back into doing this.

[00:46:24] And then I can just sit down and type doing recent and see exactly what was happening last time I was here. But the, the problem I’ve run into with travel is I’m gone long enough to really miss my family. And in my case, like partner and pets and things. And I think I’m gone long enough for them to miss me too.

[00:46:48] So we build up expectations around what the reunion will be like, but the fact is I’m injecting myself at that point into a daily life that they [00:47:00] have continued on without me. And, and as far as they’re concerned, I’m behind the ball. I have missed out on some of that daily life and I come home expecting hugs and kisses.

[00:47:12] And it’s so good to see you tell me all about your trip, which does happen, but it never feels as gratifying as I think it will. And then I’m immediately expected. Be back and be part of this life that I have been separated from for, you know, five, 10 days, whatever. Um, and, and it’s hard. It’s a hard reintegration for me because meanwhile, I’ve been doing, like Jeff says on my own schedule, not accountable to anyone doing what I want to do when I want to do it.

[00:47:46] You know, other than work obligations, which are usually a part of travel. Um, but like all that free time, I haven’t been accountable to anyone and I’ve been exploring things I’ve never done before and all these new experiences and I’m coming back [00:48:00] to the daily grind. Uh, and as much as I might miss it, as much as I really am a home body and like that stability and predictability, uh, it, there’s a, there’s a transitional period that I’ve never really solved.

[00:48:16] I homecomings are never. And the same hat, same thing happens when I’m the person left behind. When a partner goes off and travels, I still build up these reunions as like these joyful occasions when like, all we care about is seeing each other again and everything is suddenly happy and that’s just never the way it goes.

[00:48:42] And I’ve never really solved that conundrum.

[00:48:46] Jeff: I’ve always kind of liked how cats are when I come back home. They’re just like, oh, oh, you’re here. Okay, cool. Will you, uh, will you please pet me over here right now? I remember you. Yeah, go ahead and pet me and I needed some dry food in that bowl over there. Uh, glad you’re

[00:48:58] Christina: Cool. You’re back. [00:49:00] Awesome. Uh, can you get me this thing over there? Yeah.

[00:49:02] Yeah.

[00:49:03] Jeff: right, right, right. Right. I unexpectedly, I think something happened with my wife and I, who like early in, early in our relationship when, um, I would travel. I had a hard time, uh, like on phone calls when I was away. Like I just, I, there was something that just wasn’t wasn’t right. It didn’t feel right for her.

[00:49:24] And, and it just, it was just a uncomfortable kind of tension for awhile. And at some point when both of us were traveling more, um, it just became a thing that we don’t really talk that much when the other one is traveling. Um, we text like, you know, details and usually like kind of domestic stuff and whatever, but like, and I find actually that that’s like a, that makes for a much, um, a much more sort of real return.

[00:49:51] Cause I think part of what’s

[00:49:52] Christina: I do the same thing.

[00:49:53] Jeff: you do.

[00:49:54] Christina: guys, I text mostly like we’re not doing the phone call stuff. Cause that’s, what’s hard.[00:50:00]

[00:50:00] Jeff: Yeah, because that’s when you that’s, when you, you go right into it, you talked about Brett, which is that you you’re living two separate lives. And if you’re traveling, the fact is the person, you know, left behind is dealing with things that, that either are the normal things, but they’re dealing with them without you, or they’re dealing with them because you’re gone.

[00:50:13] And, and like that, I think that tension just feels can just kind of come up when you like, you know, check in by phone. But for me also, like I travel is such a, as I’ve gotten older, I’ve really. Realized travel is such a like weird, false reality because first of all, you can go somewhere very far away in a few hours.

[00:50:34] And so that on itself, like if there’s a Wendell Berry essay about this, the, that I can’t for the life of me, remember the name of it, but he talks about how strange it is, uh, in a beautiful sense, like to just get on an airplane and go from New York to Ireland in the case of this essay. Right. And like, and I, and so when I can drive, I drive just because I feel like when I drive somewhere, I’m watching the landscape paths and I’m like earning [00:51:00] my destination and, and I’m, and I’m arriving somewhere in a way that feels far more sort of natural to my like prehistoric brain.

[00:51:08] Like I watched the landscape go by, I still felt it. You can still feel the landscape when you’re in a car. Right. But if I’m in an airplane, that truly feels like a portal and it just leaves me with. A little dizzy. So anyway, the I’ve, I’ve noticed that contacting home and phone calls, um, is, is ultimately kind of breaks that wall, that like, I don’t know what you call it.

[00:51:28] There’s like a veil. Right. And, and you break the veil and all of a sudden you’re not traveling and they’re not just home. You’ve kind of created this connection that can’t do anything, you know, but anyway,

[00:51:41] Brett: Uh, my ex-wife used to call me from, cause she would go on deployments once a month for

[00:51:47] Jeff: oh, she was in the military, right?

[00:51:49] Brett: no

[00:51:50] shoes. She worked for the ASP CA um,

[00:51:55] Jeff: she’d go to Iraq.

[00:51:56] Brett: M the military for pit bulls. Um, and, and [00:52:00] she would call me and she would tell me all about her day and all of the things that would ha that had happened. And it felt like a good connection, but also like, I wasn’t there, it wasn’t part of my life.

[00:52:14] And like, I was just hearing it. From far, far away. And, and I would just kind of like pace until the call was done and she had gotten it all off her chest. Um, but it, yeah, it, I, if someone’s going to, leave me, I want them to leave. Um, even for a short period, like, okay, now I’m on my own. I want to exist on my own.

[00:52:42] And I want to deal with everything on my own. And those long phone calls kind of drive me nuts. You’re not here. I don’t, I don’t need,

[00:52:53] Christina: Right.

[00:52:54] Brett: I don’t need to be drawn into your day today because we didn’t share any of this.

[00:52:59] Christina: [00:53:00] No, that’s the thing, right? It’s like, it’s like, we’re, we’re not sharing this thing. And it’s, and it’s different than if you’re in. Um, I think even like a long distance relationship where part of feeling connected to one another might be sharing some of those things like this is, you know, you’re coming back, you know, that, that, that this is going to be like a recentering.

[00:53:16] And so instead it kind of becomes, I think for both parts, like, you just feel like, well, I’m missing out on this thing. And I think sometimes for the person who’s traveling, this isn’t always the case, but there is this sense that like the other person is like, well, you’re just off having. And, and doing all this exciting stuff, and I’m stuck here at home, you know, um, uh, doing the real world stuff and, and that isn’t universal.

[00:53:39] I think like if, if like stuff like your ex wife was doing, I, I don’t think there was like the luxury aspect there, but certainly for things like what Jeff and I have done, even if we’re working our asses off and it’s really difficult and kind of sometimes consuming work, there are still those aspects of like you’re in a different place in front city and, you know, and, and so there’s this fantasy [00:54:00] aspect.

[00:54:00] I think that some people over who are at home, like over-index on, I think that it’s more like exciting and exotic than it is.

[00:54:08] Brett: Let me be clear. I don’t like to travel. Um, I, I haven’t enjoyed trips in my life, but if my partner is the one traveling, I’m all about. Okay. Just focusing on me as, as a fountain bachelor for a little while. And I, I don’t mind synopsis. How was your day? Here’s what happened? Here’s the one or two highlights of my day.

[00:54:38] And then cool. Love you have a great night. I’m like, that is. about as much as my attention span can handle in that situation. I don’t mind, I don’t mind the synopsis. And if you’re gone for 10 days, you know, maybe two of those calls during that time, just so that we are pretty [00:55:00] well caught up when you get home.

[00:55:02] And we don’t have to try to remember everything that happened in 10 days, we can have updated each other every few days along the way for about five minutes. I’m fine with that. And, and I actually think that can make it easier on an extended trip to, to reintegrate. Uh, but I don’t, I don’t, I, I don’t need the long distance relationship thing where I live my day and then spend two hours on the phone telling you about my day or hearing about your day.

[00:55:34] Christina: Exactly. Because again, like, unless it is one of those things where you are literally apart from one another for say you are consistently apart three weeks out of the month. I think that, that just, that creates kind of this, this pressure of like, well, we are living in these parallel lives, right?

[00:55:48] Like if you’re not living parallel lives, I am personally not a big fan of trying to, trying to go into that stuff because it’s like, okay, it was great hearing about that stuff, but what am I supposed to do with that? Which [00:56:00] is the same is true for them of me. Like what are they supposed to do with, with hearing about the minutiae of what my day was like, right.

[00:56:06] Like, it’s like, it’s like, it’s like, not that I don’t care, but it’s like, okay, just tell me the highlights

[00:56:11] Brett: And then, and then this person that you’ve never met, said this to me, and here’s how it made me feel and

[00:56:19] Christina: I think there’s also a difference too. And this isn’t, this isn’t, canonically true. But I think for a lot of long distance relationships, Many of them are, um, people who haven’t lived together and in the same space together before sometimes, sometimes that’s, that’s not the case, but, but many times I think it is.

[00:56:37] So it’s like you meet and then you have to carry on and kind of get to know each other in these different places. So having the minutia conversation can be, can also serve as a way of getting to know a person and spend time with them. But if you already have that base,

[00:56:52] Brett: Right.

[00:56:53] Christina: like, I don’t need to, you know what I mean?

[00:56:55] Like, like if I already know the person really, really well, then I don’t need to spend [00:57:00] two hours doing that, getting to know you shit, which might be really charming and make you feel connected if you’re building a new relationship, but I’m like, I already know you. I don’t care about what this, this random thing said and how terrible this experience was.

[00:57:11] It’s like, yeah.

[00:57:13] Brett: a

[00:57:13] Jeff: Actually you’re making me realize, like, the thing we’re not addressing is how wonderful text messages can be in that space as a, and for me, I think when it comes to coming home, especially like I love, I mean, text messages. I mean, our, our relationship is old enough. Um, and I’m old enough that, you know, I’ve had a before and after text messages, relationship in terms of travel.

[00:57:37] And it used to be that it was like a phone call or an email. Basically. It was like the options. But like, I love being in touch by tax. I love like my partner will send me photos. Like if something’s going on with the kids, like just stupid shit, the

[00:57:49] Brett: here’s what

[00:57:49] Jeff: And then I feel,

[00:57:50] Brett: I want to see that.

[00:57:52] Jeff: I like.

[00:57:52] Christina: like, that’s awesome.

[00:57:53] Jeff: Yes. And I, and like, you know, I send back little things, whatever, like that has become, I actually only just remembered this cause it’s been so long [00:58:00] since I traveled, um, uh, that, that is such an important lifeline with me because of the fact that the matter is the older I get, the more I’m actually not interested in traveling alone, even though I can still get into it, I can still love it.

[00:58:14] But like, what I loved about the pandemic was, and I realized this is the blessing was like realizing, oh, the four of us here. Like, that’s kinda all I want, and this is wonderful. And so the texting has really helped to smooth that over because it’s the, it’s the in-between thing. Right.

[00:58:31] Christina: Yeah. See, I think that, and maybe that was one of the differences too, is that when I was traveling, like I was always with people and, and I was getting to know people. And I was like with my colleagues who I didn’t work in the same offices with, but like we would get to see each other at those times. So there was also this other element there of, of, you know, kind of an additional excitement thing, but it wasn’t like, I mean, sometimes it was, but frequently I was never like having to kind of navigate a situation.

[00:58:58] On my own, um, which had [00:59:00] been more of the case before I joined Microsoft. But at Microsoft, my travel was always with a bunch of other people, which you know, is a different experience. And I think that might be why I, me like the good, the, the loss that I felt in like the, the, the depression that I had from being grounded was as much depression of not being able to see people that I’d become accustomed to be able to see every so often, you know?

[00:59:26] Jeff: Totally.

[00:59:27] GrAPPtitude

[00:59:27] Brett: Do you guys want to try to fit a gratitude in this.

[00:59:30] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:59:31] Let’s do some gratitude.

[00:59:33] Brett: All right. Then, then we’ll switch gears. This has been fun though. I’ve enjoyed. Uh, I realized this week that I never get sick of my partner. Um, like

[00:59:45] Jeff: That’s how I feel.

[00:59:46] Brett: I have, like, I have like max, maybe two people that I can be with all the time, but we, we are together all the time and I realized, holy shit, I never, I never want her [01:00:00] gone.

[01:00:00] It’s crazy. It’s crazy. She’s she’s my, she’s my one person that fills my introvert space. But anyway. Okay. Let’s do some gratitude. Let’s start with Christina. Shall we?

[01:00:12] Christina: Sure. Okay. So my, um, uh, gratitude this week is, uh, the drafts app, um, from, uh, uh, agile sport S um,

[01:00:22] Brett: He just paid for space on Gruber’s show.

[01:00:25] Christina: oh, really?

[01:00:26] Brett: Yeah, he just ran an ad on the talk show, I guess.

[01:00:30] Christina: Okay. Cool. Well, well, Greg, you should definitely be advertising on over tired is all I’m saying. Uh, but, but here’s a free ad for, you know, drafts is an app that I’ve been using. And actually it’s interesting. Cause I think it just celebrated like a couple of weeks ago. It just celebrated its 10th anniversary, which is amazing.

[01:00:46] And I actually ordered a hoodie, uh, to celebrate because they had, they had some, they had some merge and, and, and it’s an app that, uh, you know, it’s, it’s on iOS, uh, Amazon iOS primarily until, I don’t know, maybe three or [01:01:00] four years ago it came out on Mac, but it’s, um, you know, there’s no shortage of kind of, uh, notes and kind of mess, you know, notes, apps and organization apps.

[01:01:08] And we’ve talked about many of them, but drafts for certain types of workflows is still one of my standout favorites, especially on iOS, because it has so many different hooks that you can set up. Like it took out like a notion integration. Now, when

[01:01:22] Brett: it has marked integration.

[01:01:24] Christina: It has marked integration. It has a really good markdown, parser and other types of things that you can choose to do with it.

[01:01:30] And it’s just, uh, I don’t know, um, on mobile stuff, especially, it’s just the app that I really is, is my, um, go-to for, for any sort of just kind of keeping track of my documents and what I like about it is that even though I don’t write everything in drafts, because I keep it sinked with like a folder where I keep all of my other markdown files, I can access everything in drafts and then sometimes do other stuff with it, which is really, really nice.

[01:01:58] So,

[01:01:59] Brett: give a [01:02:00] short description for anyone somehow who hasn’t heard of drafts before. How would you describe what drafts.

[01:02:07] Christina: so I would say, and, and I would be curious about how you would describe it and, and, and you as well, uh, Jeff, if you use it, but it’s basically a, um, A notes app, you know, it’s kind of be viewed, uh, capture whatever you want and, and, and mark down or whatever the case may be. And then you can apply actions to that, whether it’s wanting to, you know, like send that text, uh, you know, convert it to a different sort of format or save it to a different place, um, or, you know, integrate it with something like marked you can then immediately, um, like do other stuff with the text rather than just having the notes itself.

[01:02:48] So it’s, it’s, uh, that, that’s, that’s the way that I would kind of see it as that it’s like, you can take any text that you want. You can just use this as an input mechanism, but for me, the really powerful part is it makes it really, really easy to integrate that [01:03:00] text with a bunch of different services or a bunch of different locations.

[01:03:03] Brett: I would say it’s a notes app. Very much designed for. Capture like every time you open that you’re faced with a blank sheet and you can just spit out exactly what is on your mind, whatever reason you opened your notepad for, it’s just ready to go and you can input it. And then Yeah.

[01:03:22] it provides you with a hundred different ways to use that text that you just spit out.

[01:03:29] Um, and you can send it to wherever it needs to go. And it serves as a single point. Anytime you have a thought, anytime you have an idea, anytime you need to remember something, it, you have one app that you can open, spit out your idea, and then it can go wherever you need it to go to, to be useful to you.

[01:03:48] But you only have to, you only have to remember to open one app.

[01:03:54] Jeff: Yeah. Oh man. I, I love it because, um, I mean, I use it in a very, [01:04:00] uh, not, uh, drafts optimized way, but like, You know, you could think of it as like you write something in it and then you can, it can go anywhere. Um, and for me it’s mostly capture, but then the thing I do is I use it when there’s an email that I need to write and it’s like a little touchy and I’m not really sure the tone I want to take.

[01:04:22] And I definitely know I want to sleep on it, even if it’s not like high, high stakes. Right. But it’s just like, ah, I’m not really sure how I want to say this thing. I just write it in drafts and, and let it sit there overnight. And then I can very easily transport it to my email afterwards. But like, for me, it’s totally like the coolest zone or it’s just like, I need to write a thing.

[01:04:41] I’m going to write it in here first. So I’m not even ever attempted to say, send before a, you know, it’s like, there’s something about the barrier of copy and paste having to happen or of having to send it through an action. You know, it really is that little piece I need between me and making a, an error.

[01:04:57] So.

[01:04:59] Brett: [01:05:00] Alright. Nice. I love it. Jeff, what do you got?

[01:05:04] Jeff: Uh, you know what thank you air table. I mean, this is a massive company with offices and, you know, whatever London, San Francisco, New York, right? Like, um, we talked about. Some episodes go about how to thank, um, a developer or a, or a group of developers, which is sort of what this came out of. Um, thanks to Christina.

[01:05:24] And I want to just say, I can’t see you air, table developers. I mean, I can go to your get hub page and I can see some of you. Um, but I can’t find like a list of you online. It may be maybe that’s by design and maybe it’s just me being incompetent, but I see you out there and my God, you have made such an incredible.

[01:05:44] Product and the, I think of, of this place as this like massive group of developers, because most of the features that I take advantage of as I’m working with their table, I just know there’s like a team behind this. Right? Like, and, and like, I [01:06:00] don’t know what to say about air table company. I hope air table.

[01:06:02] The company is a good company that treats you all well, but I’m talking to you, developers. I’m not talking to the people in the C-suites like, thank you for building such an unbelievably solid product that never like fails to surprise me. And also, like I said, I think last week, like it’s just, I love, I love an app where there is a way in, for a user community to kind of develop, um, their own stuff.

[01:06:29] So.

[01:06:30] Brett: w would describe for anyone who is not familiar with air table, what is air table Jeff?

[01:06:37] Jeff: So Eritrea will look like if you’re, I don’t know who I’m talking to. Exactly. And out there, um, uh, overtired listeners, um, but air table is at its base. If you open it up, but you look at what you’re looking at as a spreadsheet, right. You’re looking at a spreadsheet that looks a little more like Google docs than like Excel.

[01:06:53] Um, but the extensibility of that spreadsheet, it’s like, they, they accomplished something really magical, which is the [01:07:00] extensibility of that spreadsheet is kind of bonkers. And yet it’s very intuitive. I’ve found. And I, and I’ve found because I’ve, I also do some. And, you know, I’m part of this, uh, research and evaluation, uh, firm.

[01:07:16] And we, one of the things we do, one of the things I do is I’ll work with like social justice nonprofits. And, and we’ll look at like what issues they’re having with data and data flow and data integrity and, and how they wish they could, you know, interact with the data they keep. And every once in awhile.

[01:07:31] And by that, I mean, most of the time air table is part of that equation because it can handle not only a lot of data, but it has all these little like apps that are written that you can like have a sidebar that shows you a little graph or shows you like, you know, uh, a custom search interface or whatever.

[01:07:50] It’s just like, it is such a wonderful way to look at and work with your data. And every single table has an API. And

[01:07:59] Brett: was going to say, [01:08:00] I will say, as a developer, I’ve never actually used air table for anything personal, but I have written integrations for people because their API. And the granularity of their API for working with your data, working with your tables, working with the entire application is outstanding.

[01:08:21] Like that’s and that’s, I think what has set them apart. And I think that’s what you most appreciate about them.

[01:08:27] Jeff: Totally. And, and what’s incredible is when you go to, to work with the API, what you see is a list of your tables, your basis, they call them and like an, and they have a little playground. Like you can just, you can, inside of the air table site, start working with the API and seeing the results with their little like built-in terminal or whatever.

[01:08:47] Like it is just so fricking awesome.

[01:08:51] Christina: It is and its API and just its its interface. Like it’s easy. What’s what I love about it is that it’s one of those things that for power users, you could do so much with it. Right? So [01:09:00] that people like Jeff and Brett, like you can write those integrations and you can do this stuff, but for regular people that you’re just trying to get into working with your data and, and having a way to kind of visualize it.

[01:09:10] It’s so easy to use and they can use those integrations without having to know necessarily what it all does. It’s, you know, it’s kind of like, honestly, The way I think about air table, I’m a, I’m a big fan. Um, and we used to be able to use it at a, at, at Microsoft. And then, um, we had to shift to a, to doing something else.

[01:09:29] Um, but, but I that’s how I discovered it was, uh, was it Microsoft probably, you know, four and a half years ago. Um, I think about it as kind of like the old Microsoft access, you know, or, or, or FileMaker pro, but in, in kind of the browser era, right? Like that, that’s kind of how I feel about it is, is that it’s one of those kinds of databases for everyone, but it can be more powerful, but I’m, uh, I’m a big, big fan of air table, like you

[01:09:53] Jeff: What was, was it bento? Do you remember bento?

[01:09:57] Christina: So I loved bento.

[01:09:58] Jeff: Yeah, it gives me [01:10:00] feels the way bento, the way bento gave me, it

[01:10:02] Brett: Yeah.

[01:10:03] Jeff: it was like the F it was like, it was made by the same people as FileMaker. Right. But it

[01:10:07] Christina: Yes, it was.

[01:10:08] Jeff: yeah, the idea was that it

[01:10:10] was more

[01:10:10] Brett: needed a data. I never needed a database, but bento was such a great app that it made me want to use TETA paces.

[01:10:18] Christina: Well, it was funny because I actually built like a, um, like a, and it’s so funny cause cause Kevin Hawker, who, who worked on the bento team, um, at, at FileMaker, uh, always remembers this and he still sometimes talks to me about this and other people who worked on that team still remember it too, is that I built like a database for my clothing.

[01:10:35] Like I, I built like a closet database where in bento, where I had, you know, information about each item and I had photos and I had a whole thing and I was basically kind of trying to create the clueless closet. I never quite got to the matching algorithm part, but I basically recreated the clueless closet in bento, Anna.

[01:10:55] And then on the iPad, it was this perfect thing because I could just go when I could, I had stuff like, you know, [01:11:00] like tagged by color and other stuff and I could just like go in and look, oh, okay. What are, what shoes do I have? And what other things do I do? I have? And it was like the best. It was the best thing ever.

[01:11:10] Brett: you know,

[01:11:11] Jeff: I look,

[01:11:11] Brett: speaking of bento, I miss delicious library

[01:11:15] Christina: Yes, God,

[01:11:17] Brett: bought, I bought a Q cat because of

[01:11:20] Christina: me too. Misu

[01:11:21] Jeff: Whoa. Well, and just, I want to get one thing in about bento and air table. I love it. I think I suggested last week, that one time we, we do grab the two as if it were 1990 something, um, or like whatever, like 2009 or something. Um, but the thing about bento that you’re going to be a Bret and you, Christina, that’s true about air table is like, I make databases that I didn’t mean to make because I’m like, oh, you know, it would be cool.

[01:11:47] Like I have a database I’ve lived, I’ve lived at like 37 addresses. I have a database of all of those places I lived and you can just start like, you build it the basic database, and then you can like, let’s play. And that’s how bento was[01:12:00]

[01:12:00] Christina: Yeah, no, but I think you’re right. I think this is what makes air table really powerful and why a lot of people use it and why. And I just looked, they raised, there is $735 million in a series F round in December. So good for you air table. But my God is that a lot of money, Jesus freaking Christ. I’m like, that’s just insane to me.

[01:12:21] Like that’s, I can’t even fathom raising that much money in a single round, but I think the reason that it is successful and why they’re clearly trying to go into hyper-growth mode is exactly what you said. You can create databases and stuff for stuff that you wouldn’t normally think about. Because normally the way I think about a database, I’m like, oh, I don’t need this.

[01:12:39] And I’m going to have to, you know, uh, figure out what SQL statements I want to do and start to do that. You know, with air table, I can just start creating kind of a list. And then, and then, you know, making it work for me. And, and so it’s taking that kind of power of Excel, but it’s not Excel.

[01:12:58] Jeff: We’ve been, we’ve been talking about this long [01:13:00] enough and my air table has been open long enough or the like main corporate page that I’ve gotten the, uh, Hey, they’re interested in air table. Let’s talk. Uh, I just want to, I want to add one last thing, which is, I am among the strange creatures who writes CA CSV files, just like, that’s how I make the begin databases, whatever, but it’s also just like, if I want to keep notes and I think it should be a spreadsheet, I’ll just write it as a text file CSV and know that like I can bring, it’s almost like what you can do with drafts.

[01:13:28] It’s like, I can just send this wherever I want whenever I want to. And so, anyway, Ooh, this is fun,

[01:13:35] Brett: So I found this, I found this picture the other day and it’s me and it, me and the middle, uh, David Sparks, like popping his head in from the right. And then Paul, Kim, uh, of noodle soft on the left, licking my face. And. And I don’t remember this happening, but I can, I [01:14:00] can attest that at least one point in my life, I was in the same room as Paul Kim, because he’s licking me.

[01:14:06] Um, so for anyone who doesn’t know, Paul Kim author of Hazel for Macco S uh, is, is an amazing, it’s, it’s an automation tool that like, can watch for certain events, especially file changes in, in any given directory and then perform a series of tasks on that file, or because of that file. And like, I use it, I have so many Hazel.

[01:14:37] automations running on my machine that every once in a while something happens automatically that delights me and I forget why it happened and I have to go look and I’m like, oh man, that, that is exactly what should have happened at that time for that particular file.

[01:14:52] Christina: please share some of your automations because I would love to know like what sorts of things that you have. Cause I have a number of them too, and I, I use Hazel and it delights me a lot as [01:15:00] well, but I’m always curious

[01:15:01] Brett: two of my favorite things I do with Hazel are if I save an image to my desktop and I add percent percent, and then a series of characters to the name, like if I add percent percent, oh, it will optimize that image, like, like PNG crush or, or use JPEG compression on it. If 5%, if I put percent percent are 800 C.

[01:15:29] It’ll take a PNG file, resize it to 800 pixels and then convert it to JPEG. And so I have this whole, whole system worked out where I can just name. I can save a file one time to my desktop. And if I make it at two X and that purse put percent, percent, half on it, or percent percent H it’ll save the two X version and a half size, one X version for me.

[01:15:55] And the other one that I use is this whole system. I worked out called [01:16:00] a tag filer

[01:16:01] Jeff: Tag Byler.

[01:16:03] Brett: I can put a series of tags on any file, like a pound sign, and then a context like I have a work and, and, Uh,

[01:16:12] file cabinet and a pictures context. And then I have a colon separated. Sequence of tags that defines where that file should be located. Uh, and so for me, I find those files based on their tags, but tag filer actually puts them into appropriate directories on my disks. So if ever I lost all my tags and I could no longer find my files based on tags, they would be sorted in shallow directory structures based on their tags. And I could find them in those directories.

[01:16:50] If all I, was left with was like a Unix command line and no spotlight, I could still find my files and, and those are both completely automated [01:17:00] via Hazel.

[01:17:01] Jeff: I, I want to say I have a Bret TURPs to bootleg, um, which is when we first started working together and he was consulting with me and my project. Uh, we were talking about tags and I had been listening to Brett talk about tags or right. Reading him right. About tags for like most of my like power user life.

[01:17:20] So I’m like, listen, I need to be able to take this slow. So here’s what we’re going to do. I’m going to just record with my screen up. And I am going to talk to you for like an hour plus about tags and, and we’re going to, we’re going to move things around on the screen so that I can revisit it whenever I want suckers.

[01:17:37] I got the bootleg. Um, it’s like the bootleg of the Bret Turkstra tagging. Back in the day. Um, I wanted to say like Brett and I are building a tool or like more like a workflow to deal with interview files, um, that come in for the project I work on. And basically this workflow works. Um, from the point that you plug the, the [01:18:00] USB friendly voice recorder into your computer to get the audio file of the interview all the way to the point where you’ve loaded the transcript into a qualitative analysis software, and Hazel allows us to make it so that when you plug in, we always have the same model of voice recorder.

[01:18:16] When you plug that in, it’s like, oh, I see we have a interview for the project. Let me go ahead and make a little bolder package for that and get you started. And we use Hazel for that. It’s amazing.

[01:18:27] Brett: Yup. Yup. All the way through that process. There’s like there’s parts where you have to interact and you add a tag. And once you add that tag, Hazel picks back up and continues the process for you.

[01:18:38] Christina: Oh, that’s true. No. I’m like,

[01:18:40] Jeff: a super cool thing.

[01:18:41] Christina: yeah, no hearing you to talk about it. Cause I’ve used Hazel and I’ve bought it and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve like I’ve been a user for probably as long as it’s been around. I probably learned about it originally from you at T UAW, Bret, probably when it first launched, honestly it was either you or, or, or, um, uh, Scott McNulty.

[01:18:55] Cause remember he was a big fan, um, was, uh, so I [01:19:00] use it, but now I’m like listening to how YouTube are doing it and I have all these ideas of stuff I could automate, um, and files stuff I could do. I love that, that idea of, of adding stuff to the file name and having actions automatically take place. Um, because I have a bunch of scripts and stuff that I could apply automatically if I’m just going to name a file, something which would make, which would just save so much time.

[01:19:24] Jeff: yeah.

[01:19:25] Brett: It does, because then, then you’re just worrying about a file name or, or tags that you add and find her, and then everything else is just taken care of. And you don’t have to, you don’t need like drop zone to like deal with the files you just named them or tag them and shit happens, tag them and shit happens.

[01:19:45] Jeff: Tag him and shit happens. That’s right.

[01:19:47] Christina: that, that, that, that that’s a great episode title, actually.

[01:19:51] Jeff: Let’s yeah, exactly. Oh, I appreciate you. All of you.

[01:19:58] Brett: thanks You guys. [01:20:00] I would, I would, I would classify this as a good episode.

[01:20:03] Christina: I think it is. Yeah, this is, this is, I think this is a very good episode.

[01:20:06] Brett: had, we had some heartwarming moments. We had some, some touching conversations

[01:20:10] we had, we had a little swearing, but not too much swearing, like a

[01:20:14] Jeff: Just a little bit of

[01:20:15] fucking swearing. Oh, I see. Got it.

[01:20:19] Brett: I don’t, I don’t think that one’s going to tip it.

[01:20:21] over. Um, let’s see. Um, what is, uh,

[01:20:25] here? Thank you. Thank you. I just want to take this opportunity to thank all the people that made this happen. Um, yeah, you guys get some sleep.

[01:20:40] Jeff: Get some sleep.

[01:20:41] Christina: Get some sleep poise.