Overtired 237

[00:00:00] Brett: [00:00:00] Hey, you’re listening to overtired. I am Brett Terpstra. I am here with Christina Warren. Nailed that intro. How’s it going, Christie.

[00:00:08]Christina: [00:00:08] I’m um, it’s going really well, Brett, and yes, you totally nailed that intro.

[00:00:13] Brett: [00:00:13] Um, so you’re not in, like Seattle?

[00:00:16]Christina: [00:00:16] I’m not in Seattle right now. No, I’m not. Your girl got on a plane. I’m in Atlanta, Georgia. Cause I got on a plane for the first time in 14 months. Pretty awesome. And uh, I’m I’m at my parents' house. I’m on the floor right now. Uh, literally, because this is the only place I could find a set up my microphone and I’m, I’m an aunt now

[00:00:41] Brett: [00:00:41] Is this the first time you’ve been an aunt?

[00:00:44] Christina: [00:00:44] biologically sure is.

[00:00:45]Brett: [00:00:45] What, what, what is non biological aunt, aunt hood like? Yeah.

[00:00:50] Christina: [00:00:50] I mean it’s similar, but it’s different. It’s like, but you know, I have a lot of friends with kids who call me and Christina.

[00:00:56]Brett: [00:00:56] I had some aunts when I was a kid that I [00:01:00] later found out were not at all related to me.

[00:01:02] Christina: [00:01:02] Yeah. I had, I had my aunt Betty and some other people like that, too. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you, Christian, Eastern war. And not to be confused with me, Christina Easton, Warren, uh, was born on May 1st and, uh, mom and baby are doing well. Uh, there was, uh, there was, uh, unplanned C-section because, uh, his shoulders were a little bit too big for Kelly’s body.

[00:01:27] Uh, yeah, but he’s, he’s doing well. They’re doing well. So he was born on Saturday and then were released from the hospital on Wednesday. I got in on Wednesday. So I’ve been it’s now as we record this Friday and, uh, I’ve been, um, with the family soaking up, uh, baby time. It’s uh, it’s pretty great. He’s he’s a chill baby so far.

[00:01:48] So, uh, the dog likes him a lot, which is good. It’s Kelly has a, um, um, she has, she has a, she has a poodle administer

[00:01:58] Brett: [00:01:58] It would suck to have to rehome [00:02:00] the baby.

[00:02:01] Christina: [00:02:01] It really would, it really would have to rebuild the baby would not be a good thing. Note that the boo bear, the dog is, is, is in love. And, um, the family everybody’s doing well, but yeah, so babies, man,

[00:02:16] Brett: [00:02:16] Yeah. So we, we typically do not get excited about babies, but I feel like, uh, you you’ve, you’ve softened in the face of actually having one in the family.

[00:02:29]Christina: [00:02:29] I mean like, look, babies are generally bullshit. Right. And I’m not saying that like, I’m completely changing my stance on that, but I’m also super happy for my sister. And, uh, yeah, I’ve, I’ve softened a little bit. I can’t lie. He’s so tiny. Um, also like I get to be the cool aunt. I don’t have to like pay for his college.

[00:02:51]Brett: [00:02:51] Well, I mean, you could so my grandma paid for my college, uh, which was [00:03:00] super handy, I guess. Uh, I had no student debt when I came out. um, I don’t think that’s the place of an aunt. You’re right.

[00:03:10]Christina: [00:03:10] Well, also in fairness, like the cost of paying for your college, not to say that it wasn’t, um, wonderful of your grandmother and that it wasn’t a sacrifice, but it’s like, even with inflation, it’s like several magnitudes higher now. Right? Like

[00:03:31] Brett: [00:03:31] went to school for 60,000.

[00:03:33] Christina: [00:03:33] for four years. Yeah. So my school was like 37 or 38 for one year and yeah. And yeah, and now that seems cool. It’s like 65 for one year. So

[00:03:50] Brett: [00:03:50] year did you graduate from college?

[00:03:52] Christina: [00:03:52] 2007.

[00:03:54] Brett: [00:03:54] Okay. Yeah, I graduated in Oh. Oh,

[00:03:57]Christina: [00:03:57] So, um, [00:04:00] and now, so in 18 years we don’t even know what it’ll be like. Right. So obviously it can’t continue at the rate that, that it, that it’s currently increased because, but, um, yeah, like even state schools are like early 20 grand a year now. So

[00:04:20]Brett: [00:04:20] that in 18 years, enough Republicans will be dead. Uh, just from old age. No, like this isn’t a death threat of any kind, but that, uh, some socialist ideas could finally take

[00:04:35] Christina: [00:04:35] I mean, I hope so.

[00:04:37] Brett: [00:04:37] could be,

[00:04:38]Christina: [00:04:38] I mean, I hope so that said, I think we severely underestimate the new breed of Republicans that will exist then.

[00:04:48] Brett: [00:04:48] you mean the Nazis I’m familiar.

[00:04:51] Christina: [00:04:51] well, the, the, the, the direct Nazis, but also the people who are like, Oh, I, I I’m [00:05:00] down with gay people, but I don’t don’t tax me. Um, you know, and if anything, more of those people will exist as people age into that.

[00:05:09] Like I’m just saying, I don’t have a whole lot of, I don’t necessarily trust the zoomers is all I’m saying. I don’t know. So I don’t necessarily trust the zoomers, uh, to be, to be the woke, like heroes that we’re expecting. Uh, so we’ll see. I, I do, I don’t think that it can continue at this rate, right? Like it, the cost increased substantially, even while I was in school.

[00:05:35] But, uh, anyway, that’s a whole tangent anyway, I’m not paying for college, so I’m saying, uh, but, uh, I will buy him. I will buy him cool shoes and, um, and, and give him gum and, uh, teach him the, the, the, the dirty lyrics to all the old songs. But, uh, yeah, somebody else can hear her school.

[00:05:54] Brett: [00:05:54] I don’t single nephew. I have five nieces and there’s another baby on the [00:06:00] way. And statistically, it’s going to be a girl, but I don’t, I, I wouldn’t necessarily want to be the only boy when all of your siblings and all of your cousins were girls. I think, I think that would be a little bit, uh, maybe, maybe that makes boys turn out better.

[00:06:21] I don’t

[00:06:22] Christina: [00:06:22] I don’t know. I don’t know. So, so in my family, we were the opposite. So Kelly and I are the only two girls who were born in, like, I don’t even know, like. A hundred years or something. There are three. Okay. I’m not even joking. I’m actually not even joking here. So like, if you look through my direct family tree on the Warren side, so not talking about my mom’s side, but like the Warren side, um, in, it was like, it’s like 75 for a hundred years.

[00:06:46] There were three women born. It was like my cousin, Lisa was the first Kelly was the second. I was the third. Um, the next one we got Lisa did have a daughter, but then that, you know, didn’t have a last name, Warren. Um, and then, [00:07:00] um, my cousin, Chris, um, he has two daughters who were born in the two thousands.

[00:07:06] So. It is incredibly, incredibly uncommon to have women with the last name, Warren, at least in my direct family tree, like incredibly uncommon. Um, and so like, like, uh, my, my, um, I had three male cousins who all, except for Chris have multiple male sons, my dad’s, um, you know, all of his cousins, you know, all of that, like is just, it’s incredibly, incredibly male heavy for whatever case.

[00:07:37] So, uh, the other cousins, or I guess second cousins or whatever the term is, but they’ll, there’ll be called his cousins. Cause they live in Atlanta who are closer to his age or whatever are all boys. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I have no idea. I mean, obviously he’s, he’s going to have an, an aunt only, uh, but, uh, and he’s right [00:08:00] now, you know, the houses actually.

[00:08:02] Uh, for, you know, uh, for the first time, not completely female dominated, uh, you know, it’s, it’s going to be three women and two men in the house right now. But, um, the, at least the house that we’re living in, um, actually I guess it’s male have if you count the dogs, but, uh, but yeah, so I, I don’t, I don’t know.

[00:08:21] All I’m saying is that this was one of those things where Kelly and I were the anomalies and, and he is like, right on track. Like everyone, my mom fully expected to have a boy, uh, and was actually, they were very concerned that I was going to be a boy, uh, why they didn’t get the ultrasound and realized that wasn’t the case.

[00:08:42] I’m not really sure. Uh, I guess they, they didn’t look at it that way, but I kicked a lot apparently. And, uh, and so everyone was like, well, you’ve got a boy because boys kick, which is such bullshit, it’s like, Cause honestly, I mean, I can’t think of anyone who’s like less masculine [00:09:00] than me, you know, and in, in those, in those senses.

[00:09:05] So yeah,

[00:09:06] Brett: [00:09:06] Man. I feel like we segue into talking about trans people in sports, but we’re not going to,

[00:09:11] Christina: [00:09:11] no weird. Absolutely not. I’m no,

[00:09:15]Brett: [00:09:15] I actually have a lot to say on that, but I don’t this isn’t the

[00:09:19] Christina: [00:09:19] do it this week. It’s not the week for this. Fuck.

[00:09:21] Brett: [00:09:21] Yeah. This is the show. This just isn’t the episode. I’m not, I’m not there today.

[00:09:27] Christina: [00:09:27] No, I’m, I’m not either again. Fuck Caitlyn Jenner. Like seriously. Fuck you. You fucking fuck. But like,

[00:09:34] Brett: [00:09:34] Like all of this legislation, like half of the us States currently are bringing forward legislation

[00:09:40] Christina: [00:09:40] not talk about it. Look, I know let’s, let’s, let’s, let’s say in our zone for this week and we will go into this because honestly, neither of us are athletes. Either of us are like politicians and we have

[00:09:54] Brett: [00:09:54] Um,

[00:09:55] Christina: [00:09:55] exactly, exactly. That’s the most important thing. Neither of us are trans. Yes.

[00:10:00] [00:09:59] Brett: [00:09:59] distracted me early on? When you say you’re on the floor, are you laying down?

[00:10:04]Christina: [00:10:04] I’m sitting. I was laying earlier. Um, I can lay down.

[00:10:09] Brett: [00:10:09] I’ve always been curious what it would be like to podcast laying down. I did an episode of systematic once with, uh, uh, w with John, John, John, uh, from the long winters. So what I am blanking on everything today, Roderick John Roderick. I did an episode with John Roderick, where he was sick and he was laying in bed while podcasting.

[00:10:31] And I’ve been curious about it ever since.

[00:10:35] Christina: [00:10:35] So now I I’m, um, on my, um, elbows, but yeah.

[00:10:40] Brett: [00:10:40] I don’t sound any different. I feel like it could work.

[00:10:44] Christina: [00:10:44] Yeah, no, because I’m, I’m making sure that my mic placement is good.

[00:10:47]Brett: [00:10:47] So I got a job.

[00:10:49]Christina: [00:10:49] Yes. Hell yeah.

[00:10:51] Brett: [00:10:51] that, but I

[00:10:52] Christina: [00:10:52] We knew that we knew this was coming, but you started your job. Yeah. So last week listeners, we did not record because, um, [00:11:00] uh, job stuff you need to get ready. And then I had some, some work conflicts or whatever, and we took the week off, which was great for you. So tell me all about the new job.

[00:11:09] How’s how’s onboarding going. Welcome to Oracle.

[00:11:12] Brett: [00:11:12] well, so like, I haven’t actually started any projects yet. Like this whole week was, uh, getting set up, going through training videos, filling out tax forms, signing up for benefits. Despite that I’ve had to be in on T3, like 10 meetings in the last four days. Uh, and in those meetings right now, like I spend the whole meeting, looking up acronyms and, and projects in confluence to figure out what the hell everyone’s

[00:11:48] Christina: [00:11:48] talking about talking about, Oh my God, this, this, this mirrors my experience. When I joined Microsoft to a T like my first several weeks, I had like a whole onboarding plan where I was [00:12:00] in so many meetings for like all day. And I had no idea what anybody was talking about. I had to look up all the acronyms, um, I, you know, to like go through the onboarding process.

[00:12:13] I went on a listening tour where I talked to people on my team and like ask them what the best way to work with them was, and order to figure out what it was that they did. Like, that was what my manager suggested I do. He called it a listing tour. It was actually a very good thing. Uh, so if you’re worried, a lot of people, if you have that opportunity, I do suggest that cause it was actually one of the better things that I did when I was onboarding.

[00:12:34] But yeah, the acronyms man, they’re not what you would think either. Like we have an acronym for CSS, which is not cascading style sheets. Which is confusing.

[00:12:44] Brett: [00:12:44] I keep saying Hool, which I have just assumed is hands-on learning. Uh, cause we’re in like I I’m in the tech writing part and a lot of our projects say Hool and I think it’s like how tos and stuff, but I haven’t had a chance [00:13:00] to ask about that one yet. They teamed me up. I have like, uh, an onboarding buddy who has only been at Oracle for three weeks.

[00:13:09] And like, so we’re w

[00:13:12] Christina: [00:13:12] leading the blind. I love it.

[00:13:13] Brett: [00:13:13] we’re more, it’s more that we’re commiserating about being new than it is like she’s helping me actually. She she’s giving me her experience from two weeks ago. It’s actually pretty helpful.

[00:13:27] Christina: [00:13:27] I was going to say, it’s not bad. I didn’t ever have a buddy. What we had cause we could meet in person then is that we had new employee orientation, which was like the first day. And that was a few hours. And then you went into like one of our business group you were in and then you, you know, got lunch with somebody who was like one of your coworkers.

[00:13:48] And I guess she technically was my buddy, but she was also like the only, like my team was really small. So she was also kind of like my counterpart on another team. We had lunch, I got my laptop, I set up, started [00:14:00] to set up that process. And then we had like a week or so later we had like a, a reunion sort of thing between like the new orientation thing where people met up and I met some other.

[00:14:13] Um, people who were the only people who looked like me, but this was all their first jobs out of college. And that was clearly not me, but everybody else was like, well, grizzled in the corporate America thing and like looked older. Um, and I look young, so they all thought I was a fellow teen. So I like hung out with the new grads and we used to get lunch like every week for awhile, which was nice.

[00:14:39] Brett: [00:14:39] Yeah. Um, I’m going to remain a remote worker even, uh, even if they bring people back into the office, which I’m very happy about

[00:14:47] Christina: [00:14:47] Totally. No, but, but I just meant, like, it was a similar thing in that I had like somebody, like, we, we had people who we could like commiserate about

[00:14:53] Brett: [00:14:53] Oh, sure. Yeah. I

[00:14:54] Christina: [00:14:54] that was

[00:14:55] Brett: [00:14:55] the lunch thing got me. Um, the, there, I, [00:15:00] when I signed up for benefits, uh, it was super cool that if you have a partner that you live with, you can get the exact same benefits for them as you would for a spouse, even if they’re not tax dependent. So I’m able to get healthcare, health, health, insurance, and life insurance and vision, and all of that for L.

[00:15:27] And we don’t have to do that marriage thing. It is, um, I’m impressed. I didn’t know. That was a thing.

[00:15:34] Christina: [00:15:34] It is, yeah, this is again like I’m so this job is so good for you for so many reasons, but, um, as much as people should on like big corporate companies and they should, because there are a lot of problems with them. Like one of the biggest advantages is the benefit structure and the other like perks and stuff that you get.

[00:15:53] Like, it’s just like my life substantially increased for the better for all of [00:16:00] those things, you know? Like, um, cause grant has been, um, he unemployed and then not like with a job that like gave him like insurance or whatever, and things like that. And like having that, you know, covered and having L have be able to be on your insurance and get the life insurance and get the other things.

[00:16:19] And like, it’s just, it’s really, really nice.

[00:16:21] Brett: [00:16:21] Yeah. Um, I was getting nervous sitting through all those meetings and hearing about all of the projects that the team had in the works. I was getting nervous about my ability to jump in. Uh, in what they were talking about. So I had a one-on-one with my manager and. The first, first project I’ll be working on is just there there’s like an index page with like a bunch of the different programs as they try to reach out more to front end and, uh, personas that because [00:17:00] Oracle has always been enterprise and they’ve always been on a license model and, uh, they just, there’s not an appeal there for even front end, backend developers, data scientists that aren’t working in enterprise, things like that.

[00:17:14] And, uh, so my job will just be to write blurbs for this index page for all of these different services, which will be a perfect chance for me to get a cursory understanding of all of these products. And then. Yeah, then the next project will be setting up a GitHub repo and defining a structure and converting a bunch of stuff to Mark down.

[00:17:41] And I’m like, Holy shit. I knew this job was going to be perfect for me.

[00:17:45] Christina: [00:17:45] No, this is great. This is so great. Yeah, this is, this is perfect on so many levels. This is really exciting. And, uh, I mean, we, we were talking over text, um, before the show and I was the only thing I was trying to tell [00:18:00] you was to. Like don’t freak out about feeling like you have to do it all because a they’re going to give you things to start with that are exactly in your wheelhouse and B.

[00:18:10] This is the best part, but it’s also frustrating. Uh, but, but it’s really good. The beginning stuff is going to move so slowly. Like you’re, you’re going to be, you have no idea what to do. I mean, four years in, I still am at a point right now where I’m like, should I be doing more? Uh, and because we’re used to either like me with like journalism and you with like startup stuff and, and with other clients where like you have to get it done and things in, in corporate kind of enterprise world, they just move slowly.

[00:18:43] Like there are times where you’ll have deadlines and projects that you will have to work on really quickly. Like I had a project last summer where our deadline was, was frankly, by any stretch, it was ridiculously truncated. Like it was, it was dumb how fast we had to move, [00:19:00] but. Those are few and far between like most of the time it’s, you know, you do it.

[00:19:06] And you’re like, okay, what next? And you’re like, should I be doing something else? And people are like, Nope.

[00:19:13] Brett: [00:19:13] Yeah. Like we stand ups, uh, Tuesday and Thursday and, uh, Is that right? Yeah. Tuesday and Thursday. And between the Tuesday and the Thursday, one pretty much everyone’s update on Tuesday was that their project was blocked in some way or another. And then on Thursday it was basically just ditto, like, which always makes me question the utility of stand-up meetings.

[00:19:39] That’s always been, uh, even, even my last go round in corporate America, I was the team leader and we kind of can the idea of stand-ups and just, uh, like, uh, text updates. But anyway, I can, I can work with corporate culture. I can do that. But, uh, so my team is the, the U S [00:20:00] people on my team are almost entirely West coast, which means we don’t have any meetings before 10:00 AM for me, which is 8:00 AM for them, which I, I love, I get some, I get some like me time.

[00:20:14] Uh, right now I’m putting it into like my own coding projects. Uh, but once things get started, it’ll be like some uninterrupted work time that I won’t have to shift focus to meetings and stuff, but half my team is international. And the, my, uh, one, one of the people that I need to interface with is in Italy.

[00:20:39] And he has always right. And he has always had, like, he has to work till like 8:00 PM, uh, in order to meet with the people in California. So he was super excited that I actually get up at five 30 in the Midwest. And so he scheduled a meeting next week for [00:21:00] what is for me, 7:00 AM. And I’m going to take it.

[00:21:03] Um, I’m going to try it. Uh, I, I kind of don’t want to set a precedent that I am available before 8:00 AM my own time, but we’ll see.

[00:21:17]Christina: [00:21:17] Yeah, no, I mean, I think that’s fair. I mean, and I, okay. So I work with people who are in Australia, who are in China, who are in Europe, uh, and, um, The the, the time zone thing is always, uh, an issue. And in Australia it’s sometimes almost easier because they are like, what are they, I guess they’re like 14 hours, um, ahead.

[00:21:44] Um, and, uh, or something like that or 16 hours, I’m not even sure how many hours they are, but it, it, you can almost, it’s one of those things where like, at 3:00 PM, my time it’s like [00:22:00] early for them, but like not too early for them to be like dead asleep. Right. So it can be like maybe like 9:00 AM or something.

[00:22:07] Um, and, uh, so, so we, we can

[00:22:09] Brett: [00:22:09] 9:00 AM the next day.

[00:22:12] Christina: [00:22:12] Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and, and so, um, the Europe ones are hard on the West coast exactly. As you described, because it’s like a 10 hour difference. It’s, it’s nine or 10 hours, depending on what, um, what country they’re in. But, uh, and like for you, I think it’s, it’s, uh, seven hours for Italy.

[00:22:30] Um, cause it’s six for East coast. And, but then there’s some countries where it might be like an hour ahead or behind. I don’t, I can’t do the math in my head right now. Um, but those are the hard ones, uh, and in China is, is, can be an Asia can be a disaster. So sometimes a lot of those people have to do like really long, you know, their work shifts have to be kind of truncated in other ways they want to do meetings.

[00:22:57] And we, what we try to do is we try to split things up where we have [00:23:00] like. Evening, um, meetings. And then we have morning meetings, like every other week for our, our group meetings. So we’ll have one at five 30, um, uh, Pacific time. So that’s eight 30 Pacific, uh, for an all hands. And then the following one will be at like nine 30 in the morning.

[00:23:18] So we try to alternate those ways,

[00:23:20] Brett: [00:23:20] you have meetings at five 30 in the morning.

[00:23:22] Christina: [00:23:22] no, uh, sometimes, uh, no five 30 in the

[00:23:26] Brett: [00:23:26] Oh, okay.

[00:23:27] Christina: [00:23:27] Um, but, but, uh, yeah, we, we try not to have meetings scheduled before 8:00 AM Pacific, but I have before had to get on the call with, with people in other countries at like 5:00 AM. Um, if there was just no other way for it to work, but yeah, I mean, We, we try to make it somewhat equitable just because we work with a lot of people who are all over the place, but typically how it works and this is shitty, but it is what it is.

[00:23:55] The company’s based in North America. That typically becomes what you [00:24:00] defer to, you know, like that, that’s the thing that is going to get more. Like if it came down to rock paper, scissors of who’s going to who you’re going, who’s going to have to alter their schedule. It’s usually the people who are not in the camp in the country where the company is based.

[00:24:15]Brett: [00:24:15] So I, so like I get up at five 30 and then between six and yoga, which is usually seven 45. Uh, I’ve been doing my own coding projects, which I was worried. I wouldn’t have time for anymore, but I actually was able to add in like a whole, if then, uh, logic, syntax to bunch, I swore I was putting a feature freeze on it until the beta was finished, but then I got this bug and I was like, I’m going to, I’m going to add if that, so you can like, if this app is running or if this other bunch is open or if this variable contains this string, like, there’s this whole syntax now with if, if [00:25:00] else, and or if else, if, and, uh, ELLs and you can like control entire blocks.

[00:25:06] So you can make like one bunch that does a hundred different things. It got crazy. Yeah.

[00:25:11] Christina: [00:25:11] Now, now I hope we put a feature freeze until the beta.

[00:25:14] Brett: [00:25:14] Yeah, I want to, I’m considering adding a feature request. That was for the ability to, uh, read Jason either from a script or from a file and create, uh, dialogues, like multiple choice dialogues with Jason. And it just

[00:25:32] Christina: [00:25:32] would be cool. That would be fun. I just, my only concern with you is like, you’ve got to ship at some point, you got to ship a beta and if you keep adding features, then like you can’t do it. Like you, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta scope. Like you gotta scope your project.

[00:25:48]Brett: [00:25:48] it has never been my, my forte.

[00:25:51] Christina: [00:25:51] I know it hasn’t. But if you’re wanting to turn this into a commercial thing, you’re going to need

[00:25:54] Brett: [00:25:54] Oh my God. You know what it’s so I had thought I had flipped the switch to [00:26:00] compile marked for, for Apple Silicon, and, uh, I had just assumed, cause he didn’t give me any warnings or errors. I had assumed I was building universal binaries. I wasn’t like I had a DTK way ahead of schedule, but I’ve been putting out Rosetta versions of Mark and now I have to figure out like, cause it uses a bunch of libraries that aren’t compiled for

[00:26:29] Christina: [00:26:29] Right,

[00:26:30]Brett: [00:26:30] And so I have to go through and figure out exactly which libraries are holding. So that’s like a whole weekend right there. Just

[00:26:39] Christina: [00:26:39] Oh, no, totally. Yeah. I mean, my hope is that by now maybe a bunch of those libraries, like other people have compiled them and updated them, you know? Um, since it’s been, uh,

[00:26:51] Brett: [00:26:51] part like most of them are open source and I can just recompile them. I just have to

[00:26:55] Christina: [00:26:55] That’s what I meant. Like you can recompile and, and, and do it like you, you’re going to have to recompile and like, that’s part of your [00:27:00] weekend thing, but I’m hoping at this point, like most of the libraries have already been updated, uh, you know, at that point. So it’ll be a weekend, but hopefully it won’t be too much of a, of a pain.

[00:27:09] Brett: [00:27:09] I have, I have more to say about Apple Silicon, but, uh, first I, I wanted to do our review segment.

[00:27:18] Christina: [00:27:18] Yes.

[00:27:19] Brett: [00:27:19] We have some new reviews, uh,

[00:27:21] Christina: [00:27:21] Excellent. Thank you. Thank you, listeners.

[00:27:23] Brett: [00:27:23] And, and keep them comment Jr. Duncan’s five stars. If you know of Christina Warren, you know, you need more Christina Warren content and your life parentheses, sorry, Brett.

[00:27:35] I’m a recent listener and still getting to know you, but you seem cool over tired brings even less filtered. Christina, Warren Taylor, Swift coverage, nerdy programming and tech stuff. Parentheses, no like really nerdy and mental health discussions. To what more could you ask for.

[00:27:53]Christina: [00:27:53] That’s awesome. And, uh, Jerry, you’re going to be a huge fan of Brett because it’s the best.

[00:27:58] Brett: [00:27:58] And then, uh, from [00:28:00] final broadcast, cool weirdos for cool people, a podcast about whatever the host want, like a morning check show, but made by people that aren’t Botox and reading teleprompters. It’s brilliant. Check it out now. And then my favorite one, it’s five stars, but it’s titled over tailored is the worst.

[00:28:20] Christina: [00:28:20] Yes, yes,

[00:28:21] Brett: [00:28:21] review says JK. I love it a lot.

[00:28:23]Christina: [00:28:23] Over tailored. Oh my God. Why have we never thought of that? I’m dying. I’m like actually dying. This is so good.

[00:28:31] Brett: [00:28:31] Oh, I can’t remember. We read this one last time or not, but from Dayton, TP, it’s just titled I can relate five stars for someone with anxiety, OCD, and stays up too late each night. I can relate to many of the topics and discussions on this podcast. I have also been in software development for over 20 years.

[00:28:48] So I enjoy that side of the discussion as well. I love the, these reviews are held. We don’t get a lot of like, uh, uh, analytics on who actually listens to this show. We just get [00:29:00] numbers. We know this many people are listening, but we don’t know who they are. So these reviews kind of give us, like I had assumed a tech nerd kinda group, but this, this helps prove it.

[00:29:14] Christina: [00:29:14] It does. I love it. Thank you. Listener is doing the best and, uh, over tailored. Oh my God.

[00:29:20]Brett: [00:29:20] Yes. Um, who would, that was from colony. FM is cool.

[00:29:26]Christina: [00:29:26] That’s cool. That’s so good. And thank you listeners. And also just wanted to go back before we go into our next thing, which I think is there an ad rate, but I just want to say congrats to you again on the new job. I hope you’re enjoying things and I know it’s overwhelming at first, but I’m so excited for you.

[00:29:42] And I think that this is going to be okay. Really, really good

[00:29:45] Brett: [00:29:45] Thank you very much. Um, okay, so wait, wait, this isn’t I had the ad read edited. Oh no,

[00:29:59][00:30:00] Christina: [00:29:59] on the other machine.

[00:30:00] Brett: [00:30:00] it is. All right. Fuck it. I’m going to work. We’ll do it live. Wouldn’t it be great. If there were a pocket size guide that helped you sleep focus act, or maybe just be better there is. And if you have 10 minutes, Headspace can change your life.

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[00:30:53] I’m loving the sleep CAS. I’m loving the daily meditations. I, I, I’m a huge Headspace [00:31:00] fan. Uh, I actually, I don’t get it for free. Despite doing this ad read, uh, I pay happily for Headspace on a yearly subscription. Uh, if you’re feeling overwhelmed, Headspace even has a three-minute SOS meditation that you can do anytime you need it.

[00:31:19] And I don’t know if you need convincing to, uh, to, to, to believe that meditation is good for you. But I, as an ADHD person used to be very skeptical. Uh, I just, I didn’t think. I didn’t think a brain like mine could do what I thought meditation was all about, but Headspace really made it easy to, uh, to start and to quickly realize that there are probably even more benefits for people with really noisy brains.

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[00:32:47]Thanks Headspace. We’ll do we, do we want to talk, talk about, uh, setting up an M one mini or do we want to talk about.

[00:32:55]Christina: [00:32:55] Um, let’s talk about base camp real quickly, because I think that I want to get [00:33:00] into the, the frankly, the, the setting up the mini stuff more. Uh, uh, but I do want to talk, we talked about base camp a little bit on rocket this week, although it didn’t. Oh, you didn’t get the unfiltered version. Um, what has been your take as cause you’ve been using Ruby forever for rails forever.

[00:33:20]Brett: [00:33:20] Well, I, I never got into rails. I mean, I can use rails, but Ruby. Yes. But, but rails and base camp, no.

[00:33:29] Christina: [00:33:29] okay. But, but like, you’ve been somebody who, I mean, like you’ve like watched, like, I mean, you’ve been reading 37 signals and following them for forever, right? Like w. Right. Like that’s accurate. Yeah, same. Um, I’ve always been a fan, uh, this whole, like last week and a half has been kind of a, what meant hell, like how to destroy a company in, uh, in 10 days.

[00:33:59] Right? [00:34:00] Like,

[00:34:00] Brett: [00:34:00] So give, give a brief synopsis of the news around base camp.

[00:34:06] Christina: [00:34:06] all right. So base camp is a company that makes base camp, which is project management software that, uh, people apparently use no one who I actually know. Yeah, exactly.

[00:34:16] Brett: [00:34:16] or more.

[00:34:17] Christina: [00:34:17] It’s been around for yeah. Like, like, like 18 years or whatever. And it used to be a really big deal, like in the web 2.0 era, but it’s not really anymore to be I’m, that’s not shade.

[00:34:28] That’s being honest. Uh, people use other things. Um, some will really like it and I’m not like discounting that. I’m just saying, if you look at the services that people use now, it is not one of them. Uh, but they also make the Hey email service and, um, uh, David Heinemeier Hansson and Jason freed are the founders and they posted on their blog before some employees found out I should add, which is kind of a shitty thing.

[00:34:53] Um, last week that there was going to be no more political discussion. At work and, [00:35:00] um, that seemed kind of weird. Oh. And they were also cutting to use their term paternalistic benefits, which basically meant like wellness benefits and, and some other things which kind of a mouse would pay decrease. If you really think about it, they’re like, Oh, well, we’ll give you the cash sum for this year, but they didn’t say anything about next year.

[00:35:19] And given the changes that have since happened, I kind of feel like those, that money is probably not going to be guaranteed for next year either. Um, and political discussion. Was weird in this case, the saying you can’t have any conversations about it because, Oh, and they’re also dissolving all committees, including the newly formed, um, uh, diversity equity and inclusion committee that like more than a third of the company at joined, um, and them saying that they weren’t going to be doing politics was kind of weird because they are famous for being very outspoken on their blogs in Congress, [00:36:00] uh, and, uh, on podcasts and other things about.

[00:36:04] A, the way that like, they believe that work should be done and the business should be run, you know, they like hold themselves up. So it’s kind of like the science of like, we know the correct way of like running a business and, and, and, you know, doing things the best way. But also they’ve been like very outspoken against, um, uh, policies in the app store and what, what Apple is doing in the Apple versus Epic trial testifying in front of Congress about, you know, against, you know, big tech and things like that, which I’m sorry, I think, uh, are inherently political acts when you testify in front of Congress.

[00:36:37] So it seemed a little weird that that would happen and they later then put a blog post out clarifying. Oh no, we can still talk about politics in our own spaces, even though the, their blogs are defacto company blogs and in front of Congress because that’s related to our work, but no one else can have any conversation about it.

[00:36:57]Then reporting came out and it came [00:37:00] out like, we were like, well, what happened? Like what what’s, what’s the big deal here? And it turned out that there was a list that was created more than a decade ago, um, called best names ever, which was, you know, kind of a place to collect the funniest sounding names of customers, which is not a great look.

[00:37:18] But I mean, I’ve worked at places where, you know, you make fun of stuff that comes in. Probably wouldn’t keep it. Probably wouldn’t keep it in list form.

[00:37:27] Brett: [00:37:27] Like even if it doesn’t start out racist, it’s going to be

[00:37:30] Christina: [00:37:30] Oh 100 for cent. It’s also one of those things where like, even if it’s like your intentions are good or whatever, and, or, you know, are not good, but are like, I guess benign don’t don’t create the list.

[00:37:44] I don’t know. It just seems to me like, that’s just like an obvious thing. Yes. Like, I’m sorry. I mean, and I say, this is someone who, you know, worked at a company whose entire campfire, Oh, campfire is also a product they used to make and then they killed and let Slack basically exist. Slack wouldn’t exist if [00:38:00] campfire is still been a thing, but that’s a whole other degression.

[00:38:03] Um, it’s like I worked at, you know, Gawker media whose campfire and Slack histories were admitted into evidence in a court case. They did not that play did not insignificant role in the jury, the idiot jury in Tampa, siting with whole Cogan. Um, And bankrupting the company, uh, because stuff that people write in the company chats when taken devoid of any context, uh, and even with proper context can be horrifying when you see how people are talking amongst friends and coworkers and stuff, you know, especially if you’re, uh, journalism is a little bit different.

[00:38:40] Cause you tend to be really McCobb and really edgy. But even in normal work times, you know, there’s stuff that people say isn’t going to be the best if you look at it from the outside. Right. So I don’t know. My feeling is reduced the paper trail of like the racist, like lists making fun of people’s names as much as possible.

[00:38:58] So people brought up this [00:39:00] list and we’re like, Hey, this isn’t a good thing. We should get rid of it. And then there was debate about whether or not the list was racist, I guess. And DHH went through the campfire logs and found that somebody who was arguing against the list now, who was like, this is not okay.

[00:39:18] Had apparently contributed to it like a decade ago, which you know what people are allowed to change and grow and evolve. So he finds this and like pulls it up as a receipt. Will you you’ve commented on this before as kind of an aha. Gotcha. And then set some other things. And then he got reported to HR.

[00:39:36] HR did nothing because he’s the founder of the company. So what are you going to do here? Awesome. None of the employees have shares in the company, so like they have no power. Um, and then it was like, after that investigation that they were like, you know what, though? One can talk about politics at work.

[00:39:51] All right. That was last week. Then at the end of last week, there was an all hands meeting that was very contentious. And after the [00:40:00] meeting, a third of the staff quit like 20 plus people left the company like mass Exodus, including people who’ve been there a really long time. Like in one of like the, the, the senior, like, like biggest like rails contributors and, and, uh, people like maintain a lot of their libraries.

[00:40:18] And then the subsequent recording reporting came out and said, well, the reason that the XIS happened was that a guy who works there who was like been there for 18 years, who ran strategy and. One of the most senior employees got into a fight with a black employee about whether or not white supremacy existed, uh, or, and, um, and claimed that it didn’t exist at base camp and that no one that he associated with it worked and that it was actually racist to suggest that it did exist.

[00:40:44] And, uh, yeah,

[00:40:47] Brett: [00:40:47] Carlson works there. Wow.

[00:40:49] Christina: [00:40:49] basically 100%. I mean, and look. You can, I don’t think this disqualifies anybody from working anywhere. I want to be really clear on that. And I, I, I’m not opposed to people having political opinions [00:41:00] that are completely opposite mind at all. Like, I think that that’s how the world needs to work.

[00:41:05] Um, we need push and pull, but this guy has, you know, given money to, to Trump, which fine. Um, but apparently, and they deleted, Oh, this is the best part. This company that’s really committed to transparency a week before they announced all the changes happening to the company. That of course were announced on a blog before the employees found out they deleted like 20 years worth of campfire messages.

[00:41:27] Like they deleted the entire. Shot history of everything that had ever happened. Um, so I guess like after David was able to like pull receipts to call out someone who works for him with his position of power and authority, uh, and, and was, you know, complained about for that, they’re like, okay, well, I guess to risk any of this, some patient will just delete years and years worth of, of back conversations.

[00:41:52] So no one can find anything. Um, which, you know, not that, that like institutional knowledge is stored there too, right? Like, so [00:42:00] people knowing how to onboard and how to, how to. You know, get access to certain things are probably also gone. But anyway, um, but apparently this guy before this call had a history of actually being more political than a lot of other employees and, and like sharing links from Breitbart and, and, and pushing his agenda.

[00:42:20] Um, anyway, he was, he was, he went on his rant. He was thanked by, I don’t think thanked in this, in this sense that maybe some of the employees took it. I don’t think that the Jason freed was like, thank you for speaking up. I think he was just like, all right, thanks for, like you said your piece. Thank you.

[00:42:36] We’ll move on to the next person regardless. There was, you know, acrimony there. He was suspended, then he resigned, but on the call, They were asked unequivocally to denounce white supremacy and they didn’t do it. Jason freed couldn’t do it. He finally managed to be able to say it to Casey Newton. Several days later when Casey Newton reached out to him when he [00:43:00] was writing about the story, but they admitted these people who again have written management books about how awesome they are at management and how great they are at running companies and how you should always do things their way.

[00:43:09] And if you take venture capital, if you do anything, that is not what they did. Uh, also they took money from Jeff Bezos. So they’re complete hypocrites. Um, then, then you are wrong. Um, didn’t know how to handle this employee implosion and didn’t know how to handle this very acrimonious situation. And I’m not saying that it would be an easy thing to handle when you have like your small companies sort of imploding that in all hands.

[00:43:33] I’m not saying that would be an easy management thing at all. I don’t know if I could handle it, but I also, haven’t written five management books talking about what a great manager I am. So now a third of the company has gone, um, They, uh, it’s a mess. It’s a complete cluster. Fuck. So I’m, I’m curious about your take kind of watching this cause I’ve, I’ve gone from, Oh, also DHH who I’ve met number of times has blocked me on Twitter for saying stop dude, which is [00:44:00] personally hilarious to me.

[00:44:01] Um, but, uh, I, I, I’ve watched with kind of Mr. Horror and then like, almost like bizarre, like not enjoyment. Cause I feel bad for the people who work there, but it’s like been, McAliley entertaining to see something implode. So spectacularly completely from their own doing.

[00:44:23]Brett: [00:44:23] My only reaction. I don’t have any, uh, emotional investment in, in base camp. I, I get some entertainment. Uh, some disappointment. Sure. But yeah, I mean, really it’s just, uh, kind of a Holy shit moment, like watching everything implode Xplode however you want to look at it. It’s it’s, uh, it’s a lot. I, uh, I don’t have any real strong feelings though.

[00:44:54]Christina: [00:44:54] Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that that’s probably similar to where I am. I just, I, I [00:45:00] initially I wanted to talk about it cause DHH blocked me on Twitter, which was just the most like thin skinned, dumb ass thing you can imagine. And I hadn’t even, I mean, granted, but he blocked anybody at sea and responded to him because he was Twitter.

[00:45:11] She was trying to tweet through it. This was, this is as big as mistake never, ever, ever tried to blog or tweet through like the shitstorm. Like if you become the, uh, there’s this, this great tweet happened like a year ago, which is like every day, someone on Twitter becomes the villain of the day and your goal in life is to not become that person.

[00:45:30] And that is absolutely true. There is one person everyday who everybody piles on and. You know, um, I haven’t ever been the, the villain of the day, but I’ve been the victim of people piling on me. Uh, ironically, a lot of times people now in the context, bring it up with like people on the left, like piling on.

[00:45:47] I’ve been pile on by the right, like I’ve, I’ve had, you know, like, uh, Glenn back and people like that, like try and get me fired. Um, And, uh, it’s not fun. Um, I I’ve had people send me [00:46:00] like Holocaust imagery and shit to my Instagram and, uh, you know, it it’s, it’s, it’s not, it’s not a fun time. Um, and I don’t wish like some of the pylon that they’re getting, I don’t think it’s deserved.

[00:46:12] You don’t want to be that villain of the day person. But if that happens to you, the absolute worst thing you can do is to try to tweet through it and try to like respond to people and defended and whatnot. Like that is the

[00:46:24] Brett: [00:46:24] Just go

[00:46:25] Christina: [00:46:25] do. Exactly. And like, just wait it out. Like, and, and, and I don’t even think you need to deactivate your account because I think sometimes that makes it worse.

[00:46:34] Just shut up because it will pass. And that’s all I was trying to say to him. I was just like, dude, stop, like, stop. Like you’re, you’re making this worst. And, uh, apparently that offended him very much. He blocked me. I wish I was like, Okay. Well, I wasn’t really speaking out that much except to say that I thought that there were certain ironies in this, but now fuck it.

[00:46:58] You can’t see my tweets anyway. So, [00:47:00] um, I, again, it’s like watching a car wreck. I don’t know.

[00:47:05] Brett: [00:47:05] And now we

[00:47:06] Christina: [00:47:06] I’ve also

[00:47:06] Brett: [00:47:06] into our avoidance of talking about the myth of cancel culture.

[00:47:11]Christina: [00:47:11] 100%, 100%. Uh, but, but now, now speaking of car racks, let’s talk about setting up your in one Mac for work.

[00:47:18] Brett: [00:47:18] Okay. The situation I had a, an Intel MacBook pro that was working great. I loved it. But then I got this $500 certificate from Apple and I had a little extra cash. Thanks to paying off my credit cards. Thanks. Last week, sponsor and. Uh, and a new job. And, uh, so I decided to get, uh, a pimped out new Mac mini and, uh, I also got, uh, a laptop from, so right now at my desk, I have two laptops and a mini and a hub that has my display and my keyboard and everything that I’m kind of using as a [00:48:00] manual KVM, or I just like.

[00:48:02] Pull the USB-C cable out of one and stick it in the other, depending on which one I want to use and then use a screen, uh, screens to like VNC between three different computers. And then I had to write a bunch that put a small image in the lower left-hand corner of the display to remind me which computer I was on at the time, because my goal has been set them to set them all up very similarly with like the same dock layout and the same app configuration and everything.

[00:48:32] Anyway, uh, the thing that like, ideally I get the Mac mini set up as my. Only personal machine. And I get to handle my Mac book pro down to L and the usual chain of hand-me-down computers. And, uh, the problem I’m running into is the, the chip. Uh, you can’t the only version of Ruby that will [00:49:00] install on an Apple Silicon machine is Ruby 3.0 0.1, which.

[00:49:08] You cannot install on an Intel machine. You can only install 3.0 0.0. So I have that tiny little conflict right there, but things like my Jekyll blog that I’ve been using for like eight years now, um, like I, that requires a Ruby 2.6 0.5 and I cannot find like you can. Okay. So the other problem is node.

[00:49:37] The only version of node you can install is 16. And I need, uh, both 10 and 11 to run some versions of SAS that I require. And. You can fix that by launching I term, like you open up in, in, uh, finder, you open up info and you check, run with Rosetta and [00:50:00] it’ll load it as a Rosetta app and identify its architecture.

[00:50:05] As I three 86, you can also use, uh, the arch command to like it. I don’t know if you would say arc or arch, but it’s arc H R arch. Uh, and you can tell it to register a command as an Intel. Uh, or identify itself as Intel, so that something like an NPM install, we’ll assume your architecture is Intel. So you can get node 10 and 11 installed using those tricks, but it doesn’t work for Ruby.

[00:50:37] And it’s been like, everything else is pretty much working fine. All of my apps are running. I got sound source, uh, which has sound source in Lubeck, have a whole special install procedure that involves recovery mode and everything, but you can do it and it all works. It’s been. It’s been two weeks now of [00:51:00] struggling to get my machine to a point where I can let go of my MacBook pro and I shouldn’t be this hard.

[00:51:09] I can appreciate, there will be some challenges. I remember going from Motorola to Intel and there were like a two year transition period, at least, but this is, it’s been rough.

[00:51:23]Christina: [00:51:23] Yeah, no, I mean, that seems super rough and, and, uh, that’s frustrating, I think on, on like the, the versions of Ruby and the node thing, I would have hoped at this point, like that maybe Homebrew or something would have fixed that, but.

[00:51:37] Brett: [00:51:37] Two, two home brews credit. When I first got the DTK mini and tried to brew install, almost nothing worked. And they immediately started adding arm, uh, binaries for everything. Uh, there was maybe like, I, we talked about brew file, right? Like brew bundle, like dump. Um, I, [00:52:00] Oh man. So I tried, I use the combination of Mac up and, and, uh, brew file to just try to automate and.bot and try to automatically.

[00:52:10] Make this computer work, uh, the way my old one did only two packages out of about a hundred, uh, failed to install with brew. So they’ve done a great job. All, all of the maintainers and contributors have done a great job of updating, but here’s one thing I learned. If you, if you have things that are sync both with like a brew file and with McAfee and with your own kind of Homebrew SIM linking through Dropbox, they will break each other.

[00:52:44]And then things, everything on the many installs to slash ops slash Homebrew instead of slash user been local. And so then all of my scripts that referred to user [00:53:00] Ben local, which I had always assumed was just always going to be the way things were now are broken. And I had, I ended up SIM linking opt Homebrew to user Ben local, which is probably going to turn out to be a really bad idea, but it’s little things, I guess it’s mostly terminal stuff that I’m having, having trouble with.

[00:53:18] Christina: [00:53:18] Yeah, I know. Which makes sense. This has been one of the reasons why I’ve been like hesitant to get a R Mac, like, are all the reasons that you’re describing and I’m going to be getting a pink iMac, um, and a couple of weeks. And, and this has been like one of like the, my, like the reasons that I, I’m probably gonna, I’m going to have to use both.

[00:53:40] I’m going to have to continue to use my, um, Intel for sure. And that the Intel is more powerful. I want to be clear on that too. Like it’s a lot more powerful than what the pink one, we’ll be getting that for the app that I can for podcasting. But, um, uh, and because my dose just like remarkably become worth. A lot of money. Um, [00:54:00] but, um, yeah, I, uh, I had like that kind of same kind of, I guess, uh, like fear with some of this stuff, because I was like, and I don’t, my stuff isn’t as complicated as yours is, but there are certain libraries and certain things that I need to use certain versions of. And that has been like my, my concern to be totally honest with this.

[00:54:20]Brett: [00:54:20] Thing that with apps, you can wait it out, you know, maybe give it a year and they’ll catch up. But things like installing, uh, archival versions of. Like Ruby or node, that’s never going to be fixed. Like there’s no reason, like all of the development is going to go into the head and the edge versions of the, of the libraries and no one is going to fix hold versions.

[00:54:50] So basically my only option and your only option would be to update all of the things that require older libraries on your [00:55:00] own. So I’m going to, we’ll be doing a whole lot of a Jekyll programming so that I can use the latest version of Jekyll. Uh, but the only reason I can’t is because I’ve written, uh, 25, some custom plugins that don’t work with the latest version of Jekyll.

[00:55:19] If I could revamp all of those plugins, uh, I could just, I could just update and I’d have my blog on my computer again, instead of having to SSH into my 2012 Mac mini that runs in the corner.

[00:55:32]Christina: [00:55:32] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was going to say your best bet might be honestly, I would like look at it and maybe Oracle will even be able to, I don’t know if you get like free credits or whatever, like I get free Azure credits and whatnot, but like, it might be worthwhile to have like a, a VPs someplace, um, where you could just have your scripts.

[00:55:51] So you wouldn’t even have to SSH into your, into your, um, you know, 2012, um, Mac mini. Like you just have like a small little dev box and just, it would just be a small [00:56:00] one, you know, small VPs running that has your scripts and stuff on it. And then just set up like, you know, a remote extension that way. Like, it’s one of the reasons I like visuals.

[00:56:08] I like visual studio code is the remote extension. I can like literally log into another machine and have like, even have containers running like that, but have it all natively like on my Mac. Um, and, uh, so that, that might be an option.

[00:56:26] Brett: [00:56:26] the other problem I’m running to running into with setup of these three different machines is the Oracle machine has a bunch of like you are according to company policy only supposed to install apps that are available through their software management system. And I floated that rule almost immediately.

[00:56:48] Uh, and I did, it would frown on what I’ve done with the machine. I have kept it secure. Uh, everything is encrypted. I use the VPN [00:57:00] except for half of the things I need to do for work. Are you can’t do with the VPN running. I can’t even use get with the VPN running, but I also can’t use, I can’t write it blocked all traffic, uh, right.

[00:57:16] It’s it’s, it’s intense. And, uh, I can’t use like zoom without the VPN running, so I can’t simultaneously be on zoom and pull a, get repo from get hub. It’s not ideal.

[00:57:33] Christina: [00:57:33] That’s not ideal. So how do, how do other people deal with that? Cause I can’t imagine that you’re the only person who needs to both be on zoom and use, get.

[00:57:41]Brett: [00:57:41] So I have a question and the it Slack channel, uh, to asking about how, how, if there’s a way to like tunnel through the VPN or something. Uh, at one point on I installed the VPN on the mini. [00:58:00] And it gave me the option to turn off filtering and then it didn’t actually seem to do that. And next time I looked that option was gone.

[00:58:09] So I have no idea what’s going on there. I, in order to install the VPN on my mini, I had to, you had to like, uh, trace the traffic. When I did the install on the Oracle machine, I had to trace the traffic, uh, cause you can’t install software when you’re not on the VPN and I didn’t have the VPN, so I couldn’t install the VPN software.

[00:58:32] So I traced, I trace it. Traffic figured out where the package was coming from, curled it onto the Mac mini and then was able to install the VPN, but they make it really hard to install the VPN on non-Oracle machines. It all seems a little bit, uh, convoluted to me. That’s been, that’s been a whole trial in and of itself.

[00:58:54] Christina: [00:58:54] Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, um, our setup, God, thankfully is not that [00:59:00] intense. Although there are a lot, I’m not surprised that. Like your stuff is locked down. I’m, I’m surprised you can’t use get in zoom at the same time on that seems really intense, but we do have weird things about how our machines are provisioned.

[00:59:13]Um, although it’s gotten better and they’ve, they’ve, especially, as people have been forced to work from home, they’ve had to get better about like, not requiring people to be logged into the VPN for everything. Some of the stuff can just be authenticated. Um, and in other ways, but like if people exactly, um, and, uh, you know, it helps when, when we own active directory.

[00:59:35] Um, and, uh, like, but we do have an instance, like people who want to use a Linux as their main machine, the VPN doesn’t work on Linux. However, however people have figured it out way to get a VPN that will be compatible with like whatever the Cisco VPN things we use is. And then there’s a way where you can extract the file and [01:00:00] run other commands and it’s completely unsupported, but people have, and they have it, you know, um, um, in, in the, the team stuff.

[01:00:06] And actually there’s even a documentation thing. And dev ops, like the describing the process of how you can get your VPN running on Linux. Um, that’s wholly unsupported, but people have been able to do so. I would, I would think that you are definitely not the only person at Oracle who running into this problem.

[01:00:24] And, uh, I would look for like, wherever your mailing lists or other sorts of things are, which are, if it’s like Microsoft. And, and I can’t imagine it’s that the similar most companies are like, this they’re probably exist in five or six different places. There’s, there’s probably a Slack. There’s probably like an actual mailing list.

[01:00:41] There might even be, you know, like, uh, uh, like. Some sort of, you know, website or in the intranet or whatever that people put stuff in.

[01:00:50]Brett: [01:00:50] The internet is like 10 different internets.

[01:00:53] Christina: [01:00:53] Oh God.

[01:00:54] Brett: [01:00:54] something cool though. Uh, there’s an authenticator app from Oracle that gives you every, [01:01:00] you know, like a, a, to F a six digit number, every 30 seconds. It changes. You can set that up and use it as GitHub to FAA too.

[01:01:09]Christina: [01:01:09] Awesome. So there

[01:01:10] Brett: [01:01:10] on it.

[01:01:11]Christina: [01:01:11] that’s awesome. Susie, that’s using the TFTP standard. I’m guessing?

[01:01:16] Brett: [01:01:16] I don’t know. A T O T P means this is one of those acronyms. I’d be looking up in the background during this meeting.

[01:01:21] Christina: [01:01:21] well, in CSEP I can’t think of what it stands for right now, but it basically Google started using it for a Google authenticator and so author uses it. Um, one password uses it. It’s

[01:01:31] Brett: [01:01:31] Yeah, this

[01:01:32] Christina: [01:01:32] thing, but like, if

[01:01:33] Brett: [01:01:33] basically an author cologne.

[01:01:35] Christina: [01:01:35] Yeah. So basically like if you scan a QR code, like when you’re setting up, you know, stuff like, so that’s TNTP, so that’s pretty awesome. Cause ours, our authenticator app, um, you can use with a lot of things, but it, it can’t, it can’t be a full, the clone. So like I still need to run author and my Microsoft one.

[01:01:52] Um, the nice thing about the Microsoft one is that it does not have a prompt where I think author does this too. But like if I’m, [01:02:00] I am at a website and it needs to open a notification will come up on my phone, I tap the banner and it immediately opens up the, yeah, I don’t have to like leave the website and go into the app. Like it’ll immediately, a little banner comes up and says, this needs your authorization. Tap it, unlock it. And then I can copy it and then go back. So

[01:02:24] Brett: [01:02:24] It would be, you know, how in, uh, iOS, whatever 12, I think it started. W if, uh, if, uh, uh, two OFA code shows up in messages, it’ll

[01:02:35] Christina: [01:02:35] Yes,

[01:02:35] Brett: [01:02:35] it’ll fill it in automatic. I wish they, I wish this could do that. It did take me a second to realize I could just tap the code to copy it instead of like trying to memorize it and switch back to the app.

[01:02:46] Obviously that should have been apparent to me, but yeah, anyway.

[01:02:52]Christina: [01:02:52] that’s nice that at least the two of a thing can be, you can like use one thing for everything, which is nice. Um, I have to use two to a Fe apps, [01:03:00] technically three, cause I also put for some things, I put it in one password. So it’ll, auto-fill um, we’re lucky in the sense that, and, and I didn’t realize this until after I’d been at Microsoft for a while and people who’d worked at other places.

[01:03:12] Like told us what it was like, they are pretty open about how you can provision your own machines. Um, cause you can bring your own machine and they’re even open about how you can provision like work issued ones. Um, like technically my, my Mac is a work issued machine, but it’s provisioned as if it’s my own, but there are still, like you said, like there are limitations and there’s some stuff you can do, nothing like running get and, and you know, the VB at the same time, like none of that, although if you’re on the corporate network, there are certain applications you can’t run.

[01:03:42] Like you can’t run a torrent client, it just won’t work. Um, which is understandable. Right? Like I get that. Um, but also there could be legitimate needs, needs to, you know, run a torrent client if you’re trying to download, um, like, uh, something that’s really difficult. So then what you have to do is you have to run a VPN on top of the [01:04:00] VPN,

[01:04:00] Brett: [01:04:00] Yeah. Do you want to hear one more tribulation?

[01:04:04] Christina: [01:04:04] I do. I absolutely do.

[01:04:05] Brett: [01:04:05] obviously I’m signing in and out of the VPN all the time. Right? It doesn’t store your credentials. You have to enter the password every time.

[01:04:14] Christina: [01:04:14] Oh, no. Oh no.

[01:04:16] Brett: [01:04:16] popping up one

[01:04:17] Christina: [01:04:17] Oh no.

[01:04:18] Brett: [01:04:18] for Oracle VPN, uh, right, right. Arrow, copied, entered a copy, refocus the dialogue and paste the anyway.

[01:04:28] So what I ended up

[01:04:30] Christina: [01:04:30] going to see up to this aren’t you

[01:04:31] Brett: [01:04:31] yeah, totally. I, uh, I ended up initially I put it on a key binding that I could just hit a sequence of keys and it filled in, but that’s that source the password in plain text, which I knew I

[01:04:43] Christina: [01:04:43] absolutely. That that’s

[01:04:44] Brett: [01:04:44] for.

[01:04:45] Christina: [01:04:45] 100% and that’s just a bad practice in general. Even if you wouldn’t get in trouble for it, you don’t want to do that.

[01:04:49] Brett: [01:04:49] Right. So what I’m doing is a keyboard Maestro macro that uses the command line security tool, uh, which can look up, [01:05:00] uh, passwords in your key chain, your encrypted key chain, and, uh, and, and dump them out in plain text.

[01:05:07] So basically I’m storing the password in key chain and being able to access it with a hot key, uh, which, which puts it behind my, at least behind my, uh, system login. So getting there almost, almost have this, uh, two, uh, why can’t it just store your credentials?

[01:05:28]Christina: [01:05:28] I mean, I agree that that seems like the dumbest thing in the world. I put in a link in the show notes for you to check out mostly, but, uh, there is a command line, um, uh, one password, uh,

[01:05:41] Brett: [01:05:41] there is, but it requires constant logging in.

[01:05:45] Christina: [01:05:45] Ah, okay, well then nevermind. Um,

[01:05:48] Brett: [01:05:48] the idea of it, but it’s, it’s not like you can’t use it in scripting. It doesn’t save you any, any time.

[01:05:55] Christina: [01:05:55] Oh, okay. Well then nevermind. Uh, cause that was my first thought. So, so you’ve, you’ve already done the best thing [01:06:00] because, um, you, you can, you can script it obviously with key chain. We’ll let you do that so bad, but at least you did that. Um, no, but I don’t understand why it doesn’t like, but like my, our, our VPN I’m pulling it up right now to like look at it.

[01:06:13] Yeah. Like it saves my credentials. Um, and, and I don’t, I’m very, I’m almost never on the VPN. There are a few intranet sites that require it. So ours is a global protect, which I think is Cisco. Uh, but, um, I, I don’t, yeah, like mine is like, my credentials are, are saved. Um, and, um, so I don’t have to deal with that, but they’ve slowly over the, again, it was all a pandemic.

[01:06:38] The, everybody having to work remotely. There are a few intranet sites that require you to be on the VPN to use, but they’ve slowly but surely gotten rid of that. And then just, uh, bumped up the, you know, um, uh, single sign on and, and active directory thing that said your machine does need to be in tuned, [01:07:00] which is, which is our, um, MDM or, or, you know, um, uh, you know, multi-device manager, uh, tool.

[01:07:06] And so if you’re trying to, for instance, even access a web mail on a machine that is not in tuned, you’re going to be Sol in most cases. So like, if you want to open up a document or access the intranet or do other stuff, you don’t have to be on the VPN, but you do have to have like the device manager client on your machine.

[01:07:29] Um, and if, and if you don’t have that, then you’re screwed. So some people really dislike that because they don’t want their machine. In tuned by the company. And then they were like, okay, well, you can’t access your work stuff. Right? Like, it’s, it’s a trade off. So like my personal machines are in tuned, but I, I do trust that when they tell me that they can only access, you know, certain things and they can’t read any of my other stuff or seeing my other things that I trust that’s accurate.

[01:07:54] Um, I haven’t run like a packet, you know, sniff thing on there, but I have a feeling [01:08:00] that, that if they were not doing that, that would be cause for concern. Um, but yeah, it it’s, it’s, it’s the corporate song, like, you know, song and dance stuff is always fun. Um, my favorite was when I was at, so when Univision bought Gizmodo.

[01:08:17]They tried to enforce a corporate policy on us. And we all had Gawker laptops who Gawker didn’t care. There was literally, no, there was nothing. Right. I don’t even think the, we, there was like, there was no provisioning whatsoever at all. And um, they wanted us all to move to Univision laptops, and they were like, Oh, we’ll give you a brand new laptop.

[01:08:36] It’ll just be better than your MacBook air or whatever. And I’m like, I don’t really want to be on your system. And then they told us, they’re like, okay. But the only thing is you can only download apps that are in the Mac app store. And if you need to do something like even change the time, like, cause you need an admin password, you’d have to call.

[01:08:54] And we on hold with the Univision massive corporation, um, tech support [01:09:00] and get permission to get an override so that you could change the clock. And, um, so I, they were really trying to force me into this and, you know, as a reporter for a lot of people, like you’re thinking, okay, well, you don’t need to install these apps.

[01:09:14] You don’t need to do this and that. And I’m like, no, I test stuff all the time. I run tools. I build things like. I, I get dirty with stuff like, even for testing latest version of Android, I need to run ADB and I need to like, have like a tool connected and I need to like use, I use Homebrew all the time.

[01:09:32] Like there’s stuff that I’m going to need. And so just as a test, and this was like, when it, when an Android thing was, was going on, like I was using one of those laptops and I waited on hold for like two and a half hours. To get through, to get permission, to somehow try to convince them to let me install it.

[01:09:47] And I timed it. And while this was happening, I refuse to work because I was like, this is going to be this, this was me also showing my ass a little bit. And I was like, okay, so I will do this, but just so you [01:10:00] know, this took me over three hours to get this one thing done, and I’m going to have to do this every single time.

[01:10:06] I need to install any sort of weird app or do anything that is slightly, you know, off, off spec. And that happens roughly, you know, at least four times a week. Um, maybe, you know, more, sometimes it might even be multiple times a day. So if you want to take out that loss of productivity, that’s fine. Um, needless to say, I was given an exemption immediately and totally did not have to use a company laptop.

[01:10:34]Brett: [01:10:34] Speaking of Oh, shit moments that was like, it was a segue like two minutes ago. But, uh, but then, then you kept talking, um,

[01:10:44] Christina: [01:10:44] kept talking. Cause I’m sorry. That’s what I do.

[01:10:47] Brett: [01:10:47] Sunday is mother’s day and I haven’t gotten anything. My mom will be getting some kind of gift card, probably Amazon. Uh, but for anyone getting this today who actually has time to do something about it, don’t forget some [01:11:00] days mother’s day. And.

[01:11:01] Christina: [01:11:01] Yes. Sunday is mother’s day. Love your moms. I got my mom. Well, the, the, the, the, the mother figures in your lives, like whatever. Um, I, uh, I got my mom, a Taylor Swift mug. No, but she was really touch. So Taylor Swift has a song called the best day that she read about her mom. And, um, it’s really sweet and it always makes me cry and it was rerecorded on fearless cause it came out on fearless.

[01:11:26] And because of course she just released fearless. She has all this merge that was associated with that for mother’s day, including mother’s day cards that had some of the lyrics on it that were sold out. By the time I got the, the email, which was upsetting, but I got a mug that said I had the best day with you today, which is like a lyric from the song.

[01:11:43] And I sent it to my mom and I was hoping to be there by mother’s day. And it arrived last week. And my mom just like sent me a text saying the mug and cause she didn’t know who it was from because it just was addressed to her. And I did a bad job with that. And I just assumed that she would know that if it’s a Taylor Swift, that it was [01:12:00] me.

[01:12:00] Apparently, she then texted a bunch of friends and was like, she’d spend time with them. And she was like, did you send this to me? And they’re like, we’ve no idea what you’re talking about. Then she Googled the lyrics, found the song, listen to it, cried and, um, and was, was, was like very, very touched. So I did manage to work Taylor Swift

[01:12:18] Brett: [01:12:18] I was going to say we had, we had, we had, uh, some health stuff. We had some tech stuff. We even had some politics and boom, we hit Taylor Swift in overtime.

[01:12:29] Christina: [01:12:29] We did an overtime now, but yeah, but shout out to your moms, the moms out there, um, I’m, I’m, I’m excited. I’m going to be here until the 15th. So next week we’ll be recording from Atlanta on the floor as well. Um, and, uh, I am excited to be able to spend my sister’s first mother’s day with her, which is, which is neat.

[01:12:49] Um, but yeah, uh, one more, I know we’re already over time, but one more quick thing. This is hilarious to me because I, I knew nothing about baby stuff. I know nothing about baby tech. And so [01:13:00] now I’m tired. I’m getting inundated into that world a little bit. And um, I want him to listen to cool music and I want him to have stuff.

[01:13:07] And so I was like going to buy a little Bluetooth speaker that could attach to the crib. And then I was like, but I don’t want that because I don’t want it to always have to be paired to a phone, to be able to play from Spotify or Apple music or whatever. And then I was like, well, maybe I should just get a home pod many.

[01:13:21] And that would work. But home pod mini still doesn’t work with Spotify. And my sister has Apple music, but me, but she might want to change. And like, I don’t know, I love the Apple ecosystem, but I always feel weird about forcing that on like family members. So Amazon makes an echo dot for kids, which is both horrifying, but amazing to me.

[01:13:41] So it’s an, it’s like the normal echo dot, but it looks like this one, one looks like a Panda and one looks like a tiger. I got the one that looks like a Panda and it apparently has like some kid controls who knows if the privacy things are any different. That is a Kelly problem to deal with that it’s not a Christina problem to deal with.

[01:13:57] But, um, I ordered one of those from [01:14:00] Amazon. And, uh, today I learned is one of those things. It was like, there was a whole lot of like baby tech shit, which I’ve been, I guess, like tangentially aware of, but I’ve never had to care directly before. Like it’s crazy. Yeah. I hope so. I hope so. Um, I’ve been buying lots of, um, shoes and clothes for him already.

[01:14:24] Brett: [01:14:24] Yeah, I just get to be weird. Uncle Brett. I’m the only, the only non-Christian in the family and the, I think they’re warned not to get too close to me, but

[01:14:35] Christina: [01:14:35] Yeah, no, it’s going to be awkward for Christian when he learns that his namesake Christina is in fact not religious, but again, that’s, that’s that’s that’s that’s that’s a future Christina problem to deal with. Um,

[01:14:47]Brett: [01:14:47] I feel like, I feel like it’s time. Like we, we, we didn’t even finish our list of topic. I told you we were going to fill the hour. We overfilled the

[01:14:58] Christina: [01:14:58] the hour.

[01:14:59] Brett: [01:14:59] We [01:15:00] over

[01:15:00] Christina: [01:15:00] We didn’t have an episode last week. We over Taylor over Taylor, that’s the best show in the, that, that, that almost could not, I almost want to say that episode title, but like that’s such a, that’s such a good, that’s so good.

[01:15:15] Brett: [01:15:15] Yeah, we’re, we’re gonna save that for an episode where we truly talk too much about Taylor Swift.

[01:15:21] Christina: [01:15:21] Absolutely. Maybe when she really, when she releases 1989 and that’s like your jam that that’ll be the over tailored episode.

[01:15:28] Brett: [01:15:28] All right. Well, Christina gets some sleep.

[01:15:31] Christina: [01:15:31] Get some sleep, read and congrats again on the new job. So happy for

[01:15:34] Brett: [01:15:34] Hey, thanks.