229: The One Where They Slept In The Middle

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20210303 0933 Guest

[00:00:00] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:00:00] So w you’re you’re now listening to what is going to be weird episode of over tired, uh, w w this is Brett and Christina from the future saying, saying when we started this. Uh, you’ll see, things were, things were different than they are now.

[00:00:18] So bear with us, get through the first half and we promise it gets better.

[00:00:24] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:00:24] It totally gets better also like. Let us know in the discord or on Twitter or wherever, like how much, uh, of, uh, how, how angry did I sound in the first part? Cause I don’t know, but I have a feeling that I was, I was pretty cranky.


[00:00:44] Hi, I’m Brett Terpstra. You’re listening to overtired. I’m here with Christina Warren who is extremely tired. How are you Christina?

[00:00:52]20210303 0933 Guest : [00:00:52] I’m so tired.

[00:00:55] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:00:55] Like, like, did you sleep at all?

[00:00:57] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:00:57] I mean, I got like, uh, like three [00:01:00] hours of sleep maybe. Um, And then after we do this, I will be lucky if I get another three hours of sleep. Um, and then I have to go back in for another six, seven hours, seven hours, another like seven hours of fly posting for Microsoft ignite

[00:01:18] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:01:18] Yeah, that seems unreasonable. Why, why, why, why are you asked to keep this schedule?

[00:01:25] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:01:25] because it’s Microsoft ignite. And I got the, uh, short end of the stick, um, schedule wise, actually like. I think only one team who were paired up probably didn’t get this sort of, uh, kind of bad schedule combo. So the way that it works is that we had like three different groups of, of hosting pairs who are, um, hosting content in like seven hour blocks.

[00:01:52] And, um, But there’s like an overlap period. Uh, when you, you pick up from the other other person and then you have [00:02:00] to get in at a certain time for, for call time for hair and makeup and stuff like that. So, um, there was one group that, you know, I think they had to be in at 6:00 AM and then they went live at eight yesterday and they went from eight until, I guess like, you know, like, uh, one, um, or, or, or two.

[00:02:21] And then the next group went from two until nine, and then we went from nine until three. Um, but the, the group that went from, um, two until nine had to be back in at six and then we had to be back in at, um, my call time. Is it, uh, 1230? Uh, and then, um, the next, um, or one o’clock rather, and then the next group is, um, We’ll be taking over from us at, uh, like 9:00 PM, but we’ll do the switch off at like eight 30.

[00:02:56] So they’re only the people who went, who went [00:03:00] first and are also going last a half, like a long period of time between their ships and, and the rest of us. It’s just, uh, it’s just how it works.

[00:03:10] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:03:10] I, uh, historically, if anyone asked me to do anything close to that kind of schedule, I would, I would either put my foot down or I’d just quit, which is why I don’t have a job anymore.

[00:03:24] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:03:24] Well, and,

[00:03:24] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:03:24] it.

[00:03:25] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:03:25] and in fairness to be totally honest, I mean, this is the thing where I should, we should have recorded this yesterday. I should have found a way to record this yesterday. And that way I would have been able to have an interrupted sleep. The thing that’s going to kill me is the fact that. We, uh, I got like three hours of sleep.

[00:03:41] I had to do the recording or show, which I’m excited to do, but I’m very tired. And then going to try to get another period of, of sleep before I have to wake up again and go in. So

[00:03:53] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:03:53] so there is such a thing as too tired.

[00:03:56]20210303 0933 Guest : [00:03:56] I guess so I guess, so

[00:03:59] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:03:59] lesson.

[00:04:00] [00:03:59] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:03:59] that is, that is today’s lesson. So yeah. And the thing is, is it’s, it’s both tired from like, Lack of sleep, but also exhaustion because I’ve been like, it’s a lot of work. Uh, it, when you, when you, you know, see like hosting stuff, like you think, Oh, it’s not a big deal, you know, just talking to a camera.

[00:04:17] Um, but there’s like energy required to have to keep that up and to have to keep up the momentum and whatnot. And so, yeah, so I’m, uh, I’m dragging ass and for that, I apologize, but the event is great.

[00:04:29] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:04:29] We’re going to be okay, we’re going to, we’re going to make this a, a shorter than usual episode. Uh we’re we’re primarily doing this because we have a couple of fantastic sponsors that have paid us to do this show and, you know, we’re nothing, if not good for our, our, our good to our word. So, uh, do you wanna, do you wanna, uh, do a very tired read about multivitamins?

[00:04:55] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:04:55] Actually, yeah, this, um, this is a very apt ad read [00:05:00] and, uh, to be totally honest, this is one of those, this is like a perfect instructive reason why it’s good to take a multivitamin. I’m not even joking when you, once you, you know, like, Combat both tiredness and sleepiness and exhaustion. There we go, because they’re the sleepiness and exhaustion.

[00:05:21] All right. So this episode is brought to you by ritual and you might be surprised to learn that the typical multivitamins, uh, they can contain sugars and synthetic fibers and artificial colorants. And that’s mentioned all kinds of animal byproducts, like sheep, swollen, gelatin from hubs and hides, which we’re going to, but ritual is not your typical multivitamin, uh, rituals, clean, vegan, friendly formula is made with key nutrients in forms that your body can actually use.

[00:05:52] No shady extras and all of rituals, nutrients come in bioavailable forms so that your body can [00:06:00] actually use them. And it’s also, non-GMO gluten and allergen-free, which is great. I really like ritual and I have to say I probably would be an even worse shape and would probably feel. Even more exhausted if I was not now taking a multivitamin.

[00:06:17] And what I like about Richelle is that my vitamins show up at my doorstep every single month. All I have to do is pop a couple in the morning. And then like I filled that nutrient gap in my diet in God knows, based on what I eat or don’t eat. I have a. Nutrient gap. So it’s super, super convenient. Virtual multivitamins are delivered to your door every single month.

[00:06:41] You get free shipping. Always you can start, you can snooze, or you can cancel your subscription at any time. And if you don’t like a virtual, if you don’t love ritual within your first month, they will even refund your order. So you’re literally are losing nothing. Um, they have all [00:07:00] kinds of different formulas.

[00:07:00] I take the formula. That is focused on women, but you can also, you know, get, um, get one that’s, you know, uh, geared more towards your, your age or gender and you deserve to know what’s in your multivitamin. And that’s why ritual is offering our listeners. And this is great, 10% off during your first three months.

[00:07:20] So visit ritual.com/overtired. Start your ritual today.

[00:07:26] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:07:26] Yay. Vitamins, vitamins and sleep.

[00:07:31] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:07:31] I mean, honestly, uh, I not to reread the ad, but I do feel like I would beat being like, or shape if I were not taking a multivitamin now. So.

[00:07:42] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:07:42] Yeah. Um, so I have been sleeping, but I’m back on that thing where I sleep like. Maybe an hour lesson night than I should. And I don’t feel rested. So it like piles up over time. And like every day I feel a little [00:08:00] bit more tired and it’s not like, like I can function fine, but everything feels a little bit more overwhelming to me. I get more and more like scared to go outside.

[00:08:12] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:08:12] Now, do you have notes? Okay. So like everyday, like you’re getting an hour less sleep than you should, but not an hour, less than the night before, but at the end of the week, Can you just like sleep in all day on like a Saturday or a Sunday or no?

[00:08:27] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:08:27] is I could sleep in every day. Like I, the earliest I actually have to get up is like seven, but I. Typically, I wake up like five, five 30 and that’s. So like last week I was depressed. I was at the end of like a two week long depression. And then right after we recorded, I had like a brief manic episode and it only lasts.

[00:08:54] I only, I only was sleepless entirely sleepless for one night. I got like two hours of sleep. And then the [00:09:00] next day I was in a zombie, but then I just started sleeping again. But that like seven hours a night. So I feel like I’ve never really fully recovered, but I will say I’m in a lot higher energy in better shape than you are right now.

[00:09:14] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:09:14] You are, this is like a we’re in rare form right now. I have to say, we’ve been doing this. I don’t even know how many years at this point,

[00:09:20] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:09:20] Who knows? It’s

[00:09:21] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:09:21] seven years, it is a noble it’s seven years, but, uh, it, you know, we’ve had periods of off times, but I think this is one of the few times that I can recall more. I’ve felt like you have more energy than me.

[00:09:37] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:09:37] Yeah. Uh, um, I got my, I got my U H K V two.

[00:09:44] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:09:44] Ooh, let’s talk about that. Cause we were talking about keyboards last week and how I was going down that rabbit hole and Twitter made it worse. So, uh, and everybody on Twitter now wants me to build and sold her and do my own keyboard, which I, I don’t want to [00:10:00] do. I don’t think, but I don’t know. Um, but I want to hear about the uhk too, because.

[00:10:05] You are the H came in and you’ve been waiting for this. So you, you not only got the keyboard early, but you also got all of the modules that everybody has been waiting for it. Right.

[00:10:16] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:10:16] is correct, but, but the, uh, the keyboards showed up and the thing about the ultimate hacking keyboard is it’s completely customizable everything from like tilt and angle and risk for us to what keys do, what things. And I have a very particular way. I want mine set up. So the first thing I did was load up the, the agent that writes to the firmware and start customizing, but nothing would write to the keyboard.

[00:10:45] And I contacted, uh, the developer and turns out after sending, uh, error, logs and whatnot that they put the wrong bootloader on. And [00:11:00] so the options I have. Are to go out, buy a probe and a soldering kit. And, uh, and by the, the correct, like pin, uh, solder it all back together and then use the probe to flash new.

[00:11:18] I don’t like this is all foreign language to me, but to flash new firmware to it, uh, or a new bootloader or ship it back to Hungary, let them do it and wait for them to ship it back to me. I will say, as of this morning, I chose the latter option and just scheduled my DHL pickup,

[00:11:38]20210303 0933 Guest : [00:11:38] Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I think that cause you and I are both fairly technical people, uh, uh,

[00:11:47] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:11:47] for you.

[00:11:48] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:11:48] Right. I was going to say, but like, where I draw the line, like, I’m like very much like a software person. Right. Um, and, but, but as soon as you say, like, I need you to J tag something or I need you to solve or [00:12:00] something, and I’m going to take that solder.

[00:12:03] Like I need to solder a point so I can flash the firmware. That’s when I’m like, okay. You know, I’m, I’m going to mess something up. Right. Um, like I don’t even know if you have a soldering gun. Uh, you probably do, but who knows?

[00:12:17] 20210303 0933 Brett: [00:12:17] Like I, like I used to, I used to modify like police scanners to pick up like taxi cab transmissions and stuff like that. Like just little hacks, you know, it’s basically like changing one connection and suddenly you open up new bandwidth and I can do it. I’m just, I haven’t done it for 20 years.

[00:12:35] I have no confidence in it. And. I like, um, I’m good at welding, but when it gets down to that really fine stuff, I don’t have feeling in my fingertips and I don’t have steady hands. And it just seems like I would, I would fuck it up.

[00:12:51] 20210303 0933 Guest : [00:12:51] Yeah, I can, I can, uh, respect that. I mean, I think that the thing with this too, like, even with me. This is one of the things that I’ve kind [00:13:00] of looked at it with, like wanting to like build and have like a custom keyboard, which is a little bit different than what the, the, uh, uhk, uh, two is. Um, but this is like one of those things where I’m like, ah, you know, uh, why I’m like, I don’t know if I want to do this or not.

[00:13:14] I feel like I could. Solder the points on the board to add in the switches, because that would, that, that would be more time consuming than it would be, you know, having to be very specific and, you know, and whatnot, it would be like, there’d be an opportunity for me to mess something up. But a lot of that really would be kind of a paint by numbers thing.

[00:13:34] It would just be really time-consuming, but for what you would need to do, if you need to be like, it’s a very fine point sort of thing, where I’m.

[00:13:48] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:13:50] Well, that was weird. It’s like, uh, it’s like we were super tired and then my internet dropped out completely and we just said, fuck it. [00:14:00] Let’s sleep. And we’ll put it out a day late.

[00:14:04] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:14:04] Right. And so what’s, what’s happened since then, and it’s kind of amazing that your internet died. I’m not gonna lie. I was a little annoyed because I was so tired and I was like, I woke up for this, but. I mean, I was relieved, but then it took me like 30 minutes to get back to sleep. So it was one of those things, but no, but I am also I’m happy because I was totally not on my game at all for like the first segment of our show.

[00:14:35] But now I’ve had some sleep. I finished my second, like eight hour hosting shift at Microsoft ignite. I had some sleep and now like, I feel energized. How are you feeling?

[00:14:48] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:14:48] I feel the same, but that’s still better than you were yesterday. So

[00:14:54] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:14:54] For sure. For sure.

[00:14:56] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:14:56] you wait within like 30 seconds of when, when I [00:15:00] first called you before we started recording, you told me I was being too animated. I had said like five words and you’re like, calm down.

[00:15:08] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:15:08] I know I was so grumpy, but also tired. It was one of those things where like everything was loud and yeah.

[00:15:16] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:15:16] I usually hide. I would, I would have canceled doing the podcasts if it had been me.

[00:15:23]20210304 0832 Guest : [00:15:23] Well, I didn’t, I didn’t like, I didn’t feel like I could and I was just like, I’ve committed and yeah. So

[00:15:30] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:15:30] I also wouldn’t have been able to get through like an eight hour live hosting thing. I just, I don’t have it in me to put myself through that kind of thing.

[00:15:41] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:15:41] Yeah, no, I mean, it’s, it’s not for everyone for sure. So,

[00:15:46] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:15:46] so, you know what I did last night,

[00:15:48] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:15:48] What was that?

[00:15:49] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:15:49] I slept on a very nice mattress.

[00:15:52] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:15:52] Oh, tell me about it

[00:15:54] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:15:54] I should. I feel like, I feel like I’m getting paid to, to mention this now. [00:16:00] Um, I should, I should bring up the read. Okay. So. As you are fully aware. We are often very tired. Uh, my brain doesn’t always let me sleep. And Christina has, uh, uh, sometimes very crazy work schedule.

[00:16:16] But when my brain cooperates, my body loves my helix mattress. I, uh, I went to their website and I took their two minute quiz and they matched my body type and my sleep preferences to what they called the midnight mattress. I love that it’s not a one size fits all kind of company. And, uh, and after a few months of sleeping on this midnight mattress, I can say they got it.

[00:16:38] Absolutely. Right. So if you had to helix. Helix sleep.com/overtired. You can take the quiz yourself and find out what mattress you should be sleeping on. They have soft, medium and firm mattresses, mattresses. Great for cooling you down a few sleep hot and even a helix plus mattress for plus sized folks.

[00:16:59] Oh, and they were [00:17:00] awarded the number one best overall mattress pick of 2020 by GQ and wired magazine. So if you want to sleep better and be less overtired. Take the quiz order the mattress, your match too. And it will come right to your door, shipped for free. And if you use our link helix, it’s offering over-tired listeners up to $200 off all mattress orders and two free pillows.

[00:17:23] Just go to helix sleep.com/overtired. There’s a 10 year warranty and you get to try it out for a hundred nights. Risk-free they’ll even pick it up for you. If you don’t love it. So, if you’re ready to sleep better, that’s helix.com/overtired. You won’t regret it. And we got through two ad reads, uh, on, uh, we’re going to call this an off week

[00:17:46] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:17:46] Yeah. Yeah, this is definitely not like a super normal week, but we did get through, um, two ad reads.

[00:17:53] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:17:53] I feel like we, we really gave it our all.

[00:17:55]20210304 0832 Guest : [00:17:55] Yes, 100%.

[00:17:57] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:17:57] I mean, we gave all, we had to [00:18:00] give, if I were a sponsor, I’d be like, you know what, they really, they really put in the effort, this was worth it. Did you know that? Uh, so back in the seventies, they predicted, uh, that the within 10 years world population was going to become too large to sustain.

[00:18:21] And like, it was. Going to be the end of the world. And now they expected a baby boom during COVID. We didn’t get it. People are too concerned about both health and finances. So there’s like, Oh, we’re on the verge of the opposite crisis. Now, uh, young people, aren’t having enough babies to support the massive number of old people that are getting to retirement age.

[00:18:45] Now,

[00:18:49] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:18:49] That’s

[00:18:50] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:18:50] did you have?

[00:18:51] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:18:51] this, this is none.

[00:18:55] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:18:55] me either. I got of his sect me. I feel like I really screwed over the boomers.

[00:19:01] [00:19:00] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:19:01] Yeah, no, I, I mean, I I’ve been very clear with everyone in my life that I’m not going to be a parent. So like,

[00:19:11] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:19:11] go ahead.

[00:19:12] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:19:12] I was just going to say, like I always said, and this was like true. I was like, if my sister needed a surrogate, I would have done that. Right. But that would have been, and I meant it when I told her I would do that because we thought that she would never, we didn’t think that she would be able to take carry.

[00:19:31] Um, that has obviously not been the case and she is going to have a baby in may, but that was always what we assumed. And. As I’ve gotten older and she’s gotten older, I kind of even assumed I was like, all right, well, I guess I got out of this whole surrogate thing, but like, that was my whole thing. I was like, if I had to be someone surrogate, like my sister, or like a very like good, like same-sex couple like good friends or whatever, who really couldn’t find anyone else fine.

[00:19:58] But that was [00:20:00] always like, as much as I was willing to do.

[00:20:02] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:20:02] I, uh, I was on my way to the, uh, to LARC toys to buy Easter, like just little basket stuffers for my nine, uh, nieces and nephews between Ella and I, we buy for everybody. So between the two of us, we, I think. Let me see five, three, eight to buy for eight kids, which seemed like a lot. And on our way to the store, I get a text message, a group text from my sister saying she’s pregnant again.

[00:20:34] And she’s having another baby. And I got to say, I felt like it w like it was a slight against me. Like I felt like they were just trying to make my life harder. I immediately made it about me.

[00:20:49]20210304 0832 Guest : [00:20:49] I mean, I think that this is actually probably why you got the sec dummy,

[00:20:54] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:20:54] it really is because I’m a selfish asshole.

[00:20:59] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:20:59] but you’re [00:21:00] aware of that. Right. So that’s a good thing. So, right. So there you go.

[00:21:05] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:21:05] Yeah. Right. I always said I would adopt, you know, like try to curb the population. I didn’t realize that we were going to run short of people. Yeah, well, so I don’t expect to live. I don’t expect the world’s actually going to be in any kind of a non dystopian state by the time I retire.

[00:21:26] So not really concerned about having enough young people to drain the blood from.

[00:21:33] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:21:33] I mean, I’ve totally would like, I think Peter Sheila’s a monster, but if the whole, like, you know, Blood transfusion thing really did like revive like youth. I would be down with that, but that would basically be like the only reason I would be upset. Like if we had like, I mean, obviously we don’t want the world to end because we don’t have enough people, but I also feel like a lot of this could be curved simply by China lifting its one child policy,

[00:22:00] [00:21:59] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:21:59] well, so

[00:22:00] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:22:00] which they’ve done, you know, they’ve had a soft limit on that, but it’s still not something that’s like overly encouraged or that happens very frequently.

[00:22:09] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:22:09] It’s not that the world is short of human beings. Like there are just, there are way too many people. It’s just that we structured our economy, uh, such that having a F a F an influx of working age people to support retired people. Is, uh, is vital. And I feel like if, if things were a little more, uh, like socialist and it, and it weren’t, if everyone wasn’t scraping by right now, it wouldn’t be a huge problem.

[00:22:43] I’m not an economist. And I don’t, I don’t understand all the math behind it, but it seems to me like there are actually enough people in the world we’re just really bad with money.

[00:22:54] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:22:54] Yeah. I mean, I think that’s probably the biggest thing and it’s also, it’s one of those things that it’s, I mean, on the one hand, I [00:23:00] do agree with you that in general, we should probably go more. Socialist, although I’m going to be a bad leftist and say that I don’t actually believe in total socialism. Um, I, I think that that is very problematic as well.

[00:23:14] There’s, there’s a balance and there are some Scandinavian countries in some European countries that do it well, but I actually am not a full-blown like socialist in like the, the Marxist sense or whatever, but, uh, there was a time, you know, before. 401ks. And, and everybody kind of was like, do it on your own where you worked a job and you got a pension. And that was a thing. And there are still some careers that have that. Right. But it’s very rare. And I feel like there’s a balance that could be done to put the burden on. Cause, cause the thing is, it’s also not like we were running out of money. Like we have corporations and we have certain like very, very, very, very wealthy individuals who have an outsized proportion of that wealth.

[00:24:00] [00:23:59] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:23:59] outsized.

[00:24:00] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:24:00] And so it’s one of those things where I’m kind of like, okay, you know, like the, the right, like, like the, like the, the complete, like free market. I don’t even want to say capitalist because I don’t even believe it’s truly capitalist argument, to be honest, but like the total, like free market argument about, you know, 401k is, Oh, you know, you can choose what you can do with your money and this and this and this.

[00:24:20] And it’s like, yeah, but I would much rather have a guaranteed, you know, um, Retirement. If I work at a place for a long period of time or something going into, you know, a, a fund, um, then the fact that, I mean like you and I have paid into social security, which we will never see a dime of ever, which is

[00:24:41] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:24:41] I, I heard. I heard that the big, the, like, that was kind of like a definitive, like 10 years ago, they were like, yeah, this generation generation X, uh, isn’t there, we’re going to run dry, but that seems to have, uh, uh, become more of a point of [00:25:00] debate. Uh, in the last five years I I’ve heard, heard actually you’re going to be fine.

[00:25:06] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:25:06] I don’t think so. I mean, generation X, some, some, some generation X people might and generation X. We also should note that it was actually a very small generation in terms of the number of people. And, and it’s a unit it’s period of time, which is up for debate. There are obviously a lot of millennials, which I’m part of, and then there are tons of the zoomers.

[00:25:29] I feel pretty confident that, you know, I’ve got another 30 years minimum of working and that I’m not going to see a single cent of anything that I paid into. Like not a single cent, like no question.

[00:25:44] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:25:44] Yeah, I don’t foresee myself ever retiring. I can’t, I have too much debt to live on social security. I have like zero, I split my 401k, uh, like, like quit my job. [00:26:00] So my 401k stopped being contributed to then I got divorced and I split it with a D D and then I went broke and I was paying like $1,200 a month in health insurance and started.

[00:26:12] Uh, tapping into my 401k early and I got nothing. Like I, I have no, uh, unless things really turn around and I get like a really high paying job in the next few years. I’ll probably work into my eighties. It’s about if I live that long, my family does not have a history of living past seventies.

[00:26:35]Yeah. This is fun.

[00:26:38] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:26:38] I was going to say, I was like, all right, I’m not, I’m depressed now. Um, we’re working, we’re going to work forever. Um,

[00:26:44] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:26:44] depressed.

[00:26:45] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:26:45] basically.

[00:26:47] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:26:47] Uh, the other news that I, I, that caught my eye since we had, you know, 24 hours to really think about what we’re going to talk about. I can only read the first four [00:27:00] paragraphs of this article because I don’t pay for the wall street journal. It never will. Um, but it says.

[00:27:06] That Google plants, the stop selling ads based on individual browsing across multiple websites. So do you know anything about this? Cause that is, that’s like, that’s a huge part of the ad revenue for a huge portion of internet advertising.

[00:27:24] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:27:24] Yeah. So I looked into this and it is, it seems to be.

[00:27:31]There seems to be a lot of debate over whether like, like what this actually means, like, like what definitive, like purposes is going to have. So, so Google came out and basically said like, it, it, um, it like clarified its plans basically around targeted advertising, basically saying that it’s not going to use other ways to track users, um, around the internet, once it in support for, uh, for, uh, third-party cookies in Chrome by early 20, 22.

[00:27:58] Um, [00:28:00] And, and then like in, they had a blog post and it said something like I’m paraphrasing from CNBC here, because this came out after the, the wall street journal, um, uh, article came up, which raised more questions. Uh, they basically says, um, they’ll use privacy preserving technologies that rely on methods like anonymization or aggregation of data.

[00:28:19] And that they, they did announce in January that they were going to end support for third party cookies. And, um, In, in its, in its digital advertising system and within the Chrome browser within two years. So on the one hand, like this is good because third party cookies have kind of been, um, uh, Scouts on, on the, the world.

[00:28:42] On the other hand, I have questions about how much Dionne D anonymization and, and other stuff, some of these, like. Ways that they claim are going to be privacy focused are actually going to work.

[00:28:58] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:28:58] T uh, [00:29:00] anonymization D anonymization would be horrifying.

[00:29:03] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:29:03] No, exactly. No, no, no. Well that that’s, I guess my point, I guess my, my buy, I said it wrong. So like, yeah. I I’m I’m I’m I’m not, I’m not really sure how well these anonymization and aggregation things will work. If that makes any sense. I, I wonder if those will still be able to be de anonymized.

[00:29:20]To the point that they can still be tied back to an individual.

[00:29:26] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:29:26] Yeah, well, and I guess, like, I see that the ad industry, if you look at, uh, like targeted ads, uh, that, that come through Facebook and Instagram, they’re very much focused on, uh, purchase history and sentiment. And I think sentiment tracking is, uh, it’s invasive to privacy and I’m a little more worried about.

[00:29:52] Sentiment tracking as far as, uh, it just feels so, uh, invasive to me, [00:30:00] uh, that I’m more worried about that than I am about them. Knowing that I visited certain websites.

[00:30:06] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:30:06] Right. I mean, I think that, that my concern has always been, and I think the broader concern has always been like, It’s one thing for data, for it’s one thing for, for Facebook or Google or Apple or Microsoft, or whoever to know about your, your habits like that they’ve tracked across their properties. It’s another thing when they sell that data to other people that can then be aggregated and uses a profile for you like that, I think is honestly the bigger concern.

[00:30:30] And that’s always been the bigger concern for me is the fact that, and that’s been the way that it’s worked with these third-party cookies. Is that. You’ve been able to build a really robust profile from those cookies that have been on basically every website and the Google, you know, was really kind of a leader and they didn’t create it, but they certainly exploited it.

[00:30:47] Um, as part of their, their ad networks to basically be able to create a remarkably robust profile that could then be sold to various ad exchanges to target you [00:31:00] however you want it. And so I feel like. Getting rid of that, I think is a definitely a good thing. And I I’m, I’m glad that Google is doing that.

[00:31:09] Um, but I still feel like, as you said, a there there’s there’s sentiment, there’s targeted, there’s other stuff, and I’m not real clear. And the way that the wall street journal report was written, I’m not real clear that like Google has said, Oh, we’re not going to be using any other methods, you know, to kind of get around, getting rid of, of third-party cookies.

[00:31:30] But I’m still not real clear on like, okay, but your first party approach, how much data and information do you know from that? And you’re saying that you’re going to aggregate it, but do you still really know this stuff? And is this still tracks somewhere? You know what I mean? Like, I don’t know. I’m, I’m, I’m sort of skeptical because, because they’re talking about.

[00:31:46] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:31:46] trust Google.

[00:31:47] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:31:47] Hell. No. Now, you know, I mean, cause they’re calling this thing, your privacy sandbox, uh, I’m now reading directly from the wall street journal and said, Google says it will use new technologies. It is, um, it is developing with others. That’s always [00:32:00] problematic to developing with others and what it calls a privacy sandbox to target ads without collecting information about individuals from multiple websites.

[00:32:08] Once this technology analyzes user’s browsing habits on their devices and allows advertisers to target aggregated groups of users with similar interests or cohorts rather than individual users. Google said in January that it plans to begin open testing of ad buying using that technology in the second quarter.

[00:32:23] So the total like cynic in me is saying that a, what they just described is kind of that sentiment. Um, I guess like tracking sort of like targeted advertising that you said that you were worried by. So it’s not as if you’re not still going to be getting advertising targeted to you. It’s just that ideally this profile of who you are and all the things and all the millions of data points that are available about you don’t get sold on mass because they’re tied to a third-party cookie on your machine, but it’s not as if you, and based on the things that you do online, aren’t [00:33:00] still going to be getting targeted advertising.

[00:33:01] They’re just claiming, Oh, well, we won’t know who you are. So.

[00:33:04] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:33:04] mean, you’ll be, you’ll be sold as part of a group, which is more, more anonymous than being directly targeted by advertising. So that that’s a step in the right direction. Yeah. Uh, w I had mentioned, uh, I think it was on this show that I, I was gonna stop sending, tracking pixels with email newsletters, but then I heard from a bunch of people doing everything from like full on email marketing to sending out church newsletters, who said that they actually, the data they got just from knowing open rates.

[00:33:40] What is useful enough and it was not like it, they, nobody seemed to think it was actually a privacy invasion. So no I’m torn. I think I will send them because it is handy to know open rates.

[00:33:55] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:33:55] No. I mean, that’s kind of my feeling on a newsletter. I also feel like if I’m being honest, like [00:34:00] I’m creeped out by what superhuman and some of the other pixel tracking things do where you can be like, Oh, this person opened your email X times or this person. And we talked about that. Like that bothers me.

[00:34:10] And I have friends who will write as a gotcha in their stories. You know, using the service. I, I found out that this person read the email. I sent them multiple times, but didn’t respond. And I’m like, okay, first of all, kind of fuck off. Right? Like, that’s not cool. If someone did that to you, some of these same people would be writing about how, what an invasion.

[00:34:29] It was like some genuinely, some of these same people would be writing those things. So part of me, I’m kind of like, okay, fuck off with that. But on the other hand, I also feel like with the newsletter, especially if I’ve subscribed to it, uh, it might be a little bit different if it’s a marketing newsletter that I did not opt into, the just kind of came to me because I bought something from somewhere.

[00:34:47] But if I make the decision to subscribe to a newsletter, I implicitly feel like I am giving my permission for there to be. A way for people to track openly like, like open rates and [00:35:00] also like what links I click, maybe I’m overly estimating the rec the rest of the public on that. I’d love to hear from our listeners, like what they think, but, um, I’m not, I don’t like being, you know, tracked and targeted and I certainly would not mind if there was a pop-up.

[00:35:17] In male clients that basically let you know that those pixels are there. Like, I, I wouldn’t be mad at that. Right. Even, even if it comes across as like shaming, like that’s fine with me. I feel like you could include even like a, an addendum or a small print, like in the newsletter to be like, yes, I use a tracking pixel it’s for this reason.

[00:35:36] Um, and, and people could do with it, what they wanted, but like, I’m not personally bothered by a newsletter that I choose to subscribe to you. Choosing to track whether I’ve opened something or not. And, um, you know, what links I’ve clicked. And in fact, I just kind of assumed that they’re going to do that because why else would they want me to sign up for an email newsletter?

[00:35:57] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:35:57] Yeah, well, so like I talked about how [00:36:00] MailMate has a built-in blocking and a big red bar that shows up and I’ve realized maybe that bar needs to be less red. Uh, like when I opened an email and the top, like half inch of it is a bright red bar that it makes me feel this sense of like, Oh no, they’ve done something awful and they’ve been caught, but maybe that bar should just be a little.in the corner that says we, we blocked a pixel or notifies you that there is a pixel in the, I feel like it’s a bit severe now that I’ve gone through this whole conversation.

[00:36:36] I just feel like it’s a bit severe.

[00:36:40] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:36:40] Yeah, yeah. I’m with that. I mean, I, like I said, I do think services like superhuman are super gross, but, um, I, I don’t know. I feel like if you subscribe to, if you make the decision to subscribe to like an email newsletter, I’m personally okay. With people tracking whether or not it opened or not, because as you said, like it’s not, it is [00:37:00] useful information.

[00:37:00] And I don’t know, I kind of feel like the same way with people who are like, Oh, I don’t need, I don’t want any analytics on my website. It’s like, I mean, okay. I guess, but that, that also strikes me is. You know, simplistic and I don’t know. Um, also I’m like, I’m, I’m, I’m, uh, I’m personally like a curious motherfucker, like I’m, I’m nosy and I want to know the things, but again, like, I think there’s a difference too.

[00:37:26] It’s like, I don’t know who this individual was. Right.

[00:37:28] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:37:28] don’t have there, you don’t know who the individual was and you’re not trying to collect and sell that data. You’re using it for your own own purposes internally. And I do think there’s a difference there. It’s just when people use Google analytics, there’s, you know, the concern that it’s not just being used internally, they’re just adding to Google’s data set,

[00:37:50] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:37:50] Right. Which now, apparently, which is not an an, you know, fair thing. But now apparently, you know, if Google is not going to be selling that information, [00:38:00] maybe it becomes easier to understand. I’m not sure, you know, that the thing is, is a lot of times, even when you have, when you block third party tracking, Google analytics, doesn’t get blocked because it’s considered a first party cookie.

[00:38:09] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:38:09] really? Huh? This Ghostery black Google analytics.

[00:38:14] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:38:14] Yeah, it does. Uh, if you, if you directly enable in some of those scripts, like go straight in and you block origin, if you have certain privacy settings on. You know, from certain privacy lists and there are certain other ones that will, but in terms of like what the browsers do by default, they don’t block it.

[00:38:28] Not even Mozilla, like they don’t block Google analytics. And in fact, Firefox, I’m sorry. Like I know that we love Mozilla here, but they’re big fucking hypocrites because a, they sell a VPN service that they get money from. That’s not even like a real good one. From what I understand, there’s there’s like some weird.

[00:38:44] Stuff with it or maybe I’m wrong. Actually, I take that back. I think that the one there with is fine, but they sell a VPN service. So that in and of itself is sketch the own pocket, which, you know, they there, and now they’re selling, you know, sponsored, um, you know, tabs on, on the homepage, but they also have fucking [00:39:00] Google analytics on their website and on their blogs and stuff.

[00:39:03] So, you know, they talk about, Oh, we, we don’t want to have any sort of tracking of this and that. And then they track. Stuff on their own website. And I’m like, right, because it can be useful, right? Like to me, don’t take like a completely like anti any tracking line. If you’re going to be tracking shit yourself, like at least be open and honest and be like, it’s nuanced and it’s complicated.

[00:39:25] And we don’t want to sell this information or have it tied to a specific person, but we are also nosy motherfuckers.

[00:39:32] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:39:32] you know, with Google analytics, you can turn on and off demographic tracking. Which greatly, if you turn off demographic tracking, it greatly reduces the amount of personal information that you’re gathering. I feel like in a case like Mozilla, that could say we use Google analytics to track, uh, very anonymized details about traffic, but we’re not collecting all of this other data that Google [00:40:00] makes available.

[00:40:00] Um, And, and like, I mean, we’ve talked about alternatives to Google analytics, which I do feel like Mozilla would, uh, be wise to take advantage of. But

[00:40:13] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:40:13] I mean, if nothing else from an optics perspective, like to me, it’s not even like it. Cause I don’t, I don’t care. Like Missoula can do whatever the hell Mozilla wants to do. I mean, awesome. Zilla. Let’s be very, like, let’s be very clear is only in business as I both a nonprofit and like as a for-profit entity because of Google.

[00:40:29] So. Like literally all of their money comes from Google and they laid off a bunch of people because Google cut how much they give firebox every year. And, you know, cause they give them like $200 million a year. Um, so you know, there there’s massive

[00:40:45] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:40:45] Firefox money?

[00:40:47] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:40:47] because Google is the default search engine in Firefox.

[00:40:51] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:40:51] yeah.

[00:40:51] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:40:51] And when, and when Yahoo was trying to still be a thing, Yahoo paid them more than Yahoo was bought by oath and or [00:41:00] Yahoo, Yahoo was then became oath or whatever. And. Had to like, they basically ended their agreement with Firefox early. I think there was some sort of settlement where Firefox probably got paid out what they’d been promised, even though the agreement didn’t continue.

[00:41:15] And, um, then they resigned with Google and then Google, because Google is in a much greater position of power has like cut how much they are going to give Firefox, but they still give them like $200 billion a year. So yeah.

[00:41:30] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:41:30] do you want to hear a super funny joke that Al made up this morning?

[00:41:34] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:41:34] I do.

[00:41:34] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:41:34] Do you know what Pangea is the supercontinent. Like prior to, uh, the, like the F the earth, as we know it today, like all the continents were joined

[00:41:45] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:41:45] Yeah. It was all in Africa. And then it split up right.

[00:41:48] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:41:48] And I mentioned this randomly in con uh, conversation over coffee this morning and her immediate response without batting an eye, she said, uh, I want to start a [00:42:00] band called Pangea just, we can have a really good breakup story. That’s my girlfriend. That’s,

[00:42:08] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:42:08] That’s actually awesome.

[00:42:09] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:42:09] that’s the kind of wit you can expect from her early in the morning. I’m talking like six, am she? Yeah. Anyway.

[00:42:19] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:42:19] That’s actually, that’s very clever. That’s really good. And like, that’s very dry. I like that a lot.

[00:42:24] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:42:24] She, uh, she works in a direct care. It’s called she, she works with developmentally challenged people and she has, uh, a specific house that she works at. And. Um, as part of, kind of COVID relief there, they take long drives and they go visit, uh, community members and they do like driveway waves and, and distance greetings.

[00:42:48] And, uh, they listen to music while they travel around and she asked me, I think it was. Two days ago, uh, to remind her, which, uh, which Taylor Swift [00:43:00] album Christina had recommended, she listened to because she was gonna make that the driving around music. So I’ll have to check back in with her and see if she listened to folklore or not.

[00:43:09] But she, she she’s trying. She really is.

[00:43:13] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:43:13] I appreciate that. Thank you, L.

[00:43:15] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:43:15] Well, okay. So we did two halves. One half I would say was, was superior to another half.

[00:43:22] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:43:22] Yeah. Um, and, uh,

[00:43:25] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:43:25] which, which one I think was better. Cause

[00:43:26] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:43:26] no, I think, I think the latter half was better. Uh, definitely. I think, I think half number two, uh, you, you, you want to talk about bunch.

[00:43:34] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:43:34] I I’ll just keep shifting it for it’s become like a total obsession for me. Uh, part of it is because I’m waiting on Fletcher for so much stuff with NBA, ultra that all of my development energy has to go somewhere. And I’m getting very close to making bunch of commercial app. Uh, so if we ever run out of things to talk about, I can always talk about what I’ve just added to bunch that [00:44:00] day.

[00:44:00] Uh, but we don’t have to get into it right now.

[00:44:03]20210304 0832 Guest : [00:44:03] I am curious, and we don’t have to super get into it right now, but I mean, you’ve been talking about this for the last couple of weeks that you’ve been thinking about making this commercial. What does that change like? Does that change from your development approach? Like I’m assuming that you would have to kind of refine the UI more.

[00:44:18] Would there have to be some onboarding? Does that change like permissions that you need for stuff like.

[00:44:22] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:44:22] yeah, so I did, as part of the current beta, I added a fancy preference panel and a whole bunch of onboarding, uh, smoothness and, uh, re we wrote a ton of the documentation. Uh, but as far as permissions go, the stuff that. It does. And the way that it works kind of makes sandboxing impossible. Uh, so we will join the ranks of things like better touch tool and Hazel that really have no chance of existing in the Mac app store.

[00:44:55] I don’t think Hazel’s in the Mac app store.

[00:44:57] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:44:57] No, it’s not,

[00:44:58] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:44:58] but it’ll be [00:45:00] in that kind of automation niche. There was a long conversation, not long, but there was a conversation on the discord channel about whether it’s niche or niche. And,

[00:45:11] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:45:11] I think it’s niche.

[00:45:13] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:45:13] uh, most people agreed with niche apparently in Webster’s dictionary, the primary pronunciation as a ch in it.

[00:45:21] Um, we were also talking about. Oh, we went through a lot of words, uh, disagreement, like words that confuse people. But niche was my question. Cause I, I like every time I say it, I feel like I’m getting it wrong. But anyways, in that automation niche, um, of apps that, that can’t be Mac app store apps, but still, uh, I hope I can gain some, some fraction of the popularity is something like Hazel.

[00:45:49]20210304 0832 Guest : [00:45:49] Yeah, no, I hope so too. I like that. Um, actually it’s funny. One of the cool, I mean, this is, this is for, for windows users, which I realize is not, uh, UN like this is the definitely the minority of [00:46:00] our audience, but, um, this was actually a cool thing that was announced at ignite this week is that, um, power automate desktop, which came out in October.

[00:46:11] But. Would cost money to do kind of anything with which is an app that basically is it’s a desktop app that runs, you know, on windows that lets you build in, you know, a lot of kind of automation tools to either create reports or, or do macros to do stuff. You know, even if it’s like Photoshop actions or, um, you know, sending emails or grabbing stuff from websites or whatever.

[00:46:32] Um, it’s a, it’s a pretty cool app. It’s actually now free, um, on windows 10. For anybody, if you want to do some of the more advanced stuff like scheduling and running stuff, kind of like headless or whatever, then it costs some money. But the, you know, the basic kind of, you know, version or whatever, um, is now going to be available to everybody for free, which is kind of cool.

[00:46:56] So if you’ve been a windows person and you, I wanted to be able to [00:47:00] do stuff like what Hazel does, uh, check that out.

[00:47:04] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:47:04] Yeah, that is cool. Yeah. I will tell you the, the last feature that I completed that’s ready for publication in Bunche is a long tail. Like, so here’s how it started. I needed as part of this smoother onboarding process, I needed a bunch to be able to pop up, uh, an HTML, uh, view of here’s what just happened.

[00:47:28] Uh, here’s how you edit the file. Click here to open preferences, et cetera. Um, And so I built that and then I was like, wouldn’t it be cool if this could, uh, also just view text files and then that became, wouldn’t it be cool if this could tail log files and then it was wouldn’t this be cool. If they could translate ANSI escape, colors into NS, attributed strings for display, and then wouldn’t it be cool if you could position, if you could tell it exact coordinates in size in which display to put the window on and then define whether it was like [00:48:00] wallpaper level.

[00:48:00] Or desktop level or a normal window or a floating window. And I added all of that. So now there’s like a, uh, a text command. You can write display system log, give it some parameters for foreground and background colors and, and make it a desktop window. And you can like pop up a visor to tell your system log when you open a bunch and then it closes with a bunch that’s the kind of quality you can expect from commercial.

[00:48:28] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:48:28] Very nice, but that’s also like a ridiculously nerdy and like amount of, uh, I kind of love it though.

[00:48:36] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:48:36] Yeah. I have a very, I have a very specific target audience in mind for this app. I gave up on trying to make it something the general public could use, because let me come on. It’s, you’re creating automation with text files, which is basically scripting and that’s a limited audience right there.

[00:48:52] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:48:52] I was going to say, it’s it’s for people who want to script, but don’t want to write Python themselves.

[00:48:58] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:48:58] Well, like, there’s a [00:49:00] lot of things that you just can’t easily do with a shell script that requires some kind of, uh, objective C Swift interface to the, to the operating system. So this basically creates almost a scripting language that makes it more direct interaction like that possible. But anyway,

[00:49:18] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:49:18] No. I mean, this is, this is basically, this would be kind of like a, a DSL, like a domain specific language, honestly.

[00:49:24] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:49:24] yeah, yeah. So anyway, uh, I, I, we both have places to get to and, and, and people to be, so thanks for, uh, thanks for getting some sleep, Christina.

[00:49:37] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:49:37] Well, thank you for, I guess, your internet going out. Although a quick question. How long was it before it came back up? Cause that had to be annoying when it just went out.

[00:49:45] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:49:45] eight, eight took I rebooted, nothing came up and then I think it was about 45 minutes. I waited, uh, I was just about to call the server per service provider and, uh, and deal with getting someone out and then it came [00:50:00] back up. So I would say a total of about, just less than an hour.

[00:50:05]20210304 0832 Guest : [00:50:05] Okay. All right. Well that makes me feel a little bit better. That’s still sucks, but I’m glad that it wasn’t like an all day thing. So, uh, sorry that your internet went out. I am sort of happy. Because now we were able to have like, uh, we’re still kind of in an off week, we were able to have like a much more normal second half of the show.

[00:50:20] So

[00:50:21] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:50:21] w we, we basically rescued the show.

[00:50:24] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:50:24] basically that, that should probably be the episode title. The show was saved.

[00:50:28]20210304 0832 Brett: [00:50:28] maybe I’ll maybe I’ll cut in the part where you are. You yelled at me. It’ll be fun.

[00:50:35] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:50:35] I’m sorry for yelling at you. I was very tired, but I’m very sorry for yelling at you. Although I didn’t yell at you. I was just like, you’re so loud.

[00:50:43] 20210304 0832 Brett: [00:50:43] You said calm down. I need you to calm down. All right. Well, uh, I’m glad, I’m glad you’re better rested. I hope you get even more sleep, Christina.

[00:50:52] 20210304 0832 Guest : [00:50:52] Thank you, Brett. Hope you get some great sleep too.