[00:00:00] **Brett:** [00:00:00] Alright, welcome to... we'll call it season two of overtired with Brett Terpstra and Christina Warren. How's it going, Christina?

**Christina:** [00:00:10] It's good ish being okay. It's great to be talking to you. It's great to finally be back with season two of overtired in general. I think that it would be disingenuous to say that the world is good. But right now, as we talk, like I'm genuinely thrilled to be talking to you again and to be doing this show again.

**Brett:** [00:00:33] if we're being honest, the world is kind of shitty, and this is a, a shining, a gem, a light in the dark for me. To finally be podcasting again with you.

**Christina:** [00:00:45] 1000% in agreement, 1000% in agreement, it's been over a year since we did one of these. For some reason, I thought that we'd recorded in October. No we'd recorded in October and then we recorded in June. And then now [00:01:00] it's August. I don't even know what month it is because a pandemic time

**Brett:** [00:01:05] It's March.

**Christina:** [00:01:07] it's honestly, in my brain, it's still is.

**Brett:** [00:01:10] week, 100 of March. yeah, June 19th. Uh, just so everyone knows there's a new home for overtired on the web. If you go to overtired pod.com, we're still, uh, the misspelled version of overtired OVR, T R D on Twitter. So we're, we're working to rebuild our audience. Uh, maybe make it even bigger. We're going to start, uh, broadcasting weekly, again, podcasting weekly again.

Uh, and the hopes of, uh, building a real show out of this once again.

**Christina:** [00:01:46] Yeah. Yeah. We're actually going to be kind of taking this seriously again, like we were in olden days and I'm super excited. I was, when you reached out to me, you were like, you want to start doing this regularly? I was like, yes, [00:02:00] God. Yes. Because again, to your point, there's. I've missed this. This has been one of the few kind of like shining beacons of light in an otherwise kind of terrible universe.

**Brett:** [00:02:12] So you had a birthday since our last episode, right?

**Christina:** [00:02:15] I did. I did. And

**Brett:** [00:02:17] have to, it's been over a year. Of course. You've had a

**Christina:** [00:02:19] over a year, so of course I've had a birthday. No, but it's, it's funny because. Um, obviously, uh, yeah, I've had a birthday. You've had a birthday, but my birthday, which is in November, I was actually in Paris. And it's so bizarre to think about because I had a few international trips.

Yeah. The beginning of this year, before the COVID stuff went into. Super hyper overdrive. In fact, I, I can't say bunch of international trips. I was supposed to, I had to still go to Singapore because I had to fly through there, but I was supposed to actually do an event there that was canceled. This was in mid, mid February.

I was supposed to be in Zurich that got canceled. Literally, as I was leaving for the airport, I was supposed to [00:03:00] be in Tel Aviv. I was supposed to be, um, some other places. So. It's weird. I was in, um, Australia in February, but I was in Johannesburg in January, but the last trip, I guess, that felt like completely normal in terms of, you know, nothing being in the least bit, even in the back of your mind, like weird was in November when I was in Paris for my birthday, I was there for work, but it happened to too.

Follow my birthday. And so, uh, it's really, it's bizarre to kind of look back on that, uh, you know, like a little more than six months later and to be like, the whole universe is completely different than it was then.

**Brett:** [00:03:45] Yeah, I have my birthday in the middle of a pandemic, so I can't imagine right now being in Paris for my birthday.

**Christina:** [00:03:55] Right. So how, what, how, how did a, well, first of all, happy birthday and [00:04:00] how did the, the, the pandemic birthday go.

**Brett:** [00:04:03] happy birthday to you too. But, uh, so this was my 42nd birthday and I have planned for years to have a hitchhikers guide themed party for my 42nd birthday.

**Christina:** [00:04:18] As one does.

**Brett:** [00:04:19] and that did not happen. Um, I had a, I had a solo-bration with my girl friend and she got me a towel and a sodastream, but, but the towel was very thoughtful.

Uh, it has, it says 42 on it and it has the Hitchhiker's thumb. Uh, so that was very sweet. It's currently, it's currently my keyboard pads so that you can't hear me typing during podcasts, but it w the way I'm looking at it is when this is. Settled down when the, when the pandemic is less, um, uh, uh, a front of mind thing, maybe I'll have [00:05:00] a, a belated 42nd birthday since it was the only party I plan to have.

I don't plan to have another party until I'm 50. Oh my God. 50. Um, but I can wait till I'm like for my 45th birthday, I'll have a 42nd birthday party.

**Christina:** [00:05:18] Yeah, no, I think that's fair. And it's interesting. I think that's what a lot of us are kind of having to do is that it feels like in a lot of ways, like 2020 is kind of like a Mulligan year.

**Brett:** [00:05:28] for sure. For sure.

**Christina:** [00:05:29] You know what I mean? And, and so I feel like even if it was like 43, 44, 45, whatever, whatever you decided to do was like, this is the 42nd birthday.

This is the celebration. Uh, and I don't know, in some ways it's kind of interesting. It puts into perspective. it really does show how subjective. Things like birth dates are, right.

Like obviously there is an anniversary of the sun rotating, you know, uh, the earth rotating around the sun or whatever. Right. So you, you can say that it has been this year, the lunar cycles [00:06:00] since that happened, but the rest of it is fairly subjective. Meaning that like what numbers and what values we ascribe to those things can be fungible.

And that's kind of, what's been interesting about this whole time is that. Like the actual milestones and the stuff itself matters less than the, like what, what the actual value is, if that makes any

**Brett:** [00:06:24] Yeah, no, we're finding out a lot of things matter less than we thought. Uh, employees or employers are finding out that having people in the office matters less than they thought. Uh, so many things that we thought were vital to American culture are less important than we thought. Some things turned out to be very important, but in general, it's a exposed a lot of, especially in the capitalist economy, it's exposed a lot of, uh, things that we had taken for granted that maybe we shouldn't have.

**Christina:** [00:06:57] Yeah, I would agree with that. [00:07:00] It's interesting because, okay. So I live in the city. And I have, you know, um, always liked living in the city I live in, in, um, Capitol Hill in Seattle, also known as the place where I wasn't in the middle of kind of the, the occupational protest zone. I was a few blocks away from where all the hardcore stuff was happening.

The advantage there was that I was very lucky. I still got mail, uh, but you know, um, like support the movement. What not. The, the white people who decided to co-opt the black lives matter movement, less. So, but anyway, putting that aside, you know, I've always lived in cities, you know, ever since college I've, I've always lived in the city and I haven't had any desires to live in the suburbs and I haven't had any desire to be anywhere other than like in the middle of everything.

And. With us not being an offices. So commute times and things [00:08:00] become more negligible. And with the advantages of cities, things like, you know, bars and restaurants and nightlife and access to places that you could go no longer being a thing, all the advantages in many parts of like living. And paying frankly, exorbitant rents to live in the city kind of disappear.

And so I haven't seriously considered this, but the first one, my life I have actually kind of looked at. Okay, what would it look like if I didn't live like in the middle of the hustle and bustle of everything, which is it, which is weird.

**Brett:** [00:08:36] it would be, you could have a podcast, Christina and the country.

**Christina:** [00:08:40] I mean, as long as I have good internet, that would honestly be like a requirement.

**Brett:** [00:08:44] is, that is, I always say like with my kind of, um, introversion and like, even when I lived in cities, I enjoyed having places to go out to eat, but I didn't, I, it didn't matter to me. [00:09:00] Um, I w I could live anywhere. You could put me in a cabin. It isolated out in the boonies. As long as I had good internet, my life would be just as rich as, as it is in any city.

But I say that as someone who's now lived in a town of 30,000 for like the last decade and I've just gotten used to it. I like this town. I don't miss cities.

**Christina:** [00:09:29] Yeah, I mean, but it is interesting. You talked about like how we realize things matter less. I am hoping that cities come back because I think that they're important. But, you know, but like for me, like, like Caitlin, you live in a town of 30,000 people, I think, uh, Seattle proper, like not counting the entire Puget sound area, which obviously gets way bigger is like 750,000 people.

And it's just, again, it just kind of changes things. It's like, what, what does your calculus look like when you don't have [00:10:00] these things that you've put this big emphasis on and that you've paid a premium for? And that you've kind of like. Surround, like you basically centered your life around, you know, things like, okay, how, how long has it taken me to get to the office?

How long, you know, like, what is the right kind of location to how close am I to everything else? And so things, different things matter, right? So it's less about like how close am I to different bars and restaurants and more, is it, am I within, am I in a location that has good delivery options? You know, is, is there a grocery store that is.

Uh, close by, like, does you know, to various food services or are there options that can deliver if those are things that are important? Like how long does it take to get to a store assuming that you have a store or how frequently can Amazon or, or who else, uh, deliver, you know, what we buy and that changes stuff a lot.

And, uh, yeah, it's, it's interesting.

**Brett:** [00:10:57] just for reference in my little town and I live [00:11:00] on the outskirts of a little town. I can get my Amazon deliveries in one to two days. I am five to 10 minutes away from every kind of store I need for a Central's. Um, I have restaurant options. I get my hello, fresh deliveries every Tuesday. Like I I'm lacking for nothing.

**Christina:** [00:11:20] That's awesome. And, and I think that that's actually remarkably true for most of those things, right? Like I think that, that is the thing with that is that, um, at least people like me are kind of learning. Yeah, these, unless you were in a place that is really disconnected, which is getting harder and harder to find, it certainly still exists, especially in some parts of rural America, but it's getting much, much harder to find thanks to just kind of the tentacles of how, you know, e-commerce and globalization and other stuff works that you don't need to be in the center of a place that you may have [00:12:00] 20 years ago.

Right.

**Brett:** [00:12:01] Yeah. I think the only real reason to live in a city is because that's where a lot of the jobs in certain industries are.

**Christina:** [00:12:08] right. And now all that changes demonstrably too, right? Like that becomes a very much a thing that is different, which is really interesting to kind of think about because, um, For instance, I'm not going to be back in the office. They claim that January 21st is the earliest school. We will be back in my gut tells me that that will probably be pushed back at least once more.

And so I could conceivably look at being out of the office for a year. And then once I do go back in, it's not kind of a guarantee that it's going to be the same thing and I worked. On a team that like every, every team at Microsoft is different, but my team was actually pretty remote friendly. You know, we had people who were kind of located all over the place, but what was different, I guess now is that people have had to, [00:13:00] um, really be remote friendly.

So it's, it's different, um, than it was even before. Right? Like, There were certain teams where it was kind of like understood, okay. We have people who are located all over the country or all over the world. And so we know how to deal with one another from different time zones and locations. And we can work together just as well using, you know, things like teams or Slack or, or whatever, as we could, anything else.

But there were other teams within the company who it's like really need that FaceTime. Like you really need to be in the office and see people. And, uh, that is, is now changing and I'm not sure if that will be a permanent change. I have a feeling that it will become a hybrid. My hope is that it becomes a hybrid.

My hope is that I don't want. The whole notion of an in person, an office for people who can benefit from it to go away. I think that that would be a mistake. I think that it's a mistake to say we should just get rid of offices altogether, because although I think that [00:14:00] works well for some individuals and it's certainly good if like you are doing your own business and like, you kind of work for yourself.

I. Don't think that, especially for really big companies, my fear is that the same way that we over-indexed on office life with, you know, like perks of Palooza where, you know, it was like, Oh, you get your laundry and you have, you know, three or four meals a day. And we do every Google style. Facebook's that like, it's literally designed.

So you never leave the office. Right? Like that's how it was. My fear is that with work from home, it'll. Re it'll over-index on the opposite way, which is basically being like, you never get to leave because your home and your workspace are one in the same and you never stop working. So I do still want there to be two.

However, I do hope that what this is proving is that a, the whole idea that, you know, even at Microsoft, we have things like. The only way that you can work on this team is if you live in Redmond or if you live in this certain location, and that seems [00:15:00] silly, right? Like I can understand for certain job titles and for certain teams, that that makes sense.

But for a lot of other teams, it really doesn't like, can there be benefits if you can see people face to face shore, but as we're learning. You know, nobody's seeing each other face to face and it could be, you know, the better part of a year before, you know, the, at least the North American employees are back in the office and any sort of way.

And so. I hope that that is kind of right. Reinforcing what people like you and I who've, you know, uh, you've obviously worked remotely, uh, much longer than me, but I've kind of gone back and forth. And, um, certainly, you know, when I, when you and I started working together, we started working together remotely.

We know that people can be very effective that way. And that there's been this bias where you have to live in a certain place and you have to be willing to make those concessions to take a job and you wind up missing out on really good people. And some people [00:16:00] look at that and they think like, Oh, you know, salaries will go down and you'll just get talent from elsewhere.

And, you know, maybe. That could be true on some levels, but I don't think so. I think more what it is is that you open your talent options up to candidates that otherwise wouldn't either, either a apply or B you wouldn't even consider just because of something that in retrospect is fairly arbitrary, like location.

**Brett:** [00:16:26] Companies like Google, uh, when this happened, they had been providing, like you said, uh, perks, a Palooza, uh, food, uh, daycare, transportation, like everything. And then when they sent people home to work, they wouldn't pay that none of those perks carried over. They wouldn't pay for people's food. They wouldn't help with the things that they had been getting for free.

So it was basically like a pretty, pretty big pay cut for a lot of employees. And that's, that's not [00:17:00] cool. Like you don't view the pandemic as a chance to save money, if you, it, as a chance to provide a different work environment. Like your hybrid idea, I think is great because there are people who have discovered very quickly.

That they're not cut out for working at home that they really want that separation, or they just really need the face to face contact. Some people do work better in an office, and I've always known that. Uh, it's just become extremely apparent. Now. Uh, I, on the other hand, I, I, with her in an office environment, like I do not do well at all.

Um, it kills me so. Having a hybrid having companies, because for a while there, it seemed like remote work was gonna be the next cool thing. And then companies started turning against it, uh, even, even AOL where, where you and I met, I started trying to move everyone into, uh, San Francisco and New York. [00:18:00] And it seems like the world was closing off to the idea of remote work.

Again. And this is, this could be a great thing.

**Christina:** [00:18:08] I agree. I agree. Like I said, I do worry about the over-indexing and to your point. Yeah. A lot of the companies, uh, like, like Google and Facebook and others that were like so heavy on perks. I mean, on the one hand I did roll my eyes and probably a subtweet or like, let's be honest, probably just like blatantly Clint called it out, you know, uh, Google employees who were, you know, complaining, Oh, I have to spend more on food now because I'm not getting free food at the office.

Like. Honestly when the, when the world situation is what it is and when the job situation is what it is, like, bring that to HR. Don't like complain about that publicly. Like it's, it's not a big deal, like be an adult, but you are right in that. Some of the benefits and the things that it is in a sense, you know, kind of a setback.

And in that way, I was kind of like happy or not happy, but I guess, uh, [00:19:00] Like it ended up being an okay thing that Microsoft has never really followed that person. Palooza thing, at least in Seattle, they've had, they had free food in San Francisco because I think that's just like the cultural norm. Like you would have to do that to be competitive, but like we had, you know, uh, subsidized food costs, but you know, you still paid for your food, like lat, you know, kitchen's closed at 2:00 PM.

Um, the whole. Thing was kind of designed more around the idea would be like, you could get home because people have families. And, and it was definitely much more of a focus on like work life balance, which I appreciate. And so I didn't have like, you know, all those amazing, you know, things like you, like you see in, in movies or whatever, um, to, to like feel a loss on, but it is definitely kind of a, um, a loss, right.

In a sense and you are right in that. Even with like, you know, where I work, like there that you get from being in the office, like you don't get working from home. It's like, okay, they are not buying me a chair. They are telling me, you can [00:20:00] use your, stay, fit credit towards a chair, but we're not going to buy you a chair.

If you need to take, you know, equipment from the office. Home temporarily. Okay. But it's not like I can, you know, call the facilities team and have, you know, a very expensive like Ergotron, you know, like arms installed or, or whatever, or like, I'm not going to be able to go in there and like take this sanding desk out of my office.

Right. So, you know, there are downsides, but yeah, to, to what you said, like, I, I do think that all in all, it can't be, be a good thing because for so long, like we moved away from this. Idea that we could use technology to facilitate remote communications and remote work, um, because people wanted to focus so much on the offices.

I it's interesting. The people I feel really bad for are people who had just signed really big leases on offices. You know, or, I mean, like it's one thing. I mean, maybe you can get out of it or, or whatever, I guess it depends on [00:21:00] the size of your company. Uh, also we work like we work with already just in a terrible place.

What this, this is basically kind of cemented, like can't think of a worst business to be in right now than something like, well, we work

**Brett:** [00:21:15] yeah. Nail in the coffin.

**Christina:** [00:21:17] completely.

**Brett:** [00:21:18] So you want to hear about my amazing gig that I just got.

**Christina:** [00:21:22] I do.

**Brett:** [00:21:23] very temporary, but it, it, it blew my mind that someone, uh, someone I've known for a while, uh, who works for a nonprofit reached out and they wanted a Jekyll website with basically all the features that I love building and spend my free time on any way.

And they had money to pay me for it. And it was. It was basically, I just switched my focus from tinkering on my own scripts to tinkering on their scripts. And it was the easiest freelance gig I've [00:22:00] ever gotten like, aye, aye. Aye. It's happened to me too many times that I take a freelance gig that I know I can do, but I'm not super interested in and then fail at it.

Like I fall behind, I, I just fail and. Uh, and that's always my concern when I take a freelance gig is with ADHD and bipolar and all of the things that make me, I feel like I'm just a better remote worker than anything else. I always worry that I'm going to fuck it up, but this time I rocked it and I think it's going to be there some continuing work.

And it's just hard to believe that. That very specific skillset that I've honed actually came in handy at some point

**Christina:** [00:22:48] That's awesome. That's awesome. And actually, what's interesting if you wanted to kind of, if like, if you find that you like doing this sort of thing, the JAMstack, which is like the, you know, um, acronymed Azure, you know, everything used to be about lamp [00:23:00] and now it's all about, uh, you know, jam like a, you know, JavaScript, uh, um, angular.

Uh, I don't remember what the M is. Um, Uh, but like that whole thing is like basically the idea of, of Jekyll or any of the other kinds of static sections. Like that is like now, like the skillset, like everybody wants that. So. You could probably carve out a really nice business for yourself if you're interested in doing that kind of thing, because everybody is like, I keep talking about this on various things I do for work.

I feel like, like we're returning to like the early two thousands. You know, um, when it was all about like static sites and it was like the big, you know, like a battle between like static or, or dynamic, you know, like, should you use Perl or should you use PHP? And it's like, the whole reason you would use Pearl would be because, you know, it would be more stable and it would serve cash things, but PHP was dynamic and you could update it more quickly and whatnot.

And it's like now, you know, Uh, w with the fact that [00:24:00] server-side JavaScript and stuff has become so much better and, and it servers in general is so much more powerful that you can basically get the best of both worlds. So somebody like you having the skill set in that, it's kind of crazy. Like, uh, my good friend, Sarah, uh, is, uh, the head of, um, I think it's engineering.

I don't remember what exactly her role is, but she's, uh, she's like a VP at and is a company that has done like massive stuff kind of in that space. So,

**Brett:** [00:24:31] Yeah. There's there's hope for me yet at the age of 42. I will say like Mac Mac, app development is still like the thing that I love as my primary income. Um, and it's, it's, it serves as passive income. Uh, and for me, that's ideal because I do have, I have my weeks where we're being on is not an option for me. [00:25:00] that's, that's horrible when you have a steady job that expects you to be on every day. And I like a lifestyle where if I have a bad week, if I, yeah. If I have three days in a row of insomnia and I'm just a wreck and can't do anything other than maybe pod. Yes. I like having the Liberty. I like knowing that my paycheck is going to stay the same, no matter what.

That's that's freedom to me. I don't need to make the six figures I used to make. I just need to be able to comfortably pay the bills and have the freedom to just fuck off once in awhile.

**Christina:** [00:25:37] Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think that, that, that's awesome. And like, that's honestly like kind of the perfect thing that, that you would want. Um, and I'm happy for you for that.

**Brett:** [00:25:49] I'm saying is I don't have ambition.

**Christina:** [00:25:52] I don't think that's true. I think it's different sort of ambition. Like I think that like, okay, like I have ambition, I'm pretty ambitious, but we have [00:26:00] different sorts of things. Like your goal is like your, you want to have like for you, why guess what you ambition to have is like to feel satisfied and to be able to kind of set your own pace and to be able to focus on the things that you love.

**Brett:** [00:26:15] Although I would like to retire someday and that at this point is not going to be an option. But then again, what I'm doing right now, I could easily do into my seventies.

**Christina:** [00:26:25] Well, that's the thing, right? Like, and, and to be totally candid with you, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if I'll be able to retire. I mean, I don't look at it that way and I'm like, I'm making more money than I've ever made in my life and I'm working harder than I've ever worked in my life, but I don't feel like it's.

Uh, uh, given that I'll be able to retire in 30 years, you know?

**Brett:** [00:26:48] yeah. Yeah. I don't think that's a given for anyone, especially if your generation you've got even worse than us Xers

**Christina:** [00:26:57] Right, right. So, [00:27:00] um, how has, uh, how's yoga been in the pandemic?

**Brett:** [00:27:04] well, turns out I much like office work. I don't mind doing yoga at home either. So. It helps that I live with a yoga instructor, but she's teaching mostly over zoom. So I stay behind the laptop and, and we we're also, we're doing videos. Uh, she, I made her a website and she, she has students that don't love zoom.

So we, we video classes and then they just pay. It's a pay what you, what you can situation, but it's, it's. It's not fully replaced her in person yoga income, but it's definitely helped. And I've been able to keep doing yoga three times a week. Just like I was sometimes four, sometimes five times a week, depending on how motivated I am.

But three times a week, it's a good number. [00:28:00] We've started doing classes on Fridays in the park, uh, because it's. Pretty safe, uh, to pandemic wise, to have, if you're outdoors six feet apart, uh, not facing each other. It w it's, it feels better, pretty safe. So we've been doing that and I videoed those as well, and we publish them for people who still don't want to make it.

Uh, the studio opened up and she is teaching reluctantly Monday classes in a studio, like with a max, the, if everyone's six feet apart, this to do it can hold a maximum of eight people. So they're smaller classes, but it's it's happening anyway. I've kept doing yoga. It's helped. I'm happy.

**Christina:** [00:28:46] that's good. I'm really glad to hear that. And it's interesting how you talk about kind of the video stuff like we've all throughout this. I think this is the most interesting thing. We've all had to become like video professionals.

**Brett:** [00:28:58] Totally. Have [00:29:00] you ever used, um, uh, uh, DaVinci resolve?

**Christina:** [00:29:04] I have, I have, um,

**Brett:** [00:29:07] so good.

**Christina:** [00:29:08] it is good. Yeah. Black magic makes it and it's, it's free. And even like the version that you pay for is like not expensive.

**Brett:** [00:29:14] it disturbs me that it's free. It's so good that I worry about it being free, but it's free with no ads because they make all their money on it. The

**Christina:** [00:29:22] Aha. I was going to say, like, I would be okay with like, I wouldn't be disturbed that it's free. Like, okay. I would say this. If they had anything approaching the market, share of an Adobe premier or a final cut pro 10. Yes. Okay. I would be like concerned with a free price because then you'd be like, Oh, they're gonna like, you know, make a decision and just like flip the switch on one day and be like, Oh, we're going to start charging thousands of dollars for this.

Right. But to your point, I mean, what they charge thousands of dollars for is all of their different interfaces and hardware. And they do charge thousands and thousands of dollars for that stuff. And people pay it cause they, it, they make fantastic cameras and [00:30:00] they make fantastic, you know, like kind of hardware things.

And so it was kind of this weird sort of reverse model where that is what funds, um, like DaVinci resolve in a weird way.

**Brett:** [00:30:11] Yeah, I, I want their keyboard. Um, I can't even remember what it's called now, but it costs thousands of dollars, like everything else, but

**Christina:** [00:30:22] Yeah. Yeah. I, um, Yeah. So I actually, I just ordered a new iMac and a partially for video stuff. So, uh, I'm going to, I can't travel now. And so, uh, we've started to do a lot of streaming stuff on Twitch and other platforms, the streaming code and streaming other presentations, and I'm doing my video stuff, sands the studio, you know, like.

With I bought a, um, like a, a DSLR, like a Sony 80, 6,400. I could have used a less expensive camera, but I got the one that I got

**Brett:** [00:30:54] more money than you've ever made in your life. So.

**Christina:** [00:30:57] Okay. Fair. But also like that, that doesn't mean that [00:31:00] you should like. You don't, I didn't need it. What I'm saying is like, I could have had like the comparable results without buying the camera that I bought.

Like, I didn't need a thousand dollar camera. Um, I would have been fine, but like a $500 camera, but, uh, and I have that with like a cam link, which is like a, an interface that'll basically take your DSLR signal from HTMI out and let you bring it in like a webcam. On your macro PCs that you can use an app like ops, which is the open broadcasting system.

And you can use that as basically like a, a switcher to, um, you know, send, uh, to composite, like, you know, Your face on top of the screen that you're sharing and other things. Right. So, you know, I'm doing like a lot more or video stuff now. And so I just got a new iMac that will be here within the next week or two.

And it's, it's pretty beefy. And, um, yeah, I. It's been interesting. Cause when I was looking at that, a lot of like the benchmarks and stuff that I'm looking at, like DaVinci resolve has been [00:32:00] one of those things and I've, I've been, I've really been a final cut person, but we, we use Adobe stuff, um, at work, like that's what the team has kind of standardized on.

Not that it matters. Like I'm editing my own stuff. Like it genuinely doesn't matter what I use, but, um, I have been looking at just cause DaVinci resolve is really good. So I've been like. Okay. Like maybe I should, maybe I should switch to that. Um,

**Brett:** [00:32:25] I haven't used final cut since the early two thousands since before pro X was a thing. And. Um, like I, I missed it. Like I did a lot of video production back then and I had gotten out of video production and as I eased back into it, my instinct as, as I quickly hit the limitations of something like a movie, um, my instinct was to get final cut, but I was kind of weighing my options because I wasn't making yoga videos.

It isn't, it doesn't pay real [00:33:00] well. Um, so I

**Christina:** [00:33:01] so final cuts and final cut. Pro 10 is like $500 or something.

**Brett:** [00:33:05] Right. So when I, I, I tweeted about, I don't remember it wasn't like a direct plea for alternatives, but someone mentioned DaVinci resolve and I thought, Oh, I'll give it a shot. Uh, that and a couple others, but DaVinci resolve, stood head and shoulders.

And I can't, I can't make a, an obvious comparison to final cut cause I haven't used it in so long. But it does everything I needed to do and has features that I don't even know how to start with color. Correction is not my bag. I like, I don't have the basic skill set to do a good job with that. But, uh, but as far as video editing, rapid cuts, it's dissolves, transition, full digital audio, workstation, uh, media clips, uh, proxied media.

Like all, everything I could need is in there. I love it.

[00:34:00] **Christina:** [00:34:00] Yeah, I mean, and it's hardware, like it really is optimized to take advantage of various stuff, not just on the PC, but on Mac as well. They do a good job with it. And it it's, it's, it's a pro app. Like it's definitely, it's especially for free and think they have like a studio version where like, if you want, if you needed to do like more advanced stuff, that is $300, most people don't need it.

And I actually just checked final cut pro 10 is also $300. So that's interesting. It's funny. But yeah, those like the, you know, the perpetual yeah. Since it's $300, whereas, you know, Adobe who is at this point, the head and shoulders leader, uh, uh, The final cut pro 10 to buckle, kind of a killed that for Apple.

Apple had been the leader in that space and they are not anymore. Haven't been for the last close to a decade, you know, but Adobe wants to charge you $50 a month, $55 a month for creative cloud. So yeah, I'm having a free tool that is hardware optimized that has all those options. Like you [00:35:00] were saying, that is, has a good interface.

That's updated regularly. I guess. It's pretty great.

**Brett:** [00:35:06] So what are you watching on TV these days? Do you have time for TV?

**Christina:** [00:35:11] I, but it's become kind of a weird thing. Like a, so I don't, I don't know about you. This has been my situation with TB. Obviously I'll watch some of the new stuff that comes out on Netflix and binge some of those series or, or whatever. And, um, historically like when new stuff comes out on HBO or whatever, like, I get really excited about that.

But because again, of the, uh, impact of, of COVID like, who knows when we'll see some of those shows again, right? Like I really liked the morning show actually on Apple TV. I thought that was a really, that was a great show. They've already said, they're going to write COVID into it, which is interesting because they'd already, I think, shot or started to shoot one episode.

They already had scripts for a lot of season two. And now that they've had to kind of readdress it face to, to, um, address COVID, which is similar to the first [00:36:00] season when they had to basically scrap almost everything and add all the me too stuff because of the Matt Lauer stuff. And, and so it's sort of interesting how that show is sort of, you know, dealing with those things, but.

Um, you know, like succession, I don't know when we're going to see that again. And that's my, one of my favorite shows. So it's this weird thing where right now, I think both because of my anxiety, Katie, around everything that's happening in the world and just, uh, also like paradox of choice. I've been just watching a bunch of stuff that I've already seen before.

If that makes any sense.

**Brett:** [00:36:37] totally me too. We decided we got, uh, we, we got through all of the fun, new Netflix shows pretty quickly. Um,

**Christina:** [00:36:48] You tiger King, do your way out. Like that was a

**Brett:** [00:36:49] I watch 15 minutes of tiger King and did not, did not want to watch it anymore. Um, that

**Christina:** [00:36:57] I mean, they're all terrible people, all of them, but [00:37:00] it was, it was some good, like, you know, Jerry Springer type of content to be totally honest.

**Brett:** [00:37:06] I never got into that either,

**Christina:** [00:37:08] Fair.

**Brett:** [00:37:09] but we decided we were going to go back and watch some old shows and we started watching. Uh, how I met your mother. Cause we, we just needed like half hour shows. Like, you know, it's almost bedtime. You don't have time for a full hour show, but you want to watch some TV.

So we were watching, uh, how I met your mother. That show is problematic. That show has so much rape culture, like embedded into its core.

**Christina:** [00:37:36] Oh, totally.

**Brett:** [00:37:37] We gave up on it. We, we started watching life in pieces instead. That's a great show.

**Christina:** [00:37:42] I haven't seen that. I'll ha

**Brett:** [00:37:44] it's a good half hour. If you just want something well-written funny. Uh, kind of throw away TV.

It's a good one.

**Christina:** [00:37:53] okay. I'll check that out.

**Brett:** [00:37:55] on Amazon prime,

**Christina:** [00:37:56] Okay. All right. Fantastic. Yeah, no, I'm

**Brett:** [00:37:58] you have.

[00:38:00] **Christina:** [00:37:59] Yeah,

**Brett:** [00:38:00] Yeah.

**Christina:** [00:38:01] I, unfortunately I have everything. No, I have a, I have, uh, the HBCU max, which is a terrible name, but actually a very good service, the Disney plus, which they are doing very good things with. I think actually I think that that's been a huge win Netflix, the Amazons.

And then, um, we haven't talked about this because, well, we might have, but it's been so long. Um, I sort of went into this thing where I kept finding deals on movies from iTunes. And so I like bought way, way, way, way, way too many movies on iTunes,

**Brett:** [00:38:40] they had, they had Donnie Darko for two 99 with all the iTunes extras. And I jumped on that.

**Christina:** [00:38:47] Yes. And, and like, there was this thing, this was now I guess, like two years ago, but they had this thing. Or they'd have like 10 movies and it was like 20 bucks and they were like good movies. Like, you know, [00:39:00] like, like, you know, a lot of the big hits from the eighties and nineties and other stuff. And it's like, Yeah, this is actually cheaper now than ripping these that I already have on blue Ray or DVD.

Like this is actually like, this is from an opportunity cost standpoint. This takes less time to just buy it again, then do this. And what's interesting is that, well, there are two interesting developments. So one. Um, uh, movies anywhere, which is a service that Disney owns, and they works with all the major studios with the exception of paramount and lion's gate and, uh, whatever entity it is that owns Miramax.

So. Paramount's a big one. You don't get any of the paramount movies. Lionsgate is smaller, but there are still some significant like films that you will lose from that. But everything else, you know, anything from Warner brothers, universal Sony is all part of this. Disney is all part of the service, meaning.

That you can link your Amazon account, your Google play account, your Comcast account. [00:40:00] If you have them, your, uh, Microsoft, uh, movies account from like Xbox or whatever, I think, uh, Fandango and voodoo. Uh, I think that those are all the major ones and you. Basically any purchase that you make on any of those services will show up in the library of the other service.

So, so if I buy a movie on iTunes, I can have that same movie available on those other services, which is pretty great. Uh, but, um, that still meant that there was like a hole and I had a few hundred movies that, you know, I bought on iTunes that were not available. On these other services and the problem there is that, you know, we, you and I we've talked for many years about like our dissatisfaction.

Like we love the Apple TV, but I don't know if you're still, if you're unsatisfied with the right now, I personally am like, I'm still using it, but like it's, it's old, it's expensive. It is not kept up remotely. And that's a problem because it's like, okay, I have all these movies that have like 631 movies.

Within iTunes. And [00:41:00] I can access a portion of them on other services, like on my TV or on a Roku or on a fire TV stick or whatever. But the rest of them, I'm kind of stuck. Well, when Apple launched the TD plus service last fall, okay. They also launched a Apple TV app for Roku and fire TV. And what that did is in addition to letting you watch their original programming, you can watch all of your other movies, too.

**Brett:** [00:41:31] wow. I didn't know that

**Christina:** [00:41:32] So I had, when I used to travel, which, you know, olden times, um, I would travel with a fire TV stick, like a fire TV stick 4k. Cause I got a great deal on one $30 for the four K version. I got it last year, still a tremendous value. It's normally I think 50 bucks, but they have them on sale fairly often. And, um, you know, 4k, a fast processor.

It's like a Chromecast. It's just, you know, a stick you just [00:42:00] plug in, um, you need, right, right. Well, um, I love it for travel because unlike an Apple TV, it works over a captive, um, internet, uh, uh, network, meaning that if you're like, if you have like hotel wifi, On Apple TV. You can't log into that. If there's like a popup where you have to enter in a username and a password, you have to use like a weird VPN.

Like the, the, the options to do that on Apple TV is you basically have to create a sub that if you want to do that, so it's a pain, right? And, and like, that's not what you want to do. Whereas with Amazon and also Roku, you can actually. Like it has like a popup screen that will let you get on those captive networks.

So I would have like this $30, really small dongle to travel with, have access to all the different services, be able to access a VPN from an app, which would then work on the device. So I could access like American services in another country [00:43:00] and also have access to literally my entire library of, of Apple TV content.

**Brett:** [00:43:06] nice. That is a, yeah, I don't travel a lot, but when I do every time, I think, Oh, I should have brought my Apple TV and then remember the trouble I've had getting onto hotel wifi with an Apple TV. Yeah, I do. I own a stick and I never think to bring that either.

**Christina:** [00:43:26] Yeah, you should. I mean, presumably we ever go to hotels again.

**Brett:** [00:43:30] Yeah, right.

**Christina:** [00:43:32] You know, because at this point, every hotel I've been in, yeah. The last two years has had an accessible HTMI port in almost all cases, unless it's been boutique hotel. And it can be a really good way of being able to access all your stuff from home.

Plus, you know, they have Plex apps and other stuff like that for the fire TV. So. It's interesting. It's interesting that you were revisiting how I met your mother. Talk about being problematic because I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. [00:44:00] And that show isn't that old, that shows like 15 years old.

**Brett:** [00:44:02] it's not that old.

**Christina:** [00:44:04] Like I'm, I'm still mad about the series finale and what they did to the ending. Like I thought that was just, it was one of the worst endings ever. And I'm still mad about that, like however many years later, but you're completely correct when you talk about like the, the, the really problematic aspects of that.

And the really funny thing is that he was like, kids, let me tell you about, you know, when I met your mom and he's like talking to them and like, Like in the 2020s, which is really funny now, too, you know, we're like, Oh my God. We're now like living in the era of when this show was supposed to take place.

Yeah.

**Brett:** [00:44:45] Yeah. Um, Even knowing how bad the ending was. I thought it would be fun to get there again. I'm also tempted to do loss again, even though I know how much I hated the ending,

**Christina:** [00:44:55] Oh yeah.

**Brett:** [00:44:55] show was so fun to

**Christina:** [00:44:57] It was so fun. It really was.

**Brett:** [00:44:59] If they [00:45:00] would put out an alternate ending, they could sell blue rays of the entire show

**Christina:** [00:45:05] Good. Good. Yeah.

**Brett:** [00:45:06] ending and

**Christina:** [00:45:07] Oh, they could. No, you're right. I mean, it's kind of like, they're bringing back like the Snyder cut of, um, uh, justice league.

**Brett:** [00:45:13] I didn't know that.

**Christina:** [00:45:15] Yeah. So, cause the fans

**Brett:** [00:45:16] Yeah.

**Christina:** [00:45:17] were all mad about the Josh Weeden thing. They like bruise the stoner that brings the Snyder cut and they're like, HBO max people were like, Oh, money.

Uh, so they're doing it. So I'm with you and like, uh, Damon Lindelof and JJ Abrams, like get on that, get on that shit. Like I would buy the hell out of that also, you know, Disney owns everything now. That would be fantastic exclusive content for Hulu or, or like if they didn't want to put it on, on Disney plus, like that would be fantastic.

Hulu content, like exclusive, like only for subscribers, you know? Cause that's what they're all pushing us towards.

**Brett:** [00:45:52] So, uh, I have been really enjoying Plex because I got a few friends and we watch each other's [00:46:00] movies and it has, I, I have watched so many good movies, but they added this new feature called watch together, I think.

**Christina:** [00:46:09] Yeah. Oh, okay. So we should share our Plex libraries with one another.

**Brett:** [00:46:14] Yeah. I, mine mine is, is, uh, a Bismal small. I, I, I rely on mostly my friends libraries,

**Christina:** [00:46:23] Huh?

**Brett:** [00:46:24] we did the watch together thing.

Me and Dave Chartier and, uh, Dan Peterson from one password and their respective partners. We all got together. We did a, uh, a gypsy meet call and then had a, a text conversation going in and, uh, And I message messages, uh, which is cool. Cause you can thread now if you have

**Christina:** [00:46:49] Oh, cool. Yeah, that's right.

**Brett:** [00:46:52] we had all that going and we watched Mr. Right together, which like three quarters of the people involved had never seen before. And that [00:47:00] movie deserves a way better than the 44% it has on rotten tomatoes. Anyway, it was a, it was a real blast. It was, it was a movie night in the age of cholera, it was, it was a lot of fun.

**Christina:** [00:47:13] That's awesome. That's awesome. Okay. So next time you do one of those, please invite me. Cause I would love to participate in that. Grantwood shoe and, and yeah, and I'll, I'll, we'll, I'll share my, uh, my library. I agree with you. Ours is pretty good. My friend Jeremiah's is like way better, but we have a, we'll have to talk about this in another episode.

Sometimes with like, we have a kind of a sonar and a radar set up on two of our servers and. Uh, which is pretty great. And so, you know, we can just kind of, you know, automatically grab, um, stuff off of, uh, you know, TV shows or movies or, or whatever, uh, for, for easy access. Um, grants has also become obsessed with like, I don't know if he got like every episode of judge Judy, these are like thousands of episodes.

I'm like, okay,

**Brett:** [00:47:59] That sounds like [00:48:00] something that sounds like something, a fan of tiger King would do.

**Christina:** [00:48:03] I mean, totally. And, and I mean, I think it's just, it's just good, like monotonous, like, you know, you don't have to think about it, like go to sleep music or whatever, but also

**Brett:** [00:48:11] to go to sleep.

**Christina:** [00:48:12] yes, 1000% and, uh, it's so, you know, but we also, we have, we've had it for years and years and years, we have one of these Silicon dust over the air, um, kind of receivers that.

You can connect and basically record over the air signals. So, you know, like, and then there they're like different algorithms and stuff you can get through where it'll even like, basically remove all the ads automatically. So, and

**Brett:** [00:48:39] had that back in 1999, I built my own DVR and it had, uh, add removal capabilities. So that's not new.

**Christina:** [00:48:49] No. I mean, no, I have, we we've been doing this a, you know, I've had a TiVo for as long as I can remember. And B we've had this Silicon dust thing [00:49:00] since I think I was still writing for download squad and the unofficial app. Weblog so honestly, it's.

**Brett:** [00:49:05] existed.

**Christina:** [00:49:07] Exactly. And those websites were still places you could visit.

Hey, at least the TVW archives exist. Like you have to go to in gadget.

**Brett:** [00:49:15] squats on there too. I think all of, all of those really

**Christina:** [00:49:19] Dallas squad. They killed it. Same with the, I think joystick they rolled in and two are they rolled into in gadget, but no, when they took download squad down, they got rid of the archives. Like, is this dead? Dead? Yeah.

**Brett:** [00:49:31] Okay. Anyway. Yeah. So your, your what's it called your over the air recorder?

**Christina:** [00:49:37] Yeah, it's like a Silicon dust thing that we pay, which they still make them like a, uh, but it's one of those things where they're supposed to be, um, like, uh, uh, Like a new version that works with cable card and one HD home run. That's what it's called. And uh, I mean, I got to give it credit. Like I got this thing genuinely like 12 or 13 years ago and [00:50:00] still works.

So there are very few products. I can say that in my tech arsenal, I can like say that about to be totally honest. It, for people who are interested in that sort of thing, incidentally, who like are interested in kind of doing like over the air, um, uh, like. The DVR stuff and want to have like a really good interface and also want to have an iOS app.

There is an app called channels. It's at get channels.com and I'm going to put this link in our equipment. Um, and, uh, people should check that out because it's, I know the developer he's really great. He used to work at GitHub. It's a really good interface and it's a really good way of basically, if you want to bring all of your live TV, To all of your devices and have it kind of sit along your other stuff.

So that's an option for people.

**Brett:** [00:50:47] Yeah. So speaking of Silicon, I got a developer transition kit, mini. And, and I obviously can't talk a lot

**Christina:** [00:50:57] obviously you can't talk a lot about it.

**Brett:** [00:50:58] but the thing that's killing [00:51:00] me is that my 90% of Homebrew formulas won't compile. So building my development environment has been a real tribulation.

**Christina:** [00:51:13] Okay, so I'm so glad we're talking about this because I've had questions about this. So everybody's been asking me, Christina, why did you just spend almost $4,000 on an Intel iMac? When Apple Silicon is around the corner? And what you just described is my exact answer. Look, I am I'm of the opinion that, uh, these will be things that will probably be fixed within 18 months.

**Brett:** [00:51:37] for sure.

**Christina:** [00:51:38] Uh, and if not sooner, but for the stuff that I do. And so primarily the stuff that I do at work right now, especially now that I'm like working from home. It's streaming things on OB OBS, which is very like memory intensive and graphics intensive. And to be totally candid off that are in windows because there'll be ups is open source and I give money every month to the Patrion of one of [00:52:00] the lead developers.

But like, you know, even though some big companies. Give them some money to fund it. Like it is, it is, you know, like a, basically a professional quality switching app that is being done, uh, on a shoestring budget. Uh, and so it's amazing that it even works on Mac the wa the way that it does, but it works better on windows.

Um, I'm also doing a lot of containers and virtual machines and, um, you know, building stuff and things like Homebrew. And so my fear has been. Cause I, I ha I had this conversation with people. I was like, okay, all of these formulas and all these tools that I use, because I'm primarily interacting with like Linux servers in the cloud are not compiled for arm 64.

Now that doesn't mean they won't be, it doesn't mean that you can't compile them, but there aren't prebuilt binaries for that yet. And, and the container situation is actually much more of a concern for mine because of the way that [00:53:00] that virtualization is going to work. And I know it can work, but it's like, there's going to have to be a certain amount of okay.

What will Linux distros have all their ducks in a row to have, you know, all the packages compiled, um, so that you can run those containers effectively. And will there be any weird difference? Cause already if you have like a raspberry PI, um, uh, you know, like a raspberry PI for sure. People know that there are some issues, even with packages on that.

And there are many, there are many orders of magnitude, more like raspberry PI devices than there are Macs period. So I, that, that is why when people, like, why did you do that? I'm like, cause I with containers and VMs and OBS, and I think it's probably going to be 18 months before we have parody there on the Mac side.

Do you think I'm like dead off on that?

**Brett:** [00:53:51] you made the right choice. It would be per someone who relies on things other than Apple's own. First party software, [00:54:00] it would be a little asinine to jump on the very first line of, uh, our Macs that are available. The getting an Intel processor to get you through until the arms have been out for at least a year.

Makes perfect sense to me.

**Christina:** [00:54:16] Okay. All right. Well that makes me feel better, but other, but other than like the home brew stuff, um, what is, what is your, I mean, from what you can say any way, was your experience better? Talk to me about it.

**Brett:** [00:54:26] Um, I will say that, uh, uh, Rosetta and a universal binary two are in excellent shape. Like in general, everything's pretty flawless. Uh, you don't notice major speed differences. You don't notice. Uh, I remember like running, uh, stuff that was compiled for Motorola chips on Intel. With the original Rosetta.

I remember that being a lot more of a speed difference than I'm seeing on the Intel versus [00:55:00] arm binaries. So in general, I'm not too worried about the transition and, and, and like you said, within, within 18 months, everything is probably going to be fixed because they're providing such great tools to developers to start now.

Preparing any developer worth their salt is going to have, uh, the they'll be ready for the transition.

**Christina:** [00:55:25] Yeah. And I mean, the, the one nice side effect kind of weirdly is for like the raspberry PI people. Uh, not that you will be able to turn a raspberry PI into a hack Antosz because that will not happen. But more that I think that for, you know, kind of the state of getting those packages updated, those binaries updated people will do it for Mac when they wouldn't do it for raspberry PI, even though there's an order of magnitude more of those.

Which is interesting. Oh, so, um, I, assuming that you've been using it for envy alts or envy ultra rather, um, and, uh, [00:56:00] what's the, what's the, what's the process? Uh, what can you tell our listeners about the process of indie ultra or the progress, I guess, or status?

**Brett:** [00:56:07] so. We were shooting for a mid August release and that's not off the table yet. It's basically ready to go. We're we are ringing our hands over how we're going to price it and whether or not we're going to go subscription.

**Christina:** [00:56:25] I was going to ask about

**Brett:** [00:56:26] We are, we are both, we're both morally opposed to the idea of a subscription, but for what we want to do and for our ability to provide.

Paid updates and or paid upgrades and the ability to provide free trials and still be available on the app store subscription is kind of the it's the path that Apple offers for that kind of business model. And so we are, we're debating with each other and ourselves over whether we want to make [00:57:00] this choice.

If we do go subscription is going to be a very affordable subscription that will come out to the same as. If you were to buy it outright and then upgrade it every year, uh, we'll make sure that you're not paying any more than that. Uh, but yeah, doing it as a subscription has the obvious benefits of recurring income for us.

Uh, eh, it would come out about the same, really the way we're talking about pricing it, but either way. It's ready to go at. The biggest thing is pricing and that end a Fletcher is an ER doctor in, in the, in a pandemic. So we're waiting to make sure that he has a week available so that we can launch and be ready for rapid bug fixes and whatnot, uh, in that first week.

**Christina:** [00:57:53] No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Um, have you talked to, uh, to Greg from, um, uh, drafts. Has hurt us at all [00:58:00] about his experiences.

**Brett:** [00:58:00] I'll be interviewing him in one and a half hours.

**Christina:** [00:58:04] Okay. Genuinely did not know that. Like our listeners should know, like Brett and I don't, if this is your first time listening to the show person listening to in a while, we don't plan these things. Like we have kind of a cursory doc, but I genuinely did not know this. So me bringing that up was generally, generally I was like, Oh, you know, Greg went through a really similar thing with, um, uh, drafts around subscription.

And I thought that it would just be like a, a good person for you to talk to. You know, in terms of that stuff, just to see his experiences, because I do agree with you. Like you can, like, I understand them world like opposition, but I also want you to get paid. And I think if you can do it in the right way where it doesn't feel exploitative and it can offer you the recurring revenue that you need and you deserve, but not be priced in such a way.

That's like gross. Then, I mean, I think you should do [00:59:00] it, um, especially like, I really do like the sketch model of if you don't renew the last version works exactly. Like I like that model a lot. I think that's actually a really fair

**Brett:** [00:59:11] feasible with the app store, but as a, as a general model, I do like that.

**Christina:** [00:59:17] yeah. For the app store. I'm not sure if you could do that or not, but presumably like, are you only going to be selling through the app store? Are you going to be selling like professional.

**Brett:** [00:59:24] we'll doing both,

**Christina:** [00:59:25] Okay, so you see and set up. Yeah. Well, in which we've, we've talked about many times before they are. I don't believe they're, they're sponsoring us right now.

Although sponsor us. If they, if, uh, they want to please, um, give us money, but genuinely like, like UN prompted from anything. Um, I'm a, I'm a huge setup fan and. I've actually talked to people about it. It's been funny. I remember. Cause I've talked to you about this, on this podcast before like asked, you've been like, has this been exploitative?

Has this been okay because I know as a user, I love it, but I've [01:00:00] always been like wondering like, is this okay from your perspective? And you were like, no, actually it's, it's been, it's been good.

**Brett:** [01:00:06] Yup.

**Christina:** [01:00:07] Still. So actually knowing that when I've seen like some of my favorite apps, join, set up what I've done, even though I've already owned them as I've uninstalled my other version.

And like, like default pull directs is a great example of that. That's an app that I use a million times a day. Better touch tool. Yeah. Um, but, but default folder X is one like that I bought and, and pay for the upgrades for like always. And when they joined setup, I was like, okay, I'm even though it's sort of a pain, I'm going to uninstall it, reinstall this new version, just so, um, you know, that dev can, can get, um, the much deserved money.

**Brett:** [01:00:48] I probably mentioned it last time this came up, but I do have a script on my blog that will go through and tell you what apps you have installed, that there are also set up versions of so that you can, [01:01:00] you can use the setup version. Instead of the one you paid for, because it's the same app with all the features unlocked and the developer gets part of your subscription.

That way that you're paying anyway.

**Christina:** [01:01:12] Yeah, you probably did mention that and I probably forgot about it, but it's one of those things where I've told you this before, even when we were taking our hiatus, the number of times that I have Googled and tried to find something that I've wound up on your blog. It's so funny, especially if anything around keyboards and automation and stuff.

And even my colleagues, like I've even seen some of them share stuff that you've done in, in, in our Slack. And I'll just, I just start laughing and they're like, what's so funny. I'm like, no, he's my friend. They're like, Oh yeah, you never been. I'm like, no, no, you don't understand like, He's my friend, like we've been podcasting together for forever.

And like we've known each other for like over a decade. Like he's my pal. Like, this is, this is great. Um, your, your blog is, is a real, uh, joy. And I'm actually, it's funny because I'm going through the process of right now [01:02:00] of archiving, my old website, which is like decrepit and terrible, but I'm. Turning it static.

And I'm going to just host it like as a static archive, uh, at like archive dot or whatever, and like rebuilding a new thing, probably using Hugo, but I might use Jekyll. Um, we'll see. Um, and I, as always been like using some of the different things that you've built for, you know, your site, like with the light and dark mode and some of that stuff, it's like inspiration.

**Brett:** [01:02:28] nice. That's that's that's I'm honored. Um, so we're at an hour. Do you have an extra 15 minutes?

**Christina:** [01:02:36] I sure do.

**Brett:** [01:02:37] Because we have two important topics we haven't covered yet.

**Christina:** [01:02:40] Yes, we do

**Brett:** [01:02:41] have the mental health corner and we have Taylor Swift

**Christina:** [01:02:45] both of crucial importance. So let's, let's do it

**Brett:** [01:02:47] what is this show without mental health and Taylor Swift?

**Christina:** [01:02:51] honestly. It is the show.

**Brett:** [01:02:52] I should probably, I should take what we're about to record and edit it in at the beginning.

So everyone knows it's still overtired, but I'm [01:03:00] probably not going to do that. So how's your mental health been? How has the pandemic affected your mental health?

**Christina:** [01:03:07] Not great to be totally honest.

**Brett:** [01:03:09] Yeah,

**Christina:** [01:03:10] Like, I would love to just like lie and be like, Oh, everything's fine. No, I've been more depressed and anxious. And just down than I've been in a really long time, I think that's true for everybody. And I, and then I feel, and again, like, I don't want to go into like a poor what was me thing, and I don't want to get into Brett's like mental health corner.

Cause I love to hear about your stuff, but I'm so fortunate that I'm employed, but that brings with it. Guilt that is, that impacts like it doesn't improve the mental health thing. You know what I mean? And look, obviously, um, my privilege is being able to even feel guilty, you know, but like, but like in grant was laid off for a while.

He's he's work, he's back working again. But, um, when it hit, [01:04:00] like he lost the contract that he was working on, that was one of the first things. Cut when they didn't really know what the situation was, was going to be kind of going forward. And so a lot of places, you know, just, just cut people. And so I I'm really lucky that I'm working and that I'm, I'm in a good position.

Um, but then you do feel like that survivor guilt and that I think is just added to the anxiety and the uncertainty and frankly, yeah, the depression also, even though I don't like the outdoors, the fact that I've been inside so much. And I'd been away from people is just a, yeah, it's not great. I mean, it's, it's, it goes in waves.

There are some weeks where it's fine. And then there's some weeks when it's just like, this is terrible, so

**Brett:** [01:04:45] the thing that I noticed was like, obviously my work situation didn't change. But the thing that I noticed was as soon as they told me I couldn't go out,

**Christina:** [01:04:55] You want it to.

**Brett:** [01:04:56] then it, then it was suddenly a burden to stay home [01:05:00] where I'd been staying home anyway. My social interaction was basically going to yoga every, every couple of days and seeing like the same people in my yoga class.

But, uh, I, yeah, I missed them, but I also, the idea that I couldn't see the rest of the world, uh, and I, I didn't, I stopped going to see my folks, uh, for breakfast every Saturday. Um, I stopped hanging out with anybody ever and. That normally wouldn't have bothered me, but the fact that I couldn't definitely it dragged on my psyche.

**Christina:** [01:05:35] Yeah. Uh, and, and I think, you know, just all the other stuff happening in the world, like in addition to having to not be able to go outside feeling, you know, kept up, like, you know, your parents aren't far from you. So you've been able to see them, I assume.

**Brett:** [01:05:48] Um, I, as a, even though it's not Minnesota's R T is still above one and it's not time to open up yet. Everyone clearly got so sick [01:06:00] of being locked down, that people are acting like it's over. So my, my brother and my sister had both come to visit, uh, from Georgia and Ohio, respectively. And I've had to be like either, either I say, no, it's not time yet.

And I don't go say hi, or I say, yeah, okay. This is, this is life. Now we have to take these. We have to make these choices. And obviously I, I quizzed them about how much have you left the house in the last two weeks? What have you been exposed to it, et cetera, et cetera. But I did make the decision to. To go say hi to hang out even six feet apart just to, just to see family.

But

**Christina:** [01:06:46] Yeah. I mean, that's honestly been the thing that I've been struggling with the most is, so my parents were both in their seventies. My dad has had, um, some, some issues with his eye where he had like some sort of like a burst blood vessel or like, um, like [01:07:00] some sort of, uh, it's I guess they call them like a stroke in his eye or whatever, and he's lost significant amount of vision and one of his eyes, which is terrible.

The rest of his health is fine, but that's been really scary, you know, and my mom and true mom fashion, like true. My mom fashion was taking all of this stuff more seriously than I was like in the middle of January. She sent me masks. Okay. Middle of January. Because I was about to go to Johannesburg and this was when the, I don't even know if there were any U S cases yet.

Uh, and so, um, they have been socially distancing. They've not been going anywhere. Like they've been, you know, following all the right procedures and they live in Georgia and Georgia is a state that has not been following things. And like the governor has done a terrible job and I could go on and on about that

**Brett:** [01:07:48] George's RT is below one. Now go figure that out,

**Christina:** [01:07:53] To me now, I just don't even trust the data. Right. Because they don't even have report to the CDC. So if I'm being totally honest, [01:08:00] um, I, uh, I w I just don't, I don't know, but anyway, but as I'm at this point where I'm like, I desperately want to see my parents, but. I can't drive to see them. Um, and even if I knew how to drive and like how to, the ability to do that, like, it would be like five or six days.

Like I'm not doing that. Uh, and, and yet I don't want to get on an airplane. You know, like the last thing I want to do is get on an airplane and expose them potentially to anything. And so that's. Right. And so that's been one of the hardest things is that, uh, you know, they're high risk, even though they're both healthy.

My mom, especially like, I don't, like, I could never live with myself if, if something happened. And so I, I really want to see my parents and that's been the thing that, and it's so weird. It's like, I I've usually only seen them once a year. Right. Like, it's not even like, things have changed, but just like you said, when you know, you can't go outside.

Just the fact that I don't have the ability to just go out and see them has [01:09:00] really fucked me up to be totally honest.

**Brett:** [01:09:02] I believe it. So I watched this channel on YouTube called how to ADHD and the girl who runs it is a, a delight. Uh, and she does really well researched. Uh, uh, bits pieces on various aspects of living with ADHD and coping with ADHD. Um, I became a patriotic supporter. You've been here. I don't do that all that often.

Um, but she posted, uh, this week, uh, something she had recorded in may about moving to Washington. Uh, the troubles, she, she went through with getting her insurance switched over to Washington's, uh, like, uh, ACA insurance and then having an impossible time getting her meds. So I'm curious. Did you have any trouble when you moved to Washington getting your ADHD [01:10:00] meds?

**Christina:** [01:10:00] Yeah. So how might a little bit, yes and no. Okay. So on the one hand, the doctor on campus is remarkably easy to get a script from. Like, I was actually able to just tell them what I'd been on before, and I've been off mine for awhile and they wrote me a script. But when I started.

**Brett:** [01:10:21] rare. Wow.

**Christina:** [01:10:22] I know, and I have a feeling it's the whole, like, it's the, it's the doctor on campus.

Um, and it's a good health center, but I also, I'm not going to like, okay, how do I say this? I don't want to say that. It's just like, you know, a, a doctor, you know, like a prescription, like farm. Like I don't want to claim that at all, but I also feel like they probably proportionally that's a place that deals with, uh, with far more people who are ADHD.

Then, like,

**Brett:** [01:10:51] and the biggest reason that it's gotten so hard to get those meds is because the organizations, uh, like the [01:11:00] hospitals and the, the boards that they report to have cracked down.

**Christina:** [01:11:04] right.

**Brett:** [01:11:05] on doctors here and there that have over prescribed. And so everyone suffers because of it in a smaller system, it's easier to, to provide the medication that, you know, someone actually needs.

**Christina:** [01:11:19] Exactly. So I think it's probably that also that was three years ago, so it could have changed, but what the issue that you have? So my doctor mails me my script every month for my Dexedrine, and then I have to bring it in. And what they're supposed to do is they are supposed to call him and verify. That it's legit, even though I do it every single month.

And I obviously can't get more than one filled even though, you know, whatever, what I have had. Some of the pharmacists who have been very nice to do for me on a couple of occasions is fill it for me without making that call, uh, which, you know, I'm sure it was not what they're supposed to do, but, um,

**Brett:** [01:11:59] room in it,

[01:12:00] **Christina:** [01:12:00] Yeah.

And so, so I haven't had that issue, but, uh, I do acknowledge that if I didn't like work at a big tech company where we have like a pretty nice doctor's facility, like on campus, where they probably see a lot of people with mental health, like where they had mental health counselors and they have a pharmacy, like there's a pharmacy, like a Walgreens pharmacy on like, In that building too.

Um, they did have to have a do go through, like, I think to find my DEXA drink for me, that was like a challenge with the cat. They had to like source it. Uh, but otherwise it's yeah. I haven't had any issues with that.

**Brett:** [01:12:36] that's, that's good to hear. I like when she was telling her story, it, it brought back so many bad memories for me of the troubles that I've been through.

**Christina:** [01:12:45] Yes.

**Brett:** [01:12:46] scared to move because. I have to find, I have to get new insurance. I have to find a new provider and probably have to go through ADHD assessment again.

And then I have to go through a [01:13:00] pre-auth and get the prescription started. It would very likely end up meaning at minimum a couple of months without meds. And that has been disastrous for me in the past.

**Christina:** [01:13:11] No. I mean, you're not wrong. I mean, honestly, this is one of the reasons why. You know, it goes to my shrink, which I think I talked about on this podcast, which was terrible and awful thing to do. And I stopped ghosting him, but one of the reasons why I kept him and he doesn't accept insurance. So that is one benefit.

Like it's terrible that I pay what I pay for his hourly rate. But at the same time, it's also easier because I don't have to worry like who my insurance is, you know? Um, and it, and it's worth it for me. And, and that's been the case as long as I've ever seen him, but it's been one of those things where. Um, I think the reason I've I've kept him even, and I have phone calls with him, um, versus seeing somebody in person which would be more convenient and which would be better is that I don't want to go through that process.

Like that scares the hell out of me having to go through [01:14:00] like a reevaluation process. And like I said, I was really lucky that when I went in for like my physical, they like wrote me a script. Now I think that the way that it was done is that if they were going to continue writing me. Scripts for Dexedrine.

I probably would have had to either show my past. They would've had to like talk to my other, my past doctor or they would have had to send me through an evaluation again. But for a limited period, they were at least able to, to get me my scripts to get started, which was amazing. And is what you should do.

Right? Like, I can understand that if you're going to switch to a new doctor, they want you to go through the process, but.

**Brett:** [01:14:36] about someone's mental health. You don't fuck with that.

**Christina:** [01:14:39] No, you don't fuck with that. And that's the thing that people don't get is that it's like, this shit is bad. Like if you go off your meds, like, and I know this because I did that and it was stupid. It was like beyond stupid. It's the worst thing that ever, ever, ever done. And, um, I just, [01:15:00] uh, I will never do that again.

And it was idiotic. And the only thing I can say is that I like that was a sign of depression and a sign of just like B being like self destructive. But the only thing I can say to anybody who's listening, who's going through any mental health things. Don't ghost your doctor. Now, if you have a bad doctor, find it, find a better one and go through that process, but don't go see your doctor.

And also if you're on like an antidepressant. Don't just go off of it. The withdrawal is legit. Like the withdrawal, my doctors told me, he was like, it's not that dissimilar from heroin. And I was working while I was in withdrawal, which I still can't believe, like, how did I even live? You know what I mean?

So,

**Brett:** [01:15:50] I can tell you it's it is dissimilar from heroin, but there is a withdrawal

I can tell you from experience having

**Christina:** [01:15:57] Okay. Which, which I appreciate knowing that I've never been on [01:16:00] an opiate. Uh, I think, uh, but, but certainly like going off of the effects or was like a significant,

**Brett:** [01:16:08] Yeah.

**Christina:** [01:16:08] it was like, yeah.

**Brett:** [01:16:11] So, um, tell me what I should think of this new Taylor Swift album.

**Christina:** [01:16:17] I mean, okay. Obviously I'm the ultimate fan girl. So she's had two albums since we last spoke. She had lover, which came out last August, and then she has a full core, which came out a couple of weeks ago. And I was actually supposed to see her in Los Angeles at lover Fest. She was only doing a handful of concerts, or it was only supposed to do a handful of concerts.

This year. I spent a lot of money to get, um, uh, floor seats for me and my friend, Catherine. We were going to see follow up boy and green day and Weezer the night before in, um, at Dodger stadium. And then at the new Sophie stadium, we were going to see Taylor Swift, the following night, obviously all that was canceled.

I'm as upset as I am that I didn't get to see that [01:17:00] concert. Uh, folklore was a pretty great constellation prize and. I have to be honest, although I came to really like reputation as an album, especially after I saw it in concert twice. And if you haven't seen it in concert, the Netflix concert is phenomenal and really captures the experience.

And I honestly, the more I think about it, like, I think that she, I think we even talked about this on the show. Like I think she. Design that album with the intention of it being like almost like a Broadway stage show of it being a public performance, rather than like a normal listening experience into a come around to liking reputation a lot.

And I liked folk. I liked lover, you know, I thought it had some good songs and was a sweet album. Folklore is. Absolutely in my top three records of purse. So it's it's and the order can vary read 1989. Folklore might be red folklore, 1989. It might be 1989 folklore, but like I could go in any of those [01:18:00] permutations, but for me it is, it is instantly one of my favorite records of hers.

And I've always loved the national and I. I like I've been a massive, massive national fan and it was actually so funny the night before she like announced the surprise album, swear to God hand to God. I went through some weird music listening rabbit hole, where I was listening to something. And then I was at some churches and there's a church's song where the lead singer, the national, um, does, uh, has like a feature and. When I heard that song, I was like, Oh, I want to listen to the national again. And so I started listening to the national and then I started listening to Taylor Swift and then like six hours later, she's like, I'm putting out this album with like the basis from the national, like I was like, okay, wait, what?

So for me, it's, it's this perfect fusion of like, One of my favorite bands and one of my favorite types of [01:19:00] music and one of my favorite songwriters. And I didn't expect, I didn't know what to expect. The sound is completely different than what I was expecting, but I fucking love it. I think it's an amazing album.

**Brett:** [01:19:11] I find that I'm not going to tell you what I think

**Christina:** [01:19:13] No, I want to know what you think. If you hate it, I'm happy to hear that.

**Brett:** [01:19:16] the only reason I've ever liked Taylor Swift is for the pop. I like jilted. I like, uh, beefing Taylor Swift, and I

**Christina:** [01:19:27] She's beefing on this album, man?

**Brett:** [01:19:29] is she? Cause I don't know. I gave it one listen and it was so grown up. Like I, it felt so mature that I kind of lost interest before I even paid attention to any of the lyrics

**Christina:** [01:19:42] Okay.

**Brett:** [01:19:43] did like the, I like to exile with, uh, yeah.

**Christina:** [01:19:47] Amazing song to me. That's the standout song on the album. I think that's like an amazing, amazing song. Um, okay. So first of all, I agree with you that it lacks the pop, right? Like you lack the hook, [01:20:00] although,

**Brett:** [01:20:00] sugar.

**Christina:** [01:20:01] although no, no sugar, although interestingly. I think that you could with different production take these songs, like, especially like there's this song called Betty, which Betty, I think we've actually released it to country radio.

Betty is a song that they could be at home on speaking out, which

**Brett:** [01:20:16] sure. And I've heard, I've heard acoustic covers of some of her truly pop stuff that have shown that those songs actually make really good, serious songs

**Christina:** [01:20:27] Right. Well,

**Brett:** [01:20:28] song writing. I cannot fault her for songwriting.

**Christina:** [01:20:31] no. Well actually, Yeah, right. Well, actually, this, this was sort of my, my, my, my thesis. This is the like inverse of 1989, because 1989, you could break down all the highly produced pop stuff and you could make the, like, the bones could be something like vocal or where it's folk for.

**Brett:** [01:20:50] as evidenced by what's his name?

**Christina:** [01:20:52] Ryan Adams. Yeah. Whereas folklore, I think that you could do the inverse where you could beef up the [01:21:00] production and change it around and make these like bonafide pop songs. Not all of them, but at least some of them, um, I will say my tiers ricochet, which is track five, um, that is more than like that you wouldn't like beefy Taylor, like she is.

She's like, um, You know, uh, she's, it's basically from the, my interpretation of it is that it is about, uh, her break from a big machine records. And she basically is talking about like, um, you know, like, um, yeah, you're listening to it yet. She she's, she's like, uh, she was like, uh, you know, it was like, she basically, we gather here, we, we line up weeping into sunlit room.

So like you're at my funeral. Um, and, and she's basically talking to me like, like you're, you're on my, like you're at my funeral. And like, I didn't have it and myself to go with grace. And so the battleships will sink beneath the waves. You had to kill me, but it killed you just the same cursing. My name, wishing I stayed.

You turned into your worst fears. Like it's, it's a [01:22:00] pretty intense song where she's just basically like you're at my funeral watching me, like, even though, um, I loved you. What did I do to deserve this? Um, and like, and if I'm dead to you, why are you at the wake Christy? And my name was shunned. I stayed looking at how my tears ricochet it's, it's a pretty intense song.

There's another one where it called. I'm a mad woman and this is a good one. This is one of her first use, uh, is a fuck on, on a song. Um, and she's like, um, you know, she's like a,

**Brett:** [01:22:32] Oh, it's right in the F I remember I heard, I heard that and they were like first four lines.

**Christina:** [01:22:36] Exactly.

**Brett:** [01:22:37] well, that's new.

**Christina:** [01:22:38] Yeah, exactly. It's like, what do you sing on your drive home? Do you see my face in the neighbor's lawn?

Does she smile or does she mouth fuck you forever is like, and then the court, like the pre-chorus is like every time you call me crazy. I get more crazy. What about that? And when you say I'm angry, I get more angry. And, and just talked me through it. There's nothing like in that woman, what a shame she [01:23:00] went mad and that one is kind of right.

Or at least I read it is this about scooter Braun who bought her masters, who she doesn't like. And like that is angry song. Like that is like every much as like a better than revenge style

**Brett:** [01:23:12] So I will wait to hear the pop covers of this album before I make any, uh, any final decisions. I mean, it is a Taylor Swift podcast. I have to, I have to

**Christina:** [01:23:24] You do have to, you do have to give it a shot. I will say also it's a very fall album, like in, it's still sort of warm out. So I have a feeling, this is one of those albums that's going to like,

**Brett:** [01:23:35] sink sink in over the winter.

**Christina:** [01:23:38] Totally. I mean, so red is my favorite album of hers. Like probably it's, it's like a toss up between bread 1989.

I think bread is her best album. Um, and I used to be seen for me if this will replace that, like from a songwriting perspective, I think it could, but red. Does have the hook, but it does have the pop. It does have the sugar, you know, it has the, we are never, ever getting back together. [01:24:00] There was a certain irony that she is now ma made the indie record a much cooler than hers, uh, herself.

But, uh, no, I, but I, I, I feel your critique, but yeah, it's interesting. Cause I think that. I would love to hear somebody rework her songs into more like traditional pop songs. Cause I think that you could the same way that her other stuff, you know, you could like tear down. I think that you could build these up.

I think it's just the production,

**Brett:** [01:24:29] fair enough. I accept your thesis

**Christina:** [01:24:31] but, but I w w

**Brett:** [01:24:33] Taylor Swift doctorate program.

**Christina:** [01:24:35] yeah, basically, but I want you to listen to it more because I want to hear your thoughts and, um, especially listen also great song, the last great American dynasty. Fucking baller song. It's about this real woman who owned the house that she, like, she owns this massive mansion in Rhode Island.

That's like bigger than anything. And it's about the woman who owned the house before her, who [01:25:00] was socialite, who like married like this, the air to standard oil and, um, She was, she was a fucking like bananas person. Like she got in trouble for like dying a neighbor's cat green. Yeah. And she like would clean the pool with champagne.

Legit Dolly made her earn, um, the fight over her state that she, she funded, um, uh, the ballet for a long time. Like the fight over her state was pretty bananas, like where people were like leaving her apartment, like basically like. Just stealing as much of her shit as they could. Her kids were all kinds of fucked up, like seriously fucked up.

Like she had like four or five husbands, like this woman, like Rebecca Harkness. Fucking baller and the song is about her. And then that the last, like a couplet is like, um, you know, Taylor, you know, talks about how she basically, you know, bought this house. Um, and, uh, you know, there was kind of a similar reaction by the [01:26:00] people in the town when, when she bought the house to this woman.

And, um, I found this New York magazine, I mean, a cover story from like 1983, when the woman died. About kind of the tragedy of Brown, her and her family and the whole thing. And then there was a book about that, that I got off of Amazon before everybody and their brother wrote like a, what the, you know, last great American dynasty song is about because the book is out of print.

So I got it for like $8 and now it is far more than $8. So a good, good going obsessive compulsive, Christina on that one. Um, but, um, yeah, that song is, is probably the closest thing to like a pop track on the album track three.

**Brett:** [01:26:43] I will do some more homework.

**Christina:** [01:26:45] All right. Yeah. Do some more homework. And we'll talk about this again. What homework do you have for me?

What should it be listening to anything or watching anything? Um, other than, um, what was the CBS show? Um,

**Brett:** [01:26:55] Life in pieces.

**Christina:** [01:26:56] life in pieces. What else should I watch or listen to?

**Brett:** [01:26:58] have you heard Kay Flay? [01:27:00] I want to hear your thoughts on Kay Flay. She's she's my current favorite artist. She's I don't know how to classify her. I guess you would say like hip hop over like EDM beats, but also she sings and falls into more of a Oh, who? I had a comparison that I forgotten now, but yeah, give it a shot.

Tell me what you think. We'll we'll compare notes in a week.

**Christina:** [01:27:28] Gotcha. I will definitely do that.

**Brett:** [01:27:32] All right. Well, that that was a great season. Two opener episode. Good to hear from you. Yeah. I look forward to, uh, to making this a weekly thing.

**Christina:** [01:27:43] Yes, I am too.

**Brett:** [01:27:45] Alright. Get some sleep.

**Christina:** [01:27:47] Thanks Brett. You get some sleep too.