404

[00:00:00] This episode is brought to you by HIMS. Stay tuned for more information.

[00:00:08] Jeff: Hello everybody, welcome to what might be, and I’m not going to explain, might be a kind of a weird episode of Overtired, but doesn’t matter, doesn’t matter. Why are you asking so many questions? Um, this is Jeff, uh, Severance Gunsel, one of your three hosts. Uh, I’m here with Christina Warren. Hi, Christina.

[00:00:25] Christina: Hello, hello.

[00:00:26] Jeff: And Brett, what are you eating in the microphone?

[00:00:28] Brett: I have a popsicle.

[00:00:31] Christina: They’re homemade, huh?

[00:00:32] Brett: Yeah.

[00:00:32] Jeff: they homemade? What’s the, what’s the, what’s the flavor?

[00:00:35] Brett: This is like lemon echinacea.

[00:00:39] Jeff: Nice.

[00:00:40] Brett: weird organic juices, that’s what I get, and I make them into popsicles, and I eat them when I’m drunk.

[00:00:47] Jeff: Oh, that’s all right. That’s got nothing to do with anything. Um, you know, I started that with what’s the flavor, which reminded me, have you ever had a long term situation where you would clearly, um, have the phone number that’s [00:01:00] being given out by a drug dealer? Um, which has happened to me. Uh, and for a glorious two years, I would get these calls and they’d be something like, here’s three of my favorites.

[00:01:10] Jeff: Okay. One was, I answer the phone. Hey, what’s the flavor? That’s it, right? The next one is, uh, Hey, you still at Taco Bell? Right? It’s looking beautiful. And then my favorite was Christmas Eve. And it was just a text that said, I see you over there, Negro.

[00:01:26] Brett: I cannot relate to this at all. What,

[00:01:29] Jeff: And I wrote back and I was like, I just, I can’t really, it’s hard for me to explain, but I know You have the wrong person.

[00:01:36] Brett: how did you end up with these numbers?

[00:01:38] Jeff: don’t know if it was a number that was just too close to a, uh, what is clearly a drug dealer’s number, because it wasn’t just that. There was a lot more of like, what’s the flavor?

[00:01:45] Jeff: Like, like a lot more checking in on Fridays, like.

[00:01:48] Christina: Somebody gave the wrong number

[00:01:49] Jeff: Somebody gave their own number out, it got passed around, you know, call this guy and ask what’s the flavor, you know, and I loved it, loved it, and, uh, and I missed those calls, I wish I could figure [00:02:00] out, I blocked everybody because you’d keep getting calls, my block list is just epic, in fact, I could probably give my block list to the Minneapolis Police Department and, uh, get some sort of reward, but I wouldn’t do that.

[00:02:10] Brett: What, what drug is it they would ask what, what’s the flavor?

[00:02:15] Jeff: I don’t know, maybe it was just like, what’s going on tonight? It’s also possible this was just a guy that, like, maybe this was a guy who made promises. And he knew he couldn’t keep them, and so he gave out the number. But it wasn’t just men, or just women, right? Like, it was a, it was an interesting mix. And it was mostly calls, and not texts, which is, I think, data.

[00:02:33] Jeff: But I don’t really know what to make of it. I just miss them. I miss my community.

[00:02:37] Brett: I have had, I’ve had a lot of drug dealers phone numbers in my life, and my

[00:02:44] Jeff: still in your phone?

[00:02:45] Brett: No. My texts to them have been mostly about, like, where you at? Uh, you coming?

[00:02:53] Jeff: You still a Taco Bell?

[00:02:54] Brett: I can’t imagine what the, what the answer to what flavor[00:03:00]

[00:03:00] Jeff: What’s the flavor? No, I mean, that’s just a thing to say, too, though. Like, what’s the

[00:03:02] Brett: is

[00:03:03] Jeff: Yeah, but like, I was, yeah, I don’t know. I was always very polite. I didn’t put anybody on, because I don’t know who’s listening. Um, you know, like, that’s all. So anyway, welcome, everybody. Here we are. Um, and, and we’re gonna, we’re gonna start with Graftitude again, aren’t we?

[00:03:22] Brett: Are we?

[00:03:23] Jeff: I thought we said that when we were coming in. I’m gonna ask Christina. Christina, we’re

[00:03:26] grAPPtitude at the top!

[00:03:26] Jeff: starting with Gratitude again.

[00:03:28] Christina: Yeah, let’s start with Graftitude, let’s do it.

[00:03:31] Brett: I have

[00:03:31] Jeff: take, and then we’ll take calls. Let’s just get right into it. I mean, I got the lights are all blinking on my phone and callers are ready.

[00:03:38] Brett: I have a very important graft.

[00:03:41] Jeff: Okay, let’s, let’s do it, man. You’re a very important man.

[00:03:44] Brett: admittedly, I’m a little drunk. If you couldn’t tell from the way I said the word admittedly, um,

[00:03:52] Jeff: Or from the point at which he told you he only eats popsicles when he’s drunk or likes to eat them when

[00:03:56] Brett: Like, there have been plenty of clues. If you’re not following along [00:04:00] at this point, I can’t help you.

[00:04:02] Jeff: I’m just going to go ahead and put this in the topic list. Just gonna,

[00:04:08] Brett: So,

[00:04:09] Jeff: it’s like when you, when you add a to do that you’ve already done, I’m just going to add this to Brett’s Brett’s drunk. That’ll be number one.

[00:04:15] Brett: this is, this is kind of a post mortem graftitude. Um, I have loved, if you ask me for the last five years, what’s your favorite? Mind mapping application. I would have told you iThoughts. Both for,

[00:04:33] Jeff: you that before you even said it.

[00:04:35] Brett: both for Mac and iOS. I have been a huge fan of iThoughts. And Craig from iThoughts has just declared he’s done.

[00:04:46] Jeff: That’s very sad.

[00:04:47] Brett: Yeah. So my gratitude is, uh, historical. Like, I have loved iThoughts so much and He’s going to maintain it for [00:05:00] as long as it works without any upkeep, which on macOS probably means two, maybe three OS

[00:05:09] Jeff: Yeah, I was going to say, what does that? Yeah.

[00:05:11] Brett: On iOS, nobody knows how long that’ll last. It could be the next, the next iOS version could kill the iOS version of iThoughts.

[00:05:23] Brett: Um, but iThoughtsX is. My favorite mind mapping application. And I will be, I will be bitterly disappointed to have to switch to another. I mean, MindNode is a great app. I love the guys from MindNode. I’ve met them. I have talked to them. They’re great people. iThoughts has always had my heart. Um, so this is actually in memoriam. A, a gratitude in memoriam because [00:06:00] I, thoughts has declared the end of to head aware and the i thoughts application.

[00:06:07] Jeff: I’m going through the Twitter feed, which is very old at this point for reasons that aren’t going to be hard for us to understand. But there’s an amazing update note from December 8th, 2021, where iThoughts has added latex support. And. It’s funny because I’ve never seen LaTeX look ugly. It definitely looks ugly in a PurpleMind map.

[00:06:30] Brett: Yeah. I can’t imagine check looking good in any kinda visual application. Sure.

[00:06:37] Christina: No, but like, but also This is why we’ll miss the app, because like, who else is going to, you know that, you know that like five people were incredibly vocal about LaTeX support, like five, like maybe three, like, but that’s, that’s it. We’re incredibly vocal and, and he like took the time to be like, okay, you know what, even though this is not going to be attractive and will not apply to [00:07:00] 99.

[00:07:00] Christina: 999997 percent of users, I’m still going to do the work and do it.

[00:07:05] Brett: he was, he was a nerd’s nerd, developer.

[00:07:08] Jeff: Is. I mean, he’s not dead. He is a NerdsNerd

[00:07:11] Brett: not. And I checked in with him. I’m like, Hey, man, you okay? And he’s like, Yeah, I just, I’m just done with the app thing. And He’s, he’s okay, but my favorite app is not. And so I feel a sense of loss. I swear, Craig is okay. Everything’s fine.

[00:07:33] Brett: We’re just losing an app over the next few years. It’ll continue working. I guarantee it’ll continue working for a few years, but, but it’s dead

[00:07:45] Jeff: this is sweet. So I’m, I’m putting this stuff in the show notes, but I’m at, I’m on the site now looking at like sort of the posts over the years. And there’s a June 2008 post that just says, started playing with iPhone development as a hobby. And that is such a beautiful, [00:08:00] uh, thing to look back on, given the history of this app, which is a

[00:08:03] Christina: It really is.

[00:08:04] Brett: even the, yeah, so I love it on Mac OS, but even on iOS, it was such a great, it was a nerds, nerds app. Like you, you had to appreciate, like you could create a mind map and output it to a word document, like natively in the app. And like, that’s just, it’s for nerds. It’s a, it’s an app for nerds and I’m going to miss it.

[00:08:34] The future of “nerd” apps

[00:08:34] Jeff: That’s amazing. Can I ask you a question as a developer? Is there, is there anything about your understanding of, of him having to shut this down that says anything at all? And for Christina, for you too, this is anything at all about the current landscape for

[00:08:48] Christina: I was gonna, I was gonna say, I, I, like, I was gonna ask the same question, or like, have some of the same thoughts. Like, what does this say about how viable this making a nerds, nerd, nerds app is?[00:09:00]

[00:09:00] Jeff: Hmm.

[00:09:01] Brett: That’s a really good question. So I make an app called Marked

[00:09:06] Christina: Mm hmm.

[00:09:06] Brett: and Marked has gone from, in the time that Gruber would talk about it, it has gone from 3, 000 a month to 500 a month. Okay. Nine, nine. 900

[00:09:25] Jeff: This, if we were in the same room, I feel like this is a good time for me to just take your wallet, actually, now that we’re talking about money.

[00:09:32] Brett: But, but my sales have gone down significantly and I can’t speak to the general, I don’t know what apps like Better Touch Tool and, uh, Hazel and you know, like these real nerd apps are doing. I don’t really know how they’re doing these days. Um, I know how my own nerdy apps are [00:10:00] doing. Um, I know that even Bunch, which I give away for free, has been down lately.

[00:10:07] Brett: So, I don’t, I honestly don’t know what the future of nerd apps is.

[00:10:16] Christina: hate saying this because people are going to get mad at me or whatever, but I think that it’s subscription, right? It’s subscription and it’s Sass, because that’s the only way you can make it work, and it isn’t like developers want to turn everything into a subscription, it’s that that’s the only way they can do it.

[00:10:32] Christina: Make something sustainable, like, because otherwise it’s, I think that, you know, the number of people who are willing to install a new app is difficult. I think the barrier to entry is harder than it has ever been before. Um, and you have so many other people who you’re competing with free on the surface, right?

[00:10:54] Christina: So like, it’s not actually free, but it’ll be free and, and then it’ll have, you know, some sort of hidden [00:11:00] payment thing. But yeah, I am. I worry the same way you

[00:11:06] Brett: Define hidden payment thing.

[00:11:08] Christina: Well, what I mean is, is like, you’ll download it, and it’ll be free, and then it’ll be like, oh, if you want to continue using this, you’ve got to pay X dollars a week or X dollars a

[00:11:16] Brett: just to be clear in the Apple ecosystem, that is the only way you can offer a

[00:11:24] Christina: I know.

[00:11:25] Brett: if you want people to be able to try your product for free,

[00:11:28] Christina: I know.

[00:11:29] Brett: you have to offer that in that purchase after a week and say, now you have to continue paying like there’s like back in the days of like shareware, you know, like we could offer.

[00:11:41] Christina: you don’t sell on the Mac App Store, right? Like, it, like,

[00:11:44] Brett: We can offer seven 14 day trials and you can choose to pay.

[00:11:49] Christina: which to be clear, I don’t think anybody, for any reason, like, other than they want to just maybe be as expansive as possible, I don’t know anybody who’s like, Oh, I have to be in the Mac App Store.

[00:11:59] Christina: If I’m not [00:12:00] in the Mac App Store, I’m dead. Like, fuck that. Like, no actual

[00:12:03] Brett: For, for a couple of years, that was true

[00:12:06] Christina: I know it’s not anymore though, but it’s 2024. It’s not 20 It’s not It’s not

[00:12:09] Brett: it is not true anymore. Exactly, exactly. And for a couple of years, it was true. If you weren’t in the Mac app store, you were, you were trying water. Now most income, like set up gives me more income than the Mac app store

[00:12:27] Christina: Oh, yeah.

[00:12:28] Brett: And,

[00:12:29] Christina: they have better discovery and they have an actual captive audience of people who actually want to use apps, whereas like the

[00:12:35] Brett: and a more, and a more curated selection

[00:12:38] Christina: well, well, that’s, that’s kind of my point. Like the discovery is better, right? Because if you open, like I’m opening up the Mac App Store right now and I’m looking at it and here’s when I click on discover, here’s what I see.

[00:12:48] Christina: I see games that we love and I’m seeing, um,

[00:12:52] Brett: Bullshit games that charge you for upgrades.

[00:12:56] Christina: And I’m seeing like, you know, I’m seeing like, uh, like you’re a cat, you know, in Cyber City [00:13:00] and Stray. And I’m like, oh yeah, because that’s really going to make up for being cyber, the fact that cyberpunk can’t be played. Like, fuck that.

[00:13:05] Christina: And then I’m like, oh, what’s to watch? I can watch Mr. and Mrs. Smith on Amazon Prime. Okay. Like, I really like, um, um, What’s His Face, um, Childish Gambino, but like, I don’t care. And then I finally see, Oh, get started with Mac Essentials. And I, I click on that. And the first three things, the first, here, here are the five, here are the five things that I’ve got listed for essential business apps, Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, PowerPoint, Outlook, PDF Expert, and Highlights, PDF Reader, and Notes.

[00:13:33] Christina: Like what the

[00:13:34] Jeff: more.

[00:13:35] Christina: And then it gets even worse when you go to must play Mac games, which this is just sad. Lies of Pea, Stray, Grid Legends, okay, Return to Monkey Island, like what year is this? Honestly. Evil Village for Mac, Resident Evil 4, these are Both old, you know, um, Disney Dreamlight Valley, like, what the fuck?

[00:13:55] Christina: SnowRunner, which is a simulation game, like, these are, you know, like, not [00:14:00] good. Um, and then for, for photos, I’ve got Lightroom, Pixelmator Pro, Affinity Photo 2, Acorn 7, Photomator. So, like, photo, you’re finally good. Then, like, you’re finally, like, scrambling down, you’re like, okay, well, then you’ve got, for managing time and tasks, you’ve got Things 3, and Fantastical, and Agenda, and

[00:14:17] Brett: Okay.

[00:14:17] Jeff: I, you know, what was awesome is I was looking at the app store and I would never know about Office.

[00:14:22] Christina: Right? That’s what I’m saying. Like, all of this stuff. This is just ridiculous.

[00:14:26] Brett: Pixelmator showed up on the list with Adobe apps at all.

[00:14:33] Jeff: Yes, but here’s the thing.

[00:14:34] Christina: me too, but it shouldn’t be that far down. Like, I shouldn’t have to scroll down through, like, 15 things.

[00:14:38] Jeff: The thing about Office, and also their thing of adding like, um, narrative stories where they talk about apps and whatever, that didn’t help, like some of them were good, but it didn’t help, right? It didn’t help this problem. They were well done, they were whatever, but you still feel like you’re, it feels like you found like a really cool shell on a really big beach, like it doesn’t feel like

[00:14:57] Brett: so my app, Mark, got featured a [00:15:00] couple of times in these app stories and, and app, like, top picks for the, like, staff picks and, and it was a boost in sales. But I look at it now, a year, two, two years later, and yeah, their top picks are occasionally indie developers that I, I truly admire and respect.

[00:15:26] Brett: Increasingly rarely so.

[00:15:29] Word vs Pages

[00:15:29] Jeff: Uh, this, the, I, I don’t mean to keep going on the Microsoft Office thing, but I was once visiting a friend in Portland in like, in like 2003, and he’s like, he’s like, Hey, you want to go? We got a new Chinese restaurant in the neighborhood. I’m like, yeah, yeah, yeah, let’s go. We walk, we walk a few blocks and it’s a P.

[00:15:43] Jeff: F. Chang’s.

[00:15:44] Christina: I was going to say, was it a P. F. Changs? I was like, hell yes.

[00:15:48] Jeff: And I love P. F.

[00:15:49] Christina: but I’m just, me too. And, and honestly, Microsoft Office, it’s, if you’re going to use an offline

[00:15:55] Jeff: Yeah,

[00:15:55] Christina: it’s the best one. Like

[00:15:57] Jeff: I use it.

[00:15:58] Christina: me too. Ain’t nobody [00:16:00] using pages. Ain’t nobody using, um, uh, you know, like numbers.

[00:16:03] Christina: Um, uh. Brett has his hand raised, but Brett, you don’t count. And honestly, you’re not using numbers if you’re doing real spreadsheets. Like, no one

[00:16:11] Brett: true.

[00:16:12] Christina: a real spreadsheet

[00:16:12] Jeff: Yeah, exactly.

[00:16:14] Christina: It makes a really great, easy chart, but like, nobody who has actual data needs would ever even come close. Like, you would

[00:16:20] Brett: Well, if I have actual data needs, I’m working on the command line. I’m working with CSV and JSON data and actually processing it. If I, if I need to do, if I need to do a,

[00:16:32] Jeff: when he’s drunk.

[00:16:33] Brett: if I need to do a mail merge, fuck,

[00:16:36] Jeff: Mail

[00:16:37] Brett: fuck numbers, um, yeah, no, I understand what you’re saying. It’s,

[00:16:42] Christina: I’m just saying like, you know, but like, but still no one’s using pages for anything. Like even, even people who use pages, like honestly, like, like no one’s using that. Um,

[00:16:53] Jeff: once in a while I get a pages file

[00:16:55] Christina: me too. And I’m like, what the

[00:16:56] Jeff: the fuck? It’s like you just sent me the British Pound. What am I [00:17:00] supposed to do with

[00:17:00] Christina: And like, and I had the same reaction and I’m like, and I literally have, you know, pages installed on every single device I own, but I’m still like, what is this bullshit?

[00:17:09] Christina: Like,

[00:17:09] Jeff: someone’s gonna come at you with the British Pound and you gotta be ready.

[00:17:12] Brett: I would, exactly. I would never, I would never send anybody a pages file. Or, or numbers file, like I would always export to DocX or export to like just CSV or, or like a compatible format, because I am fully aware that the rest of the world does not use Apple products, even and,

[00:17:36] Jeff: an idea

[00:17:37] Brett: It’s so nice,

[00:17:38] Jeff: colleagues sadly, are not textile people. And by not textile people, I mean, not even really willing to take a minute to think about why I might always say, oh, I have it in a text file. Right. I just, I just, I’m ex, I’m eccentric, which I am. I’m

[00:17:53] Christina: For them, it’s Google Docs or nothing.

[00:17:56] Jeff: Yeah. And so I think now though, I think I troll, um, better [00:18:00] than just sending a text file and I could start sending pages, files. Especially to my, to my PC friends who I do not look down on. Um, but maybe that’s a good bit to do. Like, Oh, I’m really into this thing, pages. It’s an

[00:18:11] Christina: Oh, yeah. I mean, that would be hilarious because at that point, because the thing is it like, at least like, like OpenOffice or Libre Office or whatever the fuck it’s called. Um, I always forget that it’s Libre Office now because the OpenOffice thing, there

[00:18:24] Jeff: Right, right, right,

[00:18:25] Christina: Um, but, uh, but like, those formats suck, but like, you know, you can save it in a doc or docx, it’ll be, your formatting will be fucked.

[00:18:35] Christina: And you absolutely don’t want to open a spreadsheet at all. But you can get by with it, right? Like you just definitely don’t add any comments or, or, you know, expect, um, your very carefully Um, like if you’ve got a very specifically formatted thing, don’t expect that to survive, but whatever, you can open it, but a pages file, I don’t even think Apple allows a pages viewer to exist.

[00:18:54] Christina: I don’t even think like you can get one on Windows because, and that’s Apple’s fault to be very clear. Like that’s 100 [00:19:00] percent on them. I think that they, like, I don’t understand why that is a product that ever existed to be honest. Um, because like Apple works, Claris works, there was a Windows version, so, you know, I don’t know.

[00:19:12] Christina: Like. But anyway, but also to me, I’m kind of like, I get it. You didn’t have Office on the iPad, but you know, was, was, was Pages really worth it? Like, even like 20 years ago when they

[00:19:24] Jeff: You know, what would be amazing is if there was just an Incredible Pages app on Apple Vision Pro. Just, I don’t even know what incredible would mean in that context.

[00:19:35] Christina: Oh, I actually, what’s funny, I think the only native one is Keynote.

[00:19:39] Jeff: yeah, that makes sense. I

[00:19:41] Christina: I think all the other ones literally just run in iPad mode,

[00:19:44] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s, I think that’s right. Yeah, that’s

[00:19:46] Christina: is funny.

[00:19:47] Jeff: Uh, can I ask you all, since we’re talking, since we’re talking about, um, Word documents and documents in general, I have this Problem I’ve been really trying to figure out how to rein in, which is that if I am getting, and I have [00:20:00] great relationships with all of my colleagues, okay, so I’m not, I, I, despite what I said earlier, I’m not actually trolling people on a regular basis, but I am tired of hearing about how I’m eccentric because I like text files and read CSVs sometimes in a text editor.

[00:20:12] Jeff: Fuck you, man. That’s just how you got to live. But anyway, it’s how the ancestors did it. But like, I cannot, if somebody sends me a document for review, There’s I literally cannot even take in the content until I have normalized the formatting and especially normalized whether there are periods or not at the end of bulleted list items.

[00:20:34] Style Guides make the world go round

[00:20:34] Jeff: Do you have this problem or are you able to just go ahead and read? I can’t read until I like smoothed out the sheets. I’m like, I’m not going to lay in a dirty bed.

[00:20:40] Christina: I mean, I think that I think that I can read without it, but I definitely do go through like that jarring thing, which is like, okay, what is our format here? Right? Like, are we Oxford comma people? Are we not like, are we period of end people? Are we not, are we capitalizing, you know, in headlines or not?

[00:20:54] Brett: in any given list, if there are periods at the end of [00:21:00] every list item, okay, if, if the first two list items end without periods, and then suddenly like a two sentence list item that has two periods in it, I have a problem. Like, consistency. That’s, that’s my goal.

[00:21:18] Jeff: Yeah. It reminds me, did you watch the, um, Netflix series Moe? Uh, it’s a Palestinian American dude. Uh, what’s his full name? Muhammad. I’ll get it, but he, it’s amazing. See, it’s very funny. It’s very poignant. It’s amazing. But there’s a scene where he walks into a grocery store and this woman tries to give him a sample of chocolate hummus.

[00:21:39] Jeff: And he goes, It’s fucking war crime. That’s like a little bit how I feel about what you just described.

[00:21:46] Christina: I agree with that. Um, that’s, and this is because we are, we are like newsroom people, Jeff. Like we, like we have to, I mean, like you too, to a little bit, to, to, to, um, you work with documentation and stuff, so you too, Brett, but like we all work, [00:22:00] like you have to have consistency. You have to have a style guide.

[00:22:02] Christina: There’s nothing worse than when you have the style guide and then you have people who refuse to adhere to the style guide and you’re like, what the fuck are we doing? And I don’t always agree with the style guide. Like Mashable didn’t believe in the Oxford comma, which I hated. And then we, we did a, we varied with our headline thing.

[00:22:19] Christina: I think we were capitalizing for the most part and then we switched to not. And what was hard, though, is I went to Gizmodo where we did have the Oxford comma, Praise Jesus, but then it was lowercase headlines. So,

[00:22:31] Jeff: yeah. Yeah.

[00:22:33] Christina: and so it was just like a weird muscle memory thing, like, what are you getting used to?

[00:22:37] Christina: Um, but the thing is, even though I don’t always agree with it, like, I’m like, okay, if we, you know, just be consistent, like, that’s the only thing. Like, I don’t have to agree with it, but I’ll follow it.

[00:22:47] Jeff: Totally. And also Style Guide’s like, I’m okay with the Style Guide being a living document. I’m even okay with people not using it if the way they don’t use it is totally consistent throughout the

[00:22:56] Brett: Yeah, totally. 100%. Yes.

[00:22:59] Jeff: I’m putting [00:23:00] something in the show notes, it’s Muhammad Amr, it’s Moe Amr, uh, it’s a clip of this hummus moment, it’s really incredible.

[00:23:06] Jeff: Anyway. Alright, thanks for, I mean I would love to talk about style guides and making one right now with a copy editor, fuckin love it. I have Brett’s Markdown style guide from his, uh, Oracle thing, which I bet nobody listens to, nobody uses, cause what the fuck is a style guide, I’m in a hurry!

[00:23:21] Brett: It’s true.

[00:23:21] Christina: I mean, people who do documentation definitely do.

[00:23:24] Jeff: Yes! But here’s the thing, right? Like, for me, so we do a lot of work where it’s like we send something to a client. We might send an outline to a client, right? An outline is easier to make a fuck of than a document. And, and it is, I just feel, I feel like such an old man, because I am 10 years older than anybody else in my organization.

[00:23:43] Jeff: But I’m like Is it a value or not to us that an outline that goes to a client or an email or anything is like, I remember like, was it Jay Rosen who’s, I don’t quote Jay Rosen often, but I remember when he was like, he was everywhere, like in the 2007s, eights, he [00:24:00] had a great line, which I used in the newsroom all the time, which is like, everything’s an editorial product, everything, your

[00:24:05] Christina: Oh yeah, that was

[00:24:05] Jeff: texts, your, your, your, you know, private texts, your tweets, everything.

[00:24:09] Jeff: Right. And I don’t, these kids today. Yeah. Nope, they haven’t heard of J Rosen, which is great. I mean,

[00:24:14] Christina: No, it is, well, I mean, except for him, right, like, I think that, that Jay Rosen probably wishes that, that he were still, like, the, like, he and Jeff Jarvis were, like, the go to, oh, and Ken Docter, right? It was, like, it was, like, Ken Docter, Jay Rosen, and, and Jeff Jarvis were, like, the future of media people that you would talk to.

[00:24:30] Christina: And,

[00:24:30] Jeff: future of media people that you would talk to.

[00:24:33] Christina: Yeah. Um, it was like, you know, the guy from NYU guy from, you know, SUNY and then Ken, doctor

[00:24:38] Jeff: And then throw in Clay Shirky if you’re feeling edgy.

[00:24:41] Christina: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, throw in, uh, clay Shike if you want to, and then maybe even like, mention like, um, um, the, the, uh, information wants to be like

[00:24:52] Jeff: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Neil Postman. Not

[00:24:54] Christina: Neil Postman,

[00:24:54] Jeff: Yeah, Neil Postman. Oh, these are the greatest hits. Christina, I love when this happens when we free [00:25:00] associate on the like mid to late 2000s journalism scene.

[00:25:04] Christina: I know, I know. It’s like,

[00:25:05] Jeff: It’s like sports fans. It’s like, do you remember the 2003 Cardinals?

[00:25:09] Christina: What’s so funny is, is um, you know, the Messenger shut down. And, um, which, a friend of mine worked there, and I was very sad for him. Um, but I’m gonna be completely honest. Like, I’m not, I’m not gonna in any way judge anyone who took their first staff job, or like, took a job there, or whatnot.

[00:25:27] Christina: For the most part, for going to work there. I am going to judge people who like, left. Relatively stable places to go work there, because is what was so funny to me, the, the ideas and, um, um, speaking of, um, like, um, journalism type of, you know, talking head types, uh, Joshua Benton, who, who created the, the Nieman Lab at Harvard, um, he, um, um, um,

[00:25:52] Jeff: no, I’m thinking I’m actually thinking of the Civic Media Lab at MIT. Sorry,

[00:25:55] Christina: Okay, yeah, but no, but he created, he created the Neiman Lab at Harvard, um, [00:26:00] he like had been on a tear for like the last year about how dumb and backwards the messenger was, which we were all saying, we were like, this idea is like straight out of 2011, like this is backwards, but what it reminded me of was in 2010, Michael Wolff was hired to remake Ad Age.

[00:26:19] Christina: Like the, the Prometheus and Apollo Global, I don’t know if Apollo was actually involved, but Prometheus, uh, like some private equity fucks, like bought out the, the media group that owned the, the Hollywood Reporter, Billboard, and Ad Age. And, um, or Adweek, sorry, not Adage, Adweek. And, um, they hired Janice Minn to do, um, The Hollywood Reporter, and she actually did a really good job.

[00:26:41] Christina: Like it, it didn’t save it per se, but they definitely were able to resell that for a much higher multiple than they could have. And she made it into a very good magazine because she’s fucking awesome. And they hired Michael Wolff to take on Adweek. And. A friend of mine who I worked with, she had some feelers out to go get a job there.

[00:26:57] Christina: And then she mentioned me. She was like, Oh, we should definitely hire [00:27:00] my friend. And so, um, the girl who was going to run it, I guess, kind of under him, like his managing person, like she talked to me and she was like selling me on it. And then I get on a call with Michael Wolf and it’s basically a job offer.

[00:27:11] Christina: And I’m struck by a couple of things. First, Michael Wolf clearly has no idea who I am. No idea why he’s even talking to me. He’s just. Trying to hire away people, and I worked at a prominent publication at the time. And, and so, but he has no fucking clue who I am or why he’s talking to me. And the second thing was, is he was just telling me how, like, Oh, well, Mashable’s gonna be dead.

[00:27:31] Christina: TechCrunch is gonna be dead. All these things are gonna be dead. We’re gonna throw so much at this. Like, you, you, you can just forget about it. You definitely want to come here because we’re, we’re going to basically annihilate you. And I’m, I’m like 25. And I’m like, okay, I don’t think you know what you’re doing, because this is insane and this isn’t how media works right now, and this is a ridiculous idea, this is like late 2010.

[00:27:56] Christina: And so I, um, so I guess I was 24, or 26, [00:28:00] and so I, um, I basically was like, I, I, I opted not to continue with the process. I was like, this is weird. Also it was weird to me that they wanted to offer me a job without even like seeing my writing samples, like they were just like, really? The whole thing just felt weird.

[00:28:14] Christina: off. And so I was like, I’m not doing this. And, and Lauren also opted to not do it. And we were very grateful because less than a year later, Michael Wolff was, um, kicked out and the whole thing was a disaster. Well, I went to look back on that and I was like, man, why does the messenger remind me so much of this? I went back to look and the guy who led the investment and who hired Michael Wolff to, to do, um, Adweek was Jimmy Finkelstein,

[00:28:39] Jeff: Oh,

[00:28:39] Christina: the guy who then did the messenger. So,

[00:28:42] Jeff: don’t talk to me. Talk to Jimmy Finkelstein,

[00:28:45] Christina: so like

[00:28:46] Jeff: Jimmy Tentos. Sorry.

[00:28:48] Christina: No, no, but, but like the funny thing is, is I was like, okay, this, this concept, which I should have given some precursor, there was this attempt at making a, like, mass general news site called The Messenger, they blew [00:29:00] through 50 million dollars in under a year, they hired like 200 and something journalists, they had originally said they were going to hire 550, they didn’t hire that many, they They, um, basically, they hired Neitz and Zimmerman, which again, talking about like, like 2010s, like throwbacks, like wait, wait, wait to pretend it’s still 20, 2012, you guys, um, to be like their, their viral person, even though social traffic doesn’t exist anymore.

[00:29:23] Christina: Um, and, um, the whole thing was just like, A throwback to an earlier era, and of course it collapsed and failed, and they ran out of money on January 31st, fired people without any severance, except for people in California who they had to pay vacation time to. And um, the whole thing is just a disaster and embarrassing.

[00:29:40] Christina: But, the thing is that struck me as I was like, Okay. Everybody was like, including myself, was like, oh, this is such a 2010s idea, early 2010s idea. And it, but it also reminded me, and then I found out why, because it was the same people, of, of the, the, you know, ad week, um, attempt. Except even in 2010, [00:30:00] like, my, like, very young, very green ass was like, Oh, this is a bad idea even now.

[00:30:06] Christina: Like, so it’s a throwback to a bad idea from back then. Like, at least the daily, I know why, I know why people took that job and like, it failed, but at least it had paying users. And like, we all thought the iPad was going to be a thing. Like, I understand why people took a job at the

[00:30:22] Jeff: Yep,

[00:30:23] Christina: I’m going to be honest.

[00:30:24] Christina: I don’t understand why anybody took a job at the messenger

[00:30:27] Jeff: it’s pretty crazy. It’s pretty crazy. And it does, it feels so old. Like, I remember when, um, when Al Jazeera America started, like, I, I, um, well, first of all, like, this goes back to, harkens back to a really amazing time, which is that there was this guy, Mark Coatney, who was, who, who originally was working at Newsweek and started a Tumblr.

[00:30:46] Jeff: It was like one of the first Tumblers that are like a news organization. It was around the same time that I started the Utney Reader Tumblr, right? Like when I was working there. And he and I got to know each other online because as he said, it’s like you’re two bomber pilots like flying over the land and you just kind of look and [00:31:00] nod at each other because the only, I think the only other Tumblr for a media organization at that point was like Good Morning America.

[00:31:05] Jeff: Um, and, and so

[00:31:07] Christina: Mashable, but yeah, but

[00:31:08] Jeff: You’re Mashable. Yes, I’m sorry, Mashable. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, well, Utni wasn’t mainstream. But yeah, I, for some reason, I kind of like, Mashable felt like Mashable on Tumblr, right? It wasn’t like, oh, look, Mashable’s on Tumblr.

[00:31:19] Christina: Oh, that’s exactly what it was. Cause I ran that account for a long time

[00:31:22] Jeff: let’s see now, it should have been you and me and Cody in bomber planes, like, looking over the thing, right?

[00:31:28] Jeff: Cause like, that was really fun to run a Tumblr from a media organization at that point, because you got out of the CMS. Like, although actually, they based, like, Newsweek ended up, was it New York? Was it the New York Review of Books? Somebody ended up basing a huge chunk of their CMS, essentially inside of Tumblr.

[00:31:44] Jeff: I don’t remember how that worked if it’s true, we won’t talk about that. So anyway, Mark Cote and he ends up getting a job as like the media director at Tumblr makes sense. And then he gets hired on as like vice vice president of something for Al Jazeera America, when Al Jazeera decided they wanted to have an American based thing [00:32:00] and they were doing that same kind of like the future of media is cocaine.

[00:32:04] Jeff: It’s like, you know, the past of media was also cocaine. So we just got to figure out how to work in the, I was. I was in phone calls about a job, I had to move to New York to be an editor, I have never dealt with more jacked up, like completely unreliable, total newsroom junkie people in my life. And I was like, I had like two phone conversations and I was just like, I said to my wife, I’m like, we’re definitely not going to New York. This is not going to go well. I loved that. I wrote for them just once and I loved the experience. But like, that was another one of those things where like, that’s what makes the messenger feel like it was 2000.

[00:32:41] Christina: Oh yeah, 1000%. Well, they also, they, they spent 8 million on real estate. They had offices in Palm Beach, um, in Fideye

[00:32:49] Jeff: oh, so, so Finkelstein was money laundering.

[00:32:52] Christina: Oh, yeah. I mean, clearly this whole thing, it was, it was like, and like, this guy wrote this thing for New York mag about what it was like. [00:33:00] He was like, yeah, we had this office like 42, 000 square feet in Fidei and the desks were empty almost all the time.

[00:33:05] Christina: And I’m like, what are you doing? Um, Defector, um, which is a, uh, like a reader sponsored publication, which is great from the people behind Deadspin. They wrote like a thing about basically like how many, you know, newsrooms like theirs could have been funded by, you know, the 50 million. Um, and like the defectors like, like annual budget is around three million dollars or whatever and, and like they’re able to increase it, you know, little by little, but like, you know, and, and they’re paying salaries and they’re being able to pay some dividends, so to speak, but like, it’s certainly not, you know, drowning in money, but it’s a great publication and they pay their freelancers really well and, um, uh, yeah, it is like, yeah.

[00:33:45] Christina: I’m like, okay, you probably wouldn’t be able to have, you know, 20 defectors. I don’t think that that many exist, but it is really telling. It’s like, wow, you could have used the money in so many other ways.

[00:33:56] Jeff: yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that’s [00:34:00] absolutely the case.

[00:34:01] Brett: weirdly, we’re still on my pick for Graftitude. I don’t, I don’t, I have no idea where we’re at. I am, I’m not, I’m not conscious enough.

[00:34:13] Jeff: I’ll tell you, remember, we’ll handle it. So I do want to

[00:34:16] Brett: over, take

[00:34:17] Jeff: want to close out the messenger conversation by saying, if you go to their URL, it is just the name, the messenger and an email info at the messenger. And I would love to know the payment arrangement that has this URL staying alive.

[00:34:31] Jeff: Is it like a 20 year subscription through hover?

[00:34:33] Christina: That’s, that’s all I can figure. Cause, cause they literally shut off. They literally shut it off the day that they announced. And I was like, oh, they’re not paying a second more of AWS stuff. So like, yeah. Um, okay. Let me, let me DNS this. Let me see who the DNS is. Cause I wonder if this is like being hosted on Netlify or Vercel

[00:34:48] Jeff: I know, right? Right?

[00:34:49] Christina: Pages. Like, this is on some sort of cheap ass. Yeah.

[00:34:53] Jeff: I wish that they would just have a little blinking under construction sign. [00:35:00] Or just like a gravestone blinking, maybe? Something like that. You could have fun with it. Is what

[00:35:05] Christina: You really could, but, but that would, you know, I think that there’s probably like a part of them were like, Oh, we can sell the assets you mean? And it’s like, it’s, it’s like wolf. com.

[00:35:12] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:35:13] Christina: um, the opposite of office. And when, when, um, like when you’re selling the URL, like, and that’s it.

[00:35:19] Jeff: Also, can I

[00:35:19] Christina: okay, no, okay. So this is going to, so the DNS is still hosted, um, on AWS.

[00:35:25] Christina: Um, and so I bet this is just. And AWS,

[00:35:29] Jeff: went way down. Um, I, here’s the, the other thing about The Messenger, just before we close, is that if you were like, I just got a job at this new news organization called The Messenger, I’d be like, you’re Jehovah’s Witness, or what, you’re Nation of Islam, like, what’s going on here? It does not sound, it sounds like a religious paper, or like a cult paper.

[00:35:45] Jeff: It’s the worst name.

[00:35:47] Christina: They weren’t even in like the SEO listing, like it took them months to get into SEO. Like they didn’t even launch that way. Like, like, like, um, um, uh, um, like again, Neiman did this thing, like Josh Benton, like did this thing where he was like, these are the [00:36:00] things that rank higher than the messenger on Google for the messenger on Google.

[00:36:03] Christina: It was, it was art. Um, all right. That’s enough of that.

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[00:37:36] Christina: All right. Um, so, so I thought

[00:37:38] Jeff: Yours is fun. Yours is a fun one.

[00:37:41] Speaking of throwbacks

[00:37:41] Christina: Yeah, okay, so kind of speaking of throwback software a little bit, do you guys remember an app called Cover Sutra?

[00:37:47] Brett: totally.

[00:37:49] Jeff: I still remember that name. Jesus. It’s

[00:37:52] Christina: it was like basically like a, uh, uh, uh, like a, an iTunes controller where you’d see like the cover art of your, um, you know, what was [00:38:00] playing back and it was really beautiful and it was nicer than like the mini mode in iTunes or whatever. Um, and, um, the people who made it were great as well. Part of the Delicious Generation, great app.

[00:38:11] Christina: This one I actually discovered while we were recording our last episode, um, and I, I was kind of playing with it while we were recording with Brian, uh, and, because Jason Snell wrote about this, um, on his blog. It’s called Sleeves, um, and, or, or, or Sleeve rather, and, and Sleeve 2 is, is the current version.

[00:38:30] Christina: Um, it’s 6 if you buy it directly. I think it’s 7 in the Mac App Store, 8 in the Mac App Store. I bought it directly because I always worry about the App Store limitations, even if they don’t exist. Um, and, um, basically it’s, um, it’s, it’s on your desktop and it’ll like, let you control music from Apple music, Spotify, as well as Doppler.

[00:38:50] Christina: Um, it has, um, Last. fm scrabbling support. It has a bunch of different themes and you can also customize how it looks. Um, and you can even like [00:39:00] share your stylings and then, um. It does integrate with, like, the Spotify Developer API, if you want to have loving tracks, like, enabled on Spotify, so you can love a track when it’s playing back on, um, your, uh, your thing.

[00:39:15] Christina: But, um, it also supports, um, like, iCloud Sync, so, like, for instance, themes that I’ve created. And, um, on my Mac, and I actually just figured this out, on my iMac will show up on my, um, laptop. Um, so when you, when you customize, like, what the, how, how the things look, and you can really get granular about, like, how the layout works, like what it looks like, how it sits and is positioned on your desktop, if it’s going to be over or under things, you can create, you know, um, uh, uh, system shortcuts and, and other stuff.

[00:39:47] Christina: Um, I really, really like it. And so Yeah, it’s really pretty, and so this is going to be a thing that not a lot of people are going to need to use. But, I mean, honestly, like, you’re probably fine with just, [00:40:00] you know, the built in thing. And I know that some people prefer having menu bar based controls, I get it.

[00:40:06] Christina: But I often have, like, a second monitor, which is not being actively used for much. And so having this kind of positioned in, like, a lower corner quadrant, it’s a, it’s a nice, it’s a nice little app, especially for, for six bucks.

[00:40:18] Brett: Yeah, I keep, I keep all of my window positioning, I keep space available at the top and the bottom of the screen for exactly the kind of thing that this provides. Uh, do you guys remember an app called, um, Simplify?

[00:40:38] Christina: Yeah,

[00:40:41] Brett: You could create, you could create what were called jackets for simplify using CSS and HTML. And

[00:40:49] Christina: I loved, I loved Simplify. Yes,

[00:40:50] Brett: I, I created, I created a jacket called Sideshow that gave you like a full screen menu bar at the left side of your [00:41:00] screen. That would like show like progress and, and track name, album name, all of that. And I love that app.

[00:41:08] Brett: It has gone. Unupdated for years now.

[00:41:13] Christina: Yeah, it’s not even available in the Mac App Store anymore, like the website still exists, it says 2012 to 2021. And I think you can probably still, yeah, if you click on the download link, like it’ll go to open app store and it’s not even available anymore, but that was a great app.

[00:41:27] Brett: it’s dead now, but I’m really into Sleeve. Um, that is, I, I hope they open up, I hope they open up an API that I can develop for.

[00:41:39] Christina: Yeah, you should reach out to them.

[00:41:40] Brett: I will 100% make jackets for

[00:41:43] Jeff: pull those jackets out of the closet.

[00:41:46] Brett: yeah, yeah,

[00:41:46] Christina: Yeah, no, no, you should totally do it. Um, and, and I think, uh, you should reach out to them because,

[00:41:51] Jeff: sober up and reach out to him.

[00:41:53] Christina: yeah, no, I was gonna say, well, they’re, well, they’re, they’re.

[00:41:56] Brett: You can’t tell me what to do. [00:42:00] Sorry.

[00:42:01] Christina: they’re a two person team, but, like, that is actually probably the perfect size for,

[00:42:08] Jeff: Yeah, for that kind of

[00:42:09] Christina: who would, yeah, exactly, people who would be like, be able to be like, yeah,

[00:42:12] Jeff: It has to go through zero meetings. Yeah, that’s amazing. I love it. That looks super cool. Um, okay. Should I do mine? I have two because one, well, one is, it’s fine that one is tedious because that’s how we love apps, but I just wanted to do two. So one’s a, one’s a Mac app and one’s a just iOS app.

[00:42:36] Jeff: Maybe it’s on the Mac. I don’t use it there, but I was using, I’ve been using TablePlus for, for SQL tables for like ever and. It is, it’s great. And then they added a very cool feature, which is like this little AI column. So you can just be like, I want to do this. Give me the, it’s just the great for being a lazy SQL programmer person.

[00:42:54] Jeff: Um, which I am, but I’m normally I’d be looking stuff up. Yeah, it’s great. But. It’s [00:43:00] that just got that function, like whatever, it seemed to have gotten funky. I was getting a lot of weird crashes in the whole thing, whatever. And now table plus people, if that’s fixed, I’m sorry. I don’t mean to tell anybody not to do it, but I did have to go find something else cause I was on deadline.

[00:43:14] Jeff: And so I ended up at Navicat, Navicat, Navicat for SQLite and I love it. I love it so much. And I think that it has. It’s, this is kind of strange, but like, I do more work in my relational databases now, and part of it is I need to be, cause I’ve got a project that has this like super complex relational database, but like, it’s beautiful.

[00:43:38] Jeff: It’s easy to use. It’s got some wonderful features. It’s got a really cool like charting feature. If you want to just make some quick charts, um, it’s, it’s just like, oh, it’s so good. And I don’t know what to say. Like if you. If you are looking for a SQL database app or a SQLite database app, whatever, like you already know what you want.

[00:43:55] Jeff: And I just, I just want to put that out there as something that if you’ve been using something else forever, like [00:44:00] TablePlus, which I love, just play with this a little bit. Cause I was really impressed and I was glad that I had a reason to try something else. Cause literally I’ve been using TablePlus since I was in a newsroom, which is at this point.

[00:44:13] Jeff: 2012 was the last newsroom I was in. And so, um, so anyway, that was fun. And the other one is like Casey lists of ATP of, you know, accidental tech podcasts and whatever, lots of things, I guess, uh, in life, but has this app call sheet, which because it was called call sheet, I just never knew. What the hell is this thing?

[00:44:31] Jeff: It didn’t like hit me. And then he was talking about, I’ve started listening to ATP again. I go through seasons, uh, with ATP and when I’m going through a season now, I will admit that it was this thing that happens to me where I just want more Syracuse, uh, um, and, and Casey was talking about call sheet.

[00:44:47] Jeff: I’m like, I gotta check this app out. It’s an amazing app for just like, you know, how. Fucking maddening it is to look at IMDb, um, when you want to know something. And if you’re not watching Prime, you don’t have that thing where you can stop and look at the actors. This is just like [00:45:00] a beautiful app that is so it’s, it’s well done.

[00:45:02] Jeff: It’s pretty, it does the things you want it to do. It’s quick and it allows you to just be like, I’m watching this thing. Show me who’s in it. And now show me who else was in it. And it is. Exactly what you need. It’s crisp. It’s clear. The information is right there. And if you want to go to IMDb, you can get there from there, but I just think he, he’s done an amazing job

[00:45:21] Christina: He has, I really, really like it. Like I bought it like as soon as it came out and I’m a huge fan because the thing is the IMDb app used to be really good and it’s gotten worse and worse. And I used to pay for IMDb Pro and I don’t anymore. Um, cause I don’t, I don’t need. So I don’t need it for the email access, which is why I used to pay for it.

[00:45:41] Christina: And, um, but the IODB app is just like kind of garbage now. And, and the website, um, like, um, uh, John August used to make a, a Safari extension that would like re Like, do, like, would fix, like, IMDB, um, but, but that hasn’t been updated in a long time, um, years at this point, but, but CallSheet is, [00:46:00] is great. Um, I will, the one thing I will note, because I think that it’s great, I think that it’s, um, a really good app and, and it is great for 99% I will say there is some information that isn’t exact and isn’t always going to be as up to date because of the source that they’re using is, is like, just not as good as IMDB.

[00:46:18] Christina: But for the vast majority of things, like it is really, really solid. Um, and, um, like I, I like how, um, Casey’s designed it. Like you said, like you have an easy way of going to Wikipedia or to, you know, the website for the project or

[00:46:33] Jeff: You can choose what you’re, you can have a quick link from your results and you can choose what that is. And one of them is to go to the technical information, like what camera was used in this movie? Like, it’s, it’s so awesome. So awesome. And I do understand why it’s called Call Sheet. Now that I know what the app is, but it just didn’t, both that and the icon didn’t really grab me ever.

[00:46:50] Jeff: And so I was like, what is this thing? Anyway, I love it. And I also want to say, well, one thing about IMDB, which is that, do you remember when Boing Boing went to shit? Like all of a sudden it was just [00:47:00] spammy ass ads. Everywhere it was just butts and pimples like thrust in your face, um, which is what I think I wish high school was like, but it wasn’t for me.

[00:47:09] Jeff: Um, anyway, uh, like that’s what IMDB is. And like, I still remember I used to go to Boing Boing every day. I’m doing this, Christina, because we, we opened the hatch on this one. I used to go there every fucking day. I used to love it. And then just like overnight, it just became trash. The content wasn’t all that different, but the ads were just like in the interstitials and it was just like, it’s a nightmare.

[00:47:31] Jeff: Anyway, just to say that about Boeing buying, sorry, Boeing buying. I know some of you people, you were great people, great thinkers, great writers, but I don’t know, you needed money. I guess, I guess you needed money.

[00:47:42] Christina: I mean, it’s weird too because like, um, you know, two of the, the co founders are, are gone. So,

[00:47:49] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:47:51] Christina: like, like Carl is still there and, and, and Rob might as well be a co founder because he’s been there for forever. But like, you know, yeah.

[00:47:58] Jeff: Yeah. That’s a bummer. And then the [00:48:00] last thing I’ll say, which is about Casey List, which is that, in coming back to Accidental Tech Podcast, which of course, the very first fucking episode I’m hearing about Phish from Marco, um, which I think is a great bet. I think the fact that you can’t listen to an episode, it feels like, without Marco either talking about Phish or someone giving a shit about Phish. The P H I S H, that’s what I’m talking about, the band, is kind of delightful because I don’t think we should change in many ways. But, uh, can you imagine, to listeners of the, of the podcast, I want to just, I don’t often appreciate Casey’s role enough, and I did for the first time in a way I never had, which is like, can you imagine trying to find your place between John Siracusa and Marco Arman?

[00:48:41] Jeff: Can you imagine trying to figure out Where your two feet are between those two dudes, who I love. But anyway, I just wanted to share that and, and, and give some appreciation. Also call sheets, one of those apps, and actually while we’re on the topic of all three of these guys, uh, Overcast is one of [00:49:00] these apps too, where I just would love to have a line into all the different decisions you had to make along the way to make the thing, what it is, because.

[00:49:09] Jeff: Both with podcasts, which Overcast, of course, is a podcast app, and with call sheet, trying to get this information the way you would want it. You just have to make so many calls, like any app, but I bet they were all interesting. I bet every one of those calls was interesting that you had to make. So anyway, thanks for, thanks for the good work, everybody.

[00:49:25] The Grammys. You knew it was coming.

[00:49:25] Jeff: There we are, Graftitude. So here’s the deal. When we start with Mental Health Corner, we’ll take Mental Health Corner to the end. When we start with Graftitude, I think it’s probably very easy to take Graftitude to the end. But we do have a little time. We do need to talk about the Grammys. And I want to, Christina, you are always the driver of this.

[00:49:41] Jeff: I, I am always a distant observer. I cannot watch the show. I’ve never been able to do it. I, and I’m not being, I, my wife and I talk about this because she, she likes. It’s like, I swear to God I’m not being a snob, but it does hurt my heart to watch a thing that I love, music, [00:50:00] get compressed into this very gross for me thing.

[00:50:06] Jeff: Now,

[00:50:06] Christina: Oh, yeah.

[00:50:07] Jeff: want to be clear, and I know you, I mean, we all see that, right? Like I also love the performances. And so even though I can’t sit through one, I’m on TikTok. There’s Tracy Chapman. You know, there’s Killer Mike accepting his awards. There’s Boy Genius being fucking adorable running for their awards.

[00:50:23] Jeff: Like I love it. And so Christina, I always like hearing from you on this stuff. You originally told us we had to talk about Miley Cyrus.

[00:50:30] Christina: Well, just because we love Miley and Miley run one record of the year, um, for, for flowers and, um, best, uh, um, best pop solo, um, for flowers record of the year, I definitely think it was deserved. Um, and, uh, I was a little bit surprised that it got it. Cause I was like, Oh, maybe they’ll give it to what was I made for whatever that, that one song of the year, which.

[00:50:51] Christina: was completely inevitable because they love, love, love Billie Eilish at the Grammys. Like they, they love her. Um, she’s one of the few like young [00:51:00] kind of artists who has already achieved that thing that like a lot of legacy artists have where like you see their name and I’m like, Oh, I bet they didn’t even listen to the album.

[00:51:07] Christina: They just voted. Right. Um, but, but that was also a great song and huge movie. Um, I have to say though, like, yeah, the performances this year were really good. Uh, Trevor Noah was funny. Uh, he made like a, a Taylor Swift, um, uh, NFL joke at the beginning that like she laughed at and that was funny. And it was, it was, it totally worked.

[00:51:26] Christina: It was like a total 180 from like the Golden Globes guy. It was like, Oh yeah, see, this is what happens when you actually hire a professional

[00:51:32] Jeff: Did you see the New York Times piece analyzing the amount of time that the NFL put the camera on Taylor? Okay. I should have sent that, but I was like, I don’t need to send this. She knows.

[00:51:41] Christina: I know, yeah, totally, um, What’s His Face, Cowheat, Colin Cowheat, like, did the same thing where he basically called, um, the, the NFL fans who are, like, mad at it, they basically, he basically called them incels, is basically what he did, and it was great, um,

[00:51:54] Jeff: All right. So

[00:51:55] Christina: he’s not wrong, he’s not wrong, but no, but, but, but, but Miley was great, she looked [00:52:00] great, I think I tweeted at some point, I was like, like, Liam Hemsworth, like, like, um, wellness check, because it, you know, Um, speaking of wellness checks, when, when Taylor won for best, um, uh, pop vocal, uh, which I was expecting her to win that album of the year was a surprise, but whatever.

[00:52:20] Christina: When she announced that, like she announced that she, we all thought she was going to be like, oh, Reputation, Taylor’s version coming soon. And she’s like, no, I have a new album coming out on, on April 19th called the Tortured Poets Society. And, uh, and you can pre order it now. And then her store It took me half an hour to check out, which was insane to me.

[00:52:43] Christina: Um, also, um, we all need to, or, it’s not Portrait, not Tortured Poets Society, uh, it’s Tortured Poets Department. Sorry, I’m a bad fan. Um, I felt really bad for Casey Musgraves, who had paid a lot of money to have a, uh, an ad for her new album, which is also coming out on April 19th.

[00:52:59] Jeff: [00:53:00] Yeah.

[00:53:00] Christina: before Taylor one, Casey, Casey, girl, you’re going to have to move that date.

[00:53:05] Jeff: yeah, friend of the show, Kacey Musgraves.

[00:53:07] Christina: Yeah, girl, you’re going to have to move that date because like, Universal is both of your labels and, and they are not going to put any money behind you at all. Like you’re going to have to move, you’re going to have to move. Um, but I felt bad for her for that. But

[00:53:19] Jeff: you’re driving down the road and it’s completely gone into the sea,

[00:53:23] Christina: but we got the track listing after, uh, like yesterday for, for the, the, um, the new Taylor album. And uh, This is, this is an album that I’m, I’m going to call it now. It’s going to be called Fuck Joe, um, uh, colon the album, uh, Joe meaning her ex boyfriend because shit, like she’s not even remotely fucking around.

[00:53:43] Christina: Like there’s a, like it, it is basically like, yep, she,

[00:53:49] Jeff: Does she go harder? Like, okay, she’s with Football Jones now. When she has had a terrible breakup, and I’m not trying to oversimplify this though, because she does a fucking great job of of putting [00:54:00] breakup shit in the song. So I’m not when she, but it traditionally, historically, if she is writing from a place of being in a relationship that is feeling good at that moment, is she even more vicious about the last one?

[00:54:14] Christina: Well, yes and no. And here’s the thing. She made it very clear to say that she’d been sitting on this album for two years.

[00:54:20] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:54:21] Christina: So, which to me is like her saying like, this is not about the current boyfriend. This is, this is Fuck Joe the album. So

[00:54:26] Jeff: The hard part about being the boyfriend. And look, it’s not about me. She doesn’t say football once.

[00:54:31] Christina: She has songs called like, uh, uh, Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me, um, I Can Fix Him, um, no really, I Can. Um, but daddy, I love him. Um, I can do it with a broken heart. So long, London. Which, he’s from London, so she’s, that’s, again, like, this is like a, an album that’s very much like Go Fuck

[00:54:50] Jeff: That’s funny, because I bet he was in the zone where he’s like, I think I dodged the bullet.

[00:54:53] Christina: No, I bet he was, and, and that’s the thing.

[00:54:55] Christina: This is where I honestly feel like she’s processed this enough, and she’s like, Oh no, I’m in a good place [00:55:00] now. Also, I literally have nothing left to prove, so fuck it. I’m going to destroy you. I’m, I’m literally going to destroy you. Like, you thought that the song that she released, uh, You’re Losing Me, um, as like a bonus track.

[00:55:13] Christina: Like, it was like, oh, you thought that was going to be the worst? No, no, no. This is like, sorry, bro. Like, maybe you should have had, maybe you should have let her, maybe you should have showed up for her is all I know.

[00:55:23] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joe,

[00:55:26] Christina: she wrote, she wrote, this, this is what the liner notes say.

[00:55:28] Christina: And so I enter into evidence my tarnished coat of arms, my muses acquired like bruises, that’s a good line, my talismans and charms, the tick, tick, tick of love bombs, my veins of pitch black ink, all’s fair in love and poetry, sincerely, the chairman of the tortured poets department.

[00:55:47] Jeff: to quote my people, oof ta.

[00:55:50] Christina: like, he used to be in a group chat called, like, the Tortured Men’s Club. So, anyway, um, anyway, [00:56:00] but back to Miley. Miley was great. Uh, she looks great. Boy Genius did not perform, but they won three Grammys. That was

[00:56:06] Jeff: And they’re on hiatus? Is that right? I thought I

[00:56:08] Christina: yeah, yeah. Well, they,

[00:56:09] Jeff: Just because they all do their own thing.

[00:56:11] Christina: Yeah, I think they, they, like, committed a year to the project, and then, like, the year’s up.

[00:56:15] Jeff: their fucking Grammy and we’re like, all right, cool, we’re done.

[00:56:18] Christina: but they were adorable,

[00:56:20] Jeff: were adorable. They were wearing white suits. They fucking ran to the stage. I mean, because they weren’t wearing dresses. Yeah. Like, I want to see more people run to the stage. And they were, they were

[00:56:31] Christina: it was super cute. And it was super cute. And like, they were like, Phoebe had already won one like backstage, but, um, I guess when they were getting ready with SZA and they didn’t accept that one. But then, um, when they got their three, like, you could tell that they never They were not expecting, you know, like, best rock album, best rock, or not rock album, but like rock song, and like, alternative album, and I think, um, something else with rock, but like, good on them.

[00:56:59] Jeff: [00:57:00] yeah, good job. And then Tracy Chapman, holy shit,

[00:57:03] Christina: Holy shit.

[00:57:04] Jeff: incredible, who doesn’t perform, right?

[00:57:06] Christina: No, last time she performed on TV was, was for Letterman in 2015, like, for one of his last shows.

[00:57:12] Jeff: So Fast Car is one of the most beautiful songs ever written, and, and like, it’s, it was unbelievable. I mean, it just, her, God, I wish she did still perform, but how cool that she doesn’t, but when she does, it’s like, just so you know, I’ve got this in here, I just keep it at home.

[00:57:28] Christina: he was so cute with her, like, he was, he was like, he was singing, like, he was like, like, mouthing the

[00:57:32] Jeff: was mouthing the words when it wasn’t his turn!

[00:57:35] Christina: Yeah, which was adorable. And everybody in the audience was, like, into it, like, everybody, like, when the chorus was hitting, like, everybody, like, Oprah was having the time of her life, because Oprah was there.

[00:57:46] Christina: And, uh,

[00:57:47] Jeff: she’s always got she was a chair sitter. She was

[00:57:49] Christina: Yeah, I mean, well,

[00:57:50] Jeff: Seat filler.

[00:57:51] Christina: Meryl Streep was also there because Meryl Streep’s, um, um, son in law is Mark Ronson.

[00:57:55] Jeff: Oh, funny, I didn’t know that. Huh.

[00:57:57] Christina: Yeah, um, and then of course, uh, Joni [00:58:00] Mitchell performed,

[00:58:00] Jeff: Great. I haven’t seen that though.

[00:58:03] Christina: um, it, it, I’ll find it for you. It’s, it’s a crier because she’s 80, and you know, like, nine years ago she had an aneurysm, and like, we all thought she was dead.

[00:58:10] Christina: Dead. Like, genuinely. And I don’t know how she’d never performed at the Grammys before. Because that was insane to me. Like, that’s nuts. I’m like, in the 70s, why would you not have her up there

[00:58:20] Jeff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:58:22] Christina: Um, so, so, you know, uh, Canada gave us good stuff with that. And then, um, Billy Joel performed. He was, he was good, actually.

[00:58:32] Christina: But, but that was

[00:58:33] Jeff: his, uh, with his drummer, Liberty DeVito. I’m just here to tell everybody, friend of the show, Liberty DeVito, they’re friends again. Great

[00:58:41] Christina: Oh, and Annie Lennox, um, did a, um, a nice, uh, rendition of, uh, Nothing Compares to You, uh,

[00:58:47] Jeff: Oh, nice. Nice.

[00:58:50] Christina: Um,

[00:58:50] Jeff: That’s amazing.

[00:58:51] Christina: performances were really good,

[00:58:52] Jeff: Yeah, why does it so now everything like you had said, like Phoebe, Phoebe versus one award backstage, which that’s pretty badass, by the way, [00:59:00] just like, I just, we’re hanging out just a minute, I just won an award over here by the catering table. But like, is the deal because I didn’t watch the show.

[00:59:07] Jeff: It seems like everything I was seeing like Killer Mike’s acceptance tweets, it looks like it was in the middle of the ceremonies, which I guess it was just not televised.

[00:59:14] Christina: That’s not televised, right? So they do

[00:59:15] Jeff: Why? Why

[00:59:16] Christina: be because they can’t fit all of them. Because it’s like a hundred awards.

[00:59:20] Jeff: Yeah, no, it’s 100 words for sure. But like, both of those felt like ones that could totally be in the show.

[00:59:26] Christina: you’re not wrong. And this is a contentious thing. So for instance, they, there’s a battle over the years with the Grammys, uh, the Accordion Academy about like, okay, the tele, because the telecast makes them all their money.

[00:59:38] Christina: And, and so they need ratings. And to get the ratings, you need to have performances. But if you have performances, then that means you don’t have award time. And so they give out the bulk of the awards, um, at a ceremony a few hours beforehand. And like, that’s when Boy Genius got theirs. That’s when Killer Mike got his.

[00:59:52] Jeff: And is the full crowd there

[00:59:55] Christina: No,

[00:59:55] Jeff: crypto. com arena?

[00:59:57] Christina: I mean, you have, you have, it’s [01:00:00] probably more people are probably at that one than they are at the main event.

[01:00:03] Jeff: Okay. Okay.

[01:00:03] Christina: Because the main event is really like, this is the televised one. So that’s like album of the year, song of the year, record of the year, um, best new artist, you know, that sort of thing.

[01:00:12] Christina: Um, and then they will pick like what songs they used to do. Like in the 90s, like when Alternative was getting bigger, like they would make like best rock album, best Alternative, that would be part of the main ceremony. That’s not anymore. Um, they, they, uh, will go back and forth. Like, SZA did have one of her, one of her awards was given to her on stage, and I think that they probably put that one in the main ceremony because they, she was, got the most nominations.

[01:00:37] Christina: She did not win the most, but she got the most nominations, and I think they wanted to be able to like let her actually accept an award on stage, so that’s probably why they put that there. I, I don’t know. Um. But yeah, it’s a hard thing because like the show went long. It was like three and a half hours.

[01:00:51] Christina: Like it went long. Um, like it’s supposed to end at 11. Like it ended at 11. 37 or something. Like it went long. Um,

[01:00:58] Jeff: Not to put too fine a [01:01:00] point on it.

[01:01:00] Christina: well, because I was watching three hours behind, but

[01:01:03] Jeff: Yeah,

[01:01:04] Christina: I was like, I would,

[01:01:04] Jeff: must be nice in that case.

[01:01:06] Christina: It is, and then they replay it immediately afterwards, and so I was just like, okay, wow, this, this went long as fuck, because, oh, part of that was that Jay Z got some, like, Dr.

[01:01:15] Christina: Dre Lifetime Achievement Award, and then he just talked forever,

[01:01:18] Jeff: Okay. Got

[01:01:19] Christina: like, he just talked forever, and like, like, as a, as a, I don’t know, man, like, maybe, maybe write it down next time, I don’t know, but like, um, Beyonce did show up, though, like, like, they came in late, like, they weren’t there for the whole thing, but they came in, and she was there with Blue Ivy, and like, she had a cowboy

[01:01:33] Jeff: come in late before I, I like that

[01:01:35] Christina: Yeah, I like that too. I mean, they can.

[01:01:37] Jeff: there when we get there. They got

[01:01:40] Christina: Let’s be real. Like, Beyonce can show up any fucking time she wants,

[01:01:44] Jeff: Who’s the seat filler for Beyonce? Do you have to appear at least a little bit, incredible and regal, or can you just be Sandy from North Carolina?

[01:01:51] Christina: I mean, I don’t know. I guess it depends on where she’s seated.

[01:01:54] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing.

[01:01:57] Christina: but yeah, so the performances were really good and [01:02:00] like, okay, I will say this and then I’ll shut up about this because we’ve been talking too long about the Grammys, but I was accused of being a Taylor Swift anti on Threads, which was the most

[01:02:11] Jeff: Wait, what’s a Taylor Swift anti? It’s

[01:02:13] Christina: Meaning someone who’s, who, who, yes,

[01:02:15] Jeff: Oh, okay. Why is it at the end? Why they bury the lead.

[01:02:21] Christina: fan culture, I

[01:02:22] Jeff: Okay, okay. Why were you that? Why were you that? What happened,

[01:02:24] Christina: because, because all I said was, okay, I think we can all agree that she won the award, and I’m very happy she won the award, but it was like a cumulative thing, like it was kind of like a, we’re really sorry that ten years ago we gave Random Access Memories by Daft Punk, album of the

[01:02:39] Jeff: Sorry we let Kanye up on stage that one time.

[01:02:42] Christina: Well, that was the VMAs,

[01:02:43] Jeff: Oh, those VMAs. Sorry.

[01:02:44] Christina: that was the VMAs, but, but no, but it was like, to me, I was like, okay, well, this is clearly, cause like all award shows do this, like the Oscars do this to the Emmys as well. We’re like, you, you win the award and it’s not actually for that piece of art. It is either for your cumulative artistic achievement that year, [01:03:00] which this year, let’s No one has had more impact in the world than her, so fair.

[01:03:07] Christina: Or, because like, hey Leo DiCaprio, we’re really sorry we didn’t give you Oscars all those other times, but you jumped inside a bear, so we’re gonna give it to you for the revenant, right?

[01:03:17] Jeff: Yep, here’s a new young woman as a girlfriend.

[01:03:20] Christina: right, right. So like, you know, sometimes the award that you win, it’s not for that particular piece of art. It’s like, we’re really sorry that we got it wrong all those times in the past.

[01:03:29] Christina: And also you had like a really big year. So all I’m

[01:03:32] Jeff: this logic, I should be getting my fucking Grammy soon.

[01:03:35] Christina: totally you should. But, but like, I’m just saying like, Midnight’s Not the best album of the year. Like, not even close. Am I mad that she won her fourth album of the year? No. I think that, again, like, cumulatively, like, for everything else, like, that she, she, she saved the music industry.

[01:03:52] Christina: Like, she sold more records than all the other, like, 20 people combined. Like, it’s, it’s, you know what I mean? Like, okay, give it [01:04:00] to her. I get it. The Aris Tour has changed economies. Like, I get it. Give it to her.

[01:04:04] Jeff: I’m just kidding.

[01:04:05] Christina: But, yes, same, but, like, don’t pretend that this is like the best album, and so I guess some Taylor Swift stan was like, oh, you know, like, was basically calling me an anti and was like, oh, you know, the, the meltdowns are starting already, and I’m like, I’m not melting down, I’m just saying clearly this was because Red lost ten years ago, and like, This is Payback, not, you know, I’m not like in any way diminishing anything.

[01:04:29] Christina: And the person was like, oh, well, you could have just said that Red deserved a Grammy too. And I’m like, okay, but like, Midnight’s wasn’t the best album of 2023. Like, what do you want me to, you want me to lie? Like, I’m not going to.

[01:04:41] Jeff: You’re not

[01:04:42] Christina: it’s not even the top,

[01:04:43] Jeff: I’m not gonna

[01:04:43] Christina: even her, it’s, it’s not even one of her fifth, it’s, I think it’s probably like her seventh best album.

[01:04:48] Christina: Like,

[01:04:49] Jeff: Okay, I wanna say, I wanna say something I love about the term Taylor Swift Anti, which is that it seems like the community will not besmirch her name by putting another word before it. [01:05:00] Everything goes at the end. It’s like Taylor Swift the Lionhearted. It’s like Taylor Swift anti. So like, even if what’s, what we’re talking about is bad, we get the positive jolt, the dopamine hit of hearing your name first, before we get mad.

[01:05:14] Christina: Before we get mad. Yeah, but but it was anyway, but that was a very funny thing to me I was like wait I just I just waited in line for 30 minutes to spend 76 with tax and shipping on this bitch on her new album like because I had to buy the CD the vinyl

[01:05:28] Jeff: Friend of the show, this bitch.

[01:05:30] Christina: Yeah completely. I was like, okay, so I I’m an anti just cuz I’m like,

[01:05:36] Jeff: Yeah,

[01:05:36] Christina: so she didn’t want it for this album where it it was clearly cumulative which Yeah, I, I, cause, you’re not, you’re not

[01:05:43] Jeff: was white guilt.

[01:05:44] Christina: that, here we go.

[01:05:48] Brett: Can I title the episode Taylor Swift anti question mark?

[01:05:52] Jeff: I thought it was going to be the one where Brett’s drunk. Um, no, that’s a good one. Uh, can I just say to people that if you, [01:06:00] if any of this piqued your interest, I love watching Grammy clips on TikTok. I mean, not as much as I like watching live streams of oil riggers. Last night, we were supposed to finish, we were supposed to finish, uh, uh, Lenny, whatever, the Lenny Bernstein, Bernstein movie, um, and, and I was enthralled watching a live stream of oil riggers and, and it was like, come on, we got to watch, we said, no, we got to watch this.

[01:06:24] Jeff: Oh, fine. I’ll watch this. But I understood. More of what was happening in the oil riggers than I could of what Bradley Cooper was saying in his fantastic, uh, job of playing Leonard Bernstein. But man, I can’t hear a damn, I can’t understand a damn thing. I don’t even know what I’m talking about. It’s crazy.

[01:06:42] Jeff: It’s good though. Do you guys watch that movie? Yeah. It’s good. It’s not great,

[01:06:49] Christina: uh, haven’t seen it yet.

[01:06:50] Jeff: Like, it’s irresistible in a way, but

[01:06:54] Brett: I just watch a proposal and I would say the same thing.

[01:06:59] Christina: Proposal’s [01:07:00] good. That’s a Ryan Reynolds and um, uh, um, Sandra Bullock. That’s a fucking great movie. Honestly, that’s a great rom com.

[01:07:07] Brett: it was not great, but it was good.

[01:07:08] Jeff: Yeah. I don’t even mean to say not great, but good, because I really, there’s so much I loved about this movie, but it is, and it’s all just like vignettes, but it’s not really, it’s not really telling you that it is. So you’re just like, what fucking house am I in now? It’s very confusing. But I could, he’s, he’s absolutely incredible to watch.

[01:07:26] Jeff: I mean, it’s just,

[01:07:27] Brett: of, after that Merlin episode, I become obsessed with House.

[01:07:32] Jeff: I need to

[01:07:33] Christina: Oh, such a good show.

[01:07:35] Brett: I’ve been watching one to two episodes a night ever since that episode. And I. I’m obsessed with House now. It’s, it’s a really good show.

[01:07:46] Christina: It is a really good show.

[01:07:47] Brett: It’s really good writing. It’s really good writing, and it’s really good character development, and I cannot complain at all.

[01:07:55] Brett: I love House.

[01:07:57] Jeff: Well, maybe I’ll get

[01:07:58] Brett: That’s, that’s, that’s [01:08:00] Drunk Brett’s addition to this whole conversation

[01:08:03] Jeff: Have you guys walked house?

[01:08:05] Brett: as he’s watching a 10 year old show. Have you guys seen the

[01:08:10] Jeff: And I stole your wallet. I stole your wallet.

[01:08:13] Christina: to feel really old?

[01:08:14] Jeff: Yeah, always. I don’t need to, but yes.

[01:08:17] Christina: House debuted in 2004.

[01:08:19] Brett: Oh, Jesus, fuck.

[01:08:21] Jeff: Wow.

[01:08:22] Brett: Jesus, fuck. Okay, yeah. So, you see all this gray hair on my

[01:08:27] Jeff: I don’t think anybody does. But I do.

[01:08:30] Brett: Hey, you have it too.

[01:08:32] Jeff: Oh, are you kidding me? I have a little Jesus Christ.

[01:08:36] Christina: I, I, um, knock on wood very much, so, like, I have, I do not, like, I have a few,

[01:08:42] Jeff: Got nothing? Hehehehehehe.

[01:08:45] Christina: stray greys that I honestly started getting, like, ten years ago, but I, it’s, it’s small, like, and it’s one of the things where I, I, I can pluck them, and it’s, like, maybe one part of my head, and it’s, I don’t have anything else, and, um, I always ask my stylist every time I see him, like, how’s it [01:09:00] looking, how’s it going, because my mom went white, like, my mom went gray, and so she gets her hair dyed, like, like, she, she goes, like, every three

[01:09:05] Jeff: went white early.

[01:09:06] Brett: it’s, it’s gonna happen to you all at once. When you finally stop being, what, 29?

[01:09:12] Christina: yeah. Well, my grandmother was

[01:09:13] Brett: all at once, all at once, you’re just gonna go,

[01:09:16] Jeff: Adele, every album would have the same name.

[01:09:19] Christina: It would. It would always be 29. Um, no, but my grandmother was 90 when she died, and she still, like, she was, like, it was pretty dark. Like, it was, she helped, so I’m, I’m hoping that, like, I inherit from her,

[01:09:33] Brett: I

[01:09:34] Christina: not from my mom.

[01:09:36] Brett: I hope for you.

[01:09:37] Christina: I mean, uh, well, what, one person told me, they’re like, if you haven’t already gone, if it hasn’t already started now, they’re like, it’s not gonna happen.

[01:09:43] Christina: So,

[01:09:44] Brett: myself in the mirror today and I saw this gray and I was like, dude,

[01:09:48] Jeff: Well, you’re rockin a proper Salt N Pepa right

[01:09:51] Brett: You’re pulling it off. You’re,

[01:09:52] Christina: you are pulling it off.

[01:09:53] Brett: I, I

[01:09:54] Christina: Well, you’re also a man.

[01:09:55] Jeff: As I was gonna say,

[01:09:56] Brett: enough. Fair enough. I am the age I am and I’m [01:10:00] actually, I’m proud to have lived long enough to have gray hair. Like that was not in the cards for me.

[01:10:08] Brett: So I’m okay with it.

[01:10:10] Christina: I think, I think that’s completely fair.

[01:10:12] Jeff: Yeah, man, they call me Greybeard and Silverback. Um, awesome! Well, we did it. This is nice. We give the listeners one episode that’s not two hours long. Uh, we’ll be back with two

[01:10:27] Brett: first episode, one hour, we did it.

[01:10:30] Jeff: Yeah,

[01:10:31] Christina: It was still incredibly ADHD, which I love about it. Like, if anything, it was even more ADHD than usual. Like,

[01:10:36] Jeff: Yes.

[01:10:37] Brett: and we did not even do a Mental Health Corner.

[01:10:40] Jeff: Oh shit, I didn’t even realize that. I’d really like to see a transcript of this, uh, this episode that is only proper nouns. Because I feel like you can actually watch what happened to us by just the list of proper

[01:10:53] Brett: I, I will send you, I will send you the transcript. I know you have the software to make that happen.

[01:10:59] Jeff: I sure [01:11:00] do. Awesome. Well, yeah, I mean, that’s funny, you know, Mental Health Corner, but you know, let’s, uh, we should wrap it anyhow.

[01:11:07] Christina: We’ll wrap it anyway. We’ll, we’ll start with Mental Health Corner properly

[01:11:10] Jeff: Alright, y’all. Get some sleep?

[01:11:13] Brett: Get some sleep.

[01:11:15] Jeff: Yeah.

[01:11:15] Christina: some sleep.

[01:11:16] Jeff: Uh huh. Hey, everybody.