The DevRel Episode

[00:00:00] Christina: Hello, you’re listening to Overtired. That’s right. There was not an error in your podcast feed. Uh, we are actually back with another episode. I’m Christina Warren, joined as always by Brett Terpstra. Jeff Severins Gunzel could not be with us this week, but that means that we are with, back with one of our very favorite guests, um, uh, your friend and mine, Mr.

[00:00:25] Christina: Jay Miller. Jay, welcome back!

[00:00:28] Jay: It, uh, getting on here the first time felt like a fluke, and now, now I just feel like I’ve, I’ve, I’m on to something.

[00:00:37] Brett: Do we have a new co host? If, if, if, if Jeff ever, if Jeff ever bows out, we’ll give you a call.

[00:00:44] Jay: as, as long as we don’t have to go through voting like 57 times to elect me as the, the new Overtired speaker,

[00:00:54] Brett: Yeah. Christina, Christina is part of the Freedom Caucus. She’s gonna, she’s gonna block [00:01:00] your, uh, your, uh, nomination every time.

[00:01:02] Christina: That’s exactly what it’s going to be. I’m going to be like, no, look, there, there are too many Atlanta people now. And so

[00:01:08] Jay: I love it.

[00:01:10] Brett: So, uh. We, just fair warning, we may be off again next week, but then we’re going to get back into a weekly, uh, uh, session again and try to stick with weekly episodes moving forward. We had a, we had a very extended summer break.

[00:01:31] Christina: we did and we needed it. It was, it was, it was okay. Like, honestly, since the pandemic, uh, Brett, we’ve been insanely consistent. Like, like, like we’ve had a couple of like dips and dots that were big in there. But given the fact that we once went, I think, 14 months between episodes, I think that having like a few weeks away for our longtime loyal listeners, and thank you very much to those of you who’ve listened to us for a long time, um, Um, we were good actually at the top of that, [00:02:00] when I was at, um, all Things Open a few weeks ago, uh, I ran into Cullen, um, who told me that, um, Brett and, and I had gotten him through some really tough times and that was like the nicest thing that anybody has ever just like walked up and told me.

[00:02:15] Christina: And so Cullen, I, I don’t know if you’re listening or not, uh, I don’t know if you still listen, but the fact that I had an overtired listener come up to me at all, things open and I had overtired hadn’t even been on in a while. And I hadn’t even announced that like I was gonna be there. Like that was the nicest and coolest and, uh, like most affirming thing.

[00:02:31] Christina: So

[00:02:32] Brett: Yeah, that always, that always feels good. Um, as someone who over shares constantly, um, I get, I get a fair number of emails. Um, at least weekly, sometimes multiple days in a row of people just saying, Hey, you, you made my life easier. You made it easier for me to talk about my mental health at my job. You made it easier for me to talk to my family about my mental health.

[00:02:59] Brett: And [00:03:00] yeah, there’s a, there’s a place for us. We have, we have a purpose in the world.

[00:03:07] Christina: There’s a place for nerdy geeks who really like to talk about automation and, um, nerd tools, uh, pop culture and, uh, and mental health. So yay.

[00:03:16] Mental Health Corner

[00:03:16] Brett: Speaking of mental health, should we kick off a mental health corner?

[00:03:21] Christina: We should do it. We should do it.

[00:03:23] Brett: Um, I, I can go, but I want to open the floor to Jay. Jay, do you want to kick off the mental health corner?

[00:03:32] Jay: yeah, let’s, let’s talk about this. So, um, all of us have this fun role that we call DevRel. Um, no one really knows what it is. I love how every interview starts off with, how do you define

[00:03:49] Christina: Yes. Thank you. So funny.

[00:03:52] Jay: a large part of that for me was being out in the community and just hanging out with people. And, um, for those [00:04:00] that don’t know me, hi, I’m Jay, I’m black, and my voice sometimes does not show that.

[00:04:05] Jay: Um, but, the other side of that is, I go to these conferences and I play this game of, like, how many fingers do I need to count the number of black people at conferences with me? Um, Usually it’s the single digit ones where I don’t go back, but, uh, I’m, I’m happy because I’ve been on the conference scene again lately.

[00:04:28] Jay: Um, two weeks ago I was in Durham, North Carolina for DjangoCon US. Uh, that’s a Python web framework conference and like got to hang out with. I think we had like 30, not 30, sorry, wrong conference, about like 12, 15 like black folks there, which for a 200 person conference, that’s actually a higher number than you’d expect, um, but then, but the other side of that was [00:05:00] I started this community because I was tired of being the only person there called Black Python Devs.

[00:05:06] Jay: We got to have our first in person meetup at that event. And it was so cool to be like, at an ice cream parlor with folks from, you know, different parts of Africa, different parts of the US, Latin America, and just be like, Yo, we came here for ice cream, but also to like just hug each other and be like we exist There are a lot of spider man meme photos Being taken and no we don’t all look alike, but that’s okay But then I got to go to like the reverse polar of that which is refactor tech, which is like a conference in Atlanta Designed for like, this is a space where no shits are given.

[00:05:50] Jay: Like everyone is like, we’re here. We’re here to address these things that happen. Kim Creighton was one of the keynotes, like, um, and I got to give a talk that I’ve [00:06:00] been thinking about for almost a year now, which was called Python versus hip hop, how we can remix code, community, and culture, and. Just the compliments that I got were like so fantastic.

[00:06:15] Jay: So I feel like I’m on cloud nine right now just because I’ve had two of the best conference experiences I’ve had in my career. Um, and they just happened to happen like back to back. And then next week I get to go to GitHub universe and hang out with super awesome, cool people. So like. This has been a good conference season for me mentally.

[00:06:37] Christina: That’s so great. That’s, that’s really, really, I’m, I’m glad to hear that. And I hope, I, I, I don’t know, I’m afraid that GitHub Universe is not going to have the sort of, like, I, I, it’ll be more than one hand. But I, I don’t know, like, what our diversity stats will be for, for the attendees there. I hope on the community track we’ll have more people there.

[00:06:56] Christina: But, um, yeah.

[00:06:59] Jay: I’ll [00:07:00] get to hang out with some of my co workers that I’ve worked with for two years and never gotten to meet in person, so I’ll probably just be focusing a lot on that.

[00:07:08] Christina: Yeah, yeah, but definitely, like, give us, legit, like, give us your feedback, not, and I, and I know you will, like, in terms of what you see and what not on that, because we talk a big game about that stuff, and, and I don’t know If we always do as good of a job as we can, um, although like on my immediate team, um, you know, we’ve done better than, um, a lot of other places that I’ve worked in terms of actually looking at like hiring diverse people.

[00:07:31] Christina: And by that, I don’t just mean black people. Um, and, uh, but you know, we can always do better. So, um, I am glad to know that there were that many people, uh, at the, uh, the, the DjangoCon, like that’s, that’s really. Like, good to hear.

[00:07:48] Jay: Yeah, I interviewed that organization team and they were just like, we’ve been working on this for ten years. Um, But I think the challenging part with that is, I then ask them a very [00:08:00] easy question. Hey, North Carolina A& T is 20 minutes away, did you reach out to them? And North Carolina A& T, for those that don’t know, historically black college and university.

[00:08:08] Jay: One of the largest, like, collectives of black education, like, pursuers and leaders. And they’re just like, awww. Missed an opportunity there. And it’s, it’s, it’s one of those things that like Brett knows I am absolutely not shy about getting up somewhere and being like, where the hell are the black people at?

[00:08:28] Jay: And they like sitting there in, in their confusion. And in the end, it’s just like, Oh, if you actually try, you get results. But also don’t be happy with your results. There’s always ways that you can improve.

[00:08:44] Christina: Right. Right. No, I mean, and that’s the thing, right? And, and I think actually you bring up a good point on the education front. Cause I run into this, um, with, or I ran into this at Microsoft. I don’t know if this is the case at GitHub and I, I’m not going to pretend it’s, I don’t know if it’s still the same case at Microsoft now, [00:09:00] but when I would talk to our, like our, uh, our student team and like kind of like people who are trying to do recruit, recruitment and trying to, you know, bring in like more people from more diverse backgrounds.

[00:09:09] Christina: I would often be like, okay, so why are all the colleges that we’re focusing on, like you say you want to do this, but you’re not going to a lot of historically black colleges and universities, you’re not going to a lot of, like, uh, you know, public universities that might have, like, good schools but, like, diverse backgrounds, like, you’re still focused on your very, like, Elite number of schools and, and then the University of Washington, because it’s local.

[00:09:33] Christina: Um, like, do you, do you not understand why that’s a problem for your pipeline? Because you’re only looking at places that if you look at, you know, A, the number of students they have, which is usually small, and B, the percentages of, you know, people who are like, not white or Asian, who are like, Students there do not understand, and male for the most part in the engineering schools, do not understand why, like, this is why this is [00:10:00] the only people that you say you can hire.

[00:10:03] Christina: Like, because you’re literally only looking at, you’re still focusing on, on these specific institutions, even though every single study shows that that doesn’t really determine the outcome of success for people, uh, by any means.

[00:10:18] Jay: Can I shamelessly promote something that I made like two years ago? So I created this list pulled from the department of education’s like data set. And it’s just called HBCU list. It’s a GitHub repo. And all it is is sorted out by state, every single historically black college and university, or primarily black institution, which just means that they have a, like more than.

[00:10:40] Jay: Large percentage of black students. Like I’m, I’m sharing this with, uh, the Python software foundation for this year. We’re going to be in Pittsburgh for PyCon US and like the goal is literally. Pittsburgh, surrounding states, finding every single school on this list and at least just inviting them and saying here are some free [00:11:00] tickets.

[00:11:00] Jay: Like, it’s driving distance, you can come. Like, if you need to get a hotel, we have grants available. Like, it’s… It always amazes me how like, these little actions, you get like two or three people to show up and then the next year like 20 show up. So just, just doing something and yeah, feel free to use this list.

[00:11:20] Jay: It’s, I mean, I stole it from the Department of Education. And I only say stole because this, the link that I got this from is no longer available. So I wonder if they want this out there.

[00:11:31] Christina: Well, I mean,

[00:11:33] Brett: Minnesota has zero historically black institutions.

[00:11:38] Jay: That makes sense though. I mean, most of them are in the southeast. They kind of move north. I feel like the further west you go, the harder it is to find them, but if they don’t have any PBI’s, then that, I mean, yeah, that, that also kind of makes sense, but

[00:11:56] Brett: Yeah,

[00:11:57] Jay: think Minneapolis would have

[00:11:58] Brett: I would think [00:12:00] so,

[00:12:00] Jay: Yeah.

[00:12:01] Brett: but we do like compared to Atlanta, like we have no black people compared to Atlanta. Um, it’s, you know, there is a, there is a population. There’s a, there’s a whole George Floyd incident. I don’t know if you heard about that.

[00:12:19] Jay: Oh yeah. I heard about that.

[00:12:21] Christina: yeah, I

[00:12:21] Brett: a historically racist police department in Minneapolis.

[00:12:26] Brett: I don’t know if you’re familiar with this at all, but

[00:12:29] Jay: Yeah. Uh, no, it’s, it’s not ringing a bell. Um, I,

[00:12:34] Brett: I’ll send you some links. It’ll be fine.

[00:12:37] Christina: Washington also, not surprisingly, does not have any historically Black colleges or universities. We’re not as racist as Oregon, but, I mean, that’s a small bar, but we are very close to Oregon. So, you know.

[00:12:52] Jay: I feel like that should be on the state flag somewhere.

[00:12:55] Christina: Yeah, not as racist as Oregon. Like, we weren’t literally created [00:13:00] as a state to, like, have no black people, so, you know, slightly better there, but, yeah.

[00:13:07] Brett: Alright. Is that what you got, Jay?

[00:13:09] Jay: That’s what I got.

[00:13:10] Brett: Alright. Christina, do you want to go or should I?

[00:13:13] Christina: Uh, you go ahead and go. I’ll finish up.

[00:13:16] Brett: So, I’m currently looking for a new therapist. Um, I don’t dislike my current therapist, but what I really want to do is internal family systems therapy, and she has decided she is not qualified. to do that. She, like, she started researching, she started reading books, and ultimately realized it would take 80 hours of online training to get certified as an IFS therapist, and that just wasn’t feasible for her.

[00:13:47] Brett: So we’ve been looking around at options. In the meantime, I can, I’m continuing doing CBD with her, um, but, uh, I’ve been contacting I have [00:14:00] contacted 12 therapists, uh, in the state, uh, for telehealth sessions. And I have one that has a two month waiting list, which is fine. That’s, that’s not a big deal. Um, but everyone else is like, we’re not taking new clients and we.

[00:14:21] Brett: Don’t foresee ever taking new clients or like, we can’t tell you when we’ll actually be able to take new clients again. Um, so I have, I have one, I have one hope for IFS. Uh, in the meantime, I’m working with my current therapist. We’re kind of using IFS language, which is like for anyone unfamiliar, like, IFS is this idea that you have all of these parts within you that are often frozen at various points in time and, and they can take, uh, like, um, uh, [00:15:00] guard roles.

[00:15:01] Brett: in your forefront personality and, and can bring forward beliefs maybe that you don’t have, uh, like as your actual self and can make noise and, and react to things in a way that isn’t true to who you actually are. Um, and you deal with them by showing compassion, talking to these individual parts and Integrating them into your true self, uh, so that with the ultimate goal of acting from true self, which is like a compassionate, uh, uh, reasonable human being, which is what I want to be, um, And I, it’s, there’s parts of it that sound like a lot of woo to me.

[00:15:51] Brett: Um, but also when I read about like what the goals of it are, it’s something I do really want. So I [00:16:00] am exploring finding an IFS therapist to go through this with me. Um, that said, I have found. My loudest voice is this little Christian boy that seems to be frozen around the age of 10. And he has a checklist of all of the things I do that are going to condemn me to hell.

[00:16:25] Brett: And he is constantly fighting to make me feel terrible about things that I consider part of my identity. Uh, so working with my current therapist, I, I’ve been writing a letter to the little Christian boy. Um, I haven’t given him a name. I think it might be helpful to name him. Um, but, uh, writing a letter expressing.

[00:16:54] Brett: Uh, Who I actually am and where, well, so the first, the first [00:17:00] draft of this letter I wrote about who I actually am and all the ways he was wrong. And, and I went into like all this detail about like, you believe this and here’s why this is wrong. And that was… That was the incorrect approach. What I actually need to do is say, you’ve done a good job, uh, with what, you know, and, and you’ve, you’ve really looked out for me doing the best you can in, in this state you were frozen in and just show some compassion to this part of me.

[00:17:32] Brett: Uh, but like everything from my identity as like pansexual or my history with drug addiction and all of these things that. He considers, like, you know, reasons I should go to hell. Um, and I don’t need to spend time convincing him that I don’t believe in hell anymore. Um, I need to say, hey, good show, buddy.

[00:17:57] Brett: You tried. Um, [00:18:00] and just kind of accept, uh, Or get him to accept that he did, he did his work and he’s done and he can fuck off now. Um, so that’s, that’s my, that’s my like current, uh, therapy status. I also have been in a lot of discussions with my partner about, um, our kind of, the way we behave in social situations.

[00:18:27] Brett: Um, it started with a conversation about how I love to pick up other people’s check at dinner and she sees this as like a way of me showing off, a way of me like lording over them that I make more than they do and that’s not In any way, what it is for me, like for me, it’s like, Hey, how can I be generous and show these people that I love them and thank them for hanging out with us?

[00:18:55] Brett: And like, this is like, we want to do it again. So I’m going to make it as easy as [00:19:00] possible. And I just, like, I’ll intercept the check when I see the, the, the wait staff coming up, I’ll just like, hold my card out and be like, just one check, take it all. Um, and then. And then the people at the table will be like, Hey, so where’s the check?

[00:19:18] Brett: I’ll be like, don’t worry about it. I got this. And like, L sees that as like, um, haughty, I guess. But like, so, so I’m reworking like how I do this. And I want to make it more, um, I want to give them some agency in the matter. I want to, I want to stop and say, Hey, do you mind if I pick this up? And I don’t want to say you can get the next one, which was suggested to me when I brought this up on, on social media, they’re like, just say, I’ll get this, you can get the next one.

[00:19:53] Brett: But I don’t want people to not hang out with us because they feel like it’s their responsibility to not pick up [00:20:00] just their check, but also mine. Like, I don’t want to put that out there. So I just want to, I’m going to, I’m going to start asking. Can I get this? Um, we’ll see how that goes. Uh, the other topic that has come up is When I don’t know how to fit into a conversation, I tell a dad joke.

[00:20:21] Brett: Um, I will, I will interrupt a train of thought to tell a stupid fucking joke. And that’s my way of like, breaking in. Um, 4L, that entirely disrupts. Like the, the, the deeper conversation she was fostering for me in a party setting, like everything’s fair game. Like, let’s, let’s switch topics. Let’s keep this conversation like surface level and just skimming around.

[00:20:52] Brett: But she likes to dig deeper. She likes a deep dive in her conversations. And, and I always screw that [00:21:00] up. Um, so what we figured out is We don’t, we need to not have conversations with the same people at a party. We, we attract different types of people. The people that will enjoy a conversation with me are different people than the ones that will enjoy a conversation with her.

[00:21:20] Brett: And she spends time trying to rescue people I’m talking to from me. And I spend time trying to rescue people she’s talking to from her, whereas. What really should happen is we should get to the party, we should separate. We should talk to the people that each of us attracts or are attracted to and then, you know, check in with each other on occasion.

[00:21:45] Brett: Do you need another drink? How’s it going? Um, you good? You ready to go? Etc. Um, but like, have separate conversations, which makes perfect sense to me. It doesn’t offend me at all, and I think [00:22:00] she’s down with the idea. Like, I’m not a person who’s like, I can’t believe you spent all night talking to someone and didn’t include me.

[00:22:06] Brett: Like, I don’t care. I’m

[00:22:08] Christina: Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, no, I mean, I think that’s probably the right thing, and then maybe what you could find is that, okay, if you, you know, wind up, uh, being in a place where, um, you both, like, you meet someone who you think that L might like, or, or you kind of gravitate towards the same person, then you can have, like, kind of a, a shared conversation, right?

[00:22:27] Christina: Like, where, but,

[00:22:28] Brett: or at least an introduction and then bow out.

[00:22:31] Christina: totally,

[00:22:32] Brett: not the person for me, but you might be the person for Elle.

[00:22:35] Picking up the check

[00:22:35] Christina: Or, you know, if you think you might both like them, like, maybe you would have that comfort where you won’t do the interrupting while she’s talking thing to insert a, you know, unnecessary dad joke, um, uh, you know, which, uh, I, I totally get your impulse there. That’s also something maybe recognize that, like, if people are talking, like, you don’t always have to find your in that way, but, um, [00:23:00] I, I, I have a similar thing with you on picking up the check.

[00:23:02] Christina: I. And I’ve never even thought about it as people thinking like, Oh, you know, she thinks she’s better than anybody else. Cause it’s… Never been about that for me. It’s like, I appreciate being with you and I would like to show that. I think the thing is, I think people like, I think like, uh, you said, asking people if that’s okay, I think that’s a good thing.

[00:23:18] Christina: Um, the only thing there is you just have to be okay with, with people saying no. Um,

[00:23:23] Brett: Well, and I am. Like, it’s not like a moral obligation I have to pay the check. I just think it’s a nice, generous thing to do. And if I can afford it, why wouldn’t I do it? If they’re like, Oh no, we got this, or we got ours, let’s split the check. Fine. Totally fine. I’m not offended in any way.

[00:23:43] Christina: Yeah.

[00:23:44] Jay: Kind of two interesting things on that, like the, the splitting the check thing, uh, Brent, you and I have talked about this before, like I clearly make more money than everyone in my family. So, yeah. And, and in some ways they remind me of that, not in a [00:24:00] aggressive way, but like, uh, Hey, we should go somewhere.

[00:24:04] Jay: Uh, it’s not really in our budget to go somewhere right now. Um, okay, cool. Either I can choose to say, well, I want to go, so I will cover it. Or that’s cool. We’ll think of something that isn’t, you know, or that is more in your budget. We’ll do a, a game night at home. Like we’ve made investments, we got a pizza oven just to like.

[00:24:25] Jay: Have my sister come over from college and be like, yo, let’s make pizzas and hang out. Like, you don’t have to spend money now. But I, I definitely feel that whenever I am with people of equal or greater, like, financial position that it gets, it gets weird. Cause then it’s like, uh, and usually the to cover it.

[00:24:51] Brett: Yeah.

[00:24:52] Jay: Like, I’m not going to say, Hey, Brett, Christina, let’s go to like, you know, Ruth’s Chris on me, or let’s go to Ruth’s quiz [00:25:00] period. Like if I’m balling on like McDonald’s budget,

[00:25:03] Brett: Well, I think it’s, I think it’s a thing that you can, you can specify in the invitation. If you say, let us take you out to this restaurant. Instead of like, let’s go to this restaurant, let us take you out, and like, just set up that expectation from the beginning, and then if you say, let’s go, let’s meet at this place, then understand that the, the understanding is that you’ll be splitting the check.

[00:25:33] Christina: Yes. Yeah, that’s how I feel. Like, I, I, I mean, yeah, that’s what I do. I mean, like, if I, if I want to invite someone someplace, and, and I’m in a similar situation with, with you, um, Jay, where I would say at this point about half my friends make the same as, or in some cases more than me, but a lot of my friends, like, especially my journalist friends, like, I now make way more than them.

[00:25:54] Christina: So when we go out, thank you, Jay. Especially if it’s someplace that is pricier or whatever, like I usually [00:26:00] will buy like the first round of drinks or something else just because I understand sometimes that we’re in a, you know, situation where I’m like, okay, I know that I’m in a much better situation than you are just from a Paychecks point of view, um, although some of them might do better with savings and whatnot than me, um, but, you know, uh, and maybe if I’m there, you know, if I’m in New York or whatever, like I’m there on, on for work and, you know, um, I’m just like, okay, I’m, I’m.

[00:26:28] Christina: In a place where I can totally just get the check or, or, or get our drinks or whatever. Um, but I, I also feel like it’s sometimes one of those situations where, like you were saying, Brett, you just have to know the expectations. Where if, if the whole reason that somebody doesn’t want to go out is because they can’t afford it, if I know that, then I’ll be like, Oh no, I got this.

[00:26:45] Christina: You know, we, we can go out and do this. But if it’s one of those things where it’s like, you say to somebody, Let’s meet here, or have you wanted to go to this place, then I, I guess maybe wrongly, I, I kind of trust them to tell me if they can’t [00:27:00] afford it, or if it’s not something that’s within their budget right then, um, and then we can either find another place, or, you know, if it’s a place I really want to try, I can be like, hey, my treat, but, you know, generally, um, I don’t know, it’s weird, I think I have a good budget.

[00:27:14] Christina: Like read at this point on what types of friends I can invite to really expensive places and what types I can’t and it is not always based on income. There are some friends who will just budget and use their money for those things. Then I have some friends who are really freaking rich but are cheap as hell and I would like never invite to like, uh, you

[00:27:33] Brett: common,

[00:27:33] Christina: you know what I mean?

[00:27:34] Christina: Where I’m like, I would never invite them to an expensive restaurant because I know that they would like. Be weird about it.

[00:27:41] Brett: I have been invited to restaurants that I know that I can’t afford. Like I can’t afford my check, let alone picking up someone else’s. Um, and in those situations, I’ve, I’ve accepted the invite because I have assumed this person makes enough money. They’re going to buy both of [00:28:00] our meals. Uh, even though it wasn’t explicitly stated, I know that if someone’s going to bring me a 200 steak, I’m not going to be the one paying for it.

[00:28:10] Brett: Cause I would never do that to myself. And it’s always worked out. Like, uh,

[00:28:15] Christina: Oh, that’s cool.

[00:28:16] Brett: people that have taken me out, like in San Francisco, they’ve always, like, it’s never been a question. I got this.

[00:28:23] Christina: that’s interesting. I think like there’s like this weird like wasp part of me that would like never ever assume that someone else was paying the check and would feel like compelled to pay my part even if I was completely broke and didn’t have it because otherwise like unless it was like very clear like with the invite, oh we want to take you out.

[00:28:41] Christina: Or if you’re going out with, you know, a certain boss or something like my, my old boss, Prashant, Prashant pays for everything always. And that’s just how it is. And you go to really expensive

[00:28:49] Brett: well, bosses, bosses should pay. Parents, parents should pay when they take their kids out.

[00:28:56] Christina: It depends.

[00:28:58] Brett: So, okay, the way I was [00:29:00] raised, I have never, ever paid for my meal when eating with my parents, or, you know, whatever partner I have at the time, like, they have never paid. And that is, like, that’s the way I learned.

[00:29:14] Brett: If you take someone out, you pay for the meal, like,

[00:29:16] Christina: Yeah, no, and I, I, I only do if I want to, right? Like my parents, it’s one of those things where I’m like, no, I’ll, I’ll take care of this. I mean, the assumption, yeah, I’ll be honest. The assumption always is for me that my parents are going to pay, but I, I, there have been times when I’ve been like, no, actually I would like to, you know, pick up the

[00:29:33] Brett: Yeah. Well, and that’s your, that’s your option. That’s always an option. Um, but it’s never an assumption. And I think that’s for my parents. I think that’s a familial thing. I imagine when they go out with their peers, they’re not just assuming they’re picking up the check. Like they pick up the check for family, but I translated it in my brain to like whoever makes the invitation [00:30:00] And I don’t think that’s true, uh, for anybody.

[00:30:05] Brett: I don’t think that’s even true for my parents who taught me this. Like, we invited you out for dinner, so we’re buying you dinner. Um, I, I’m working, I’m working through some stuff.

[00:30:16] Jay: I, I can’t imagine, like, I think the last three times I’ve gone to dinner with my parents, I’ve picked up the check. But again, I know a lot of that is like, They are very content with eating the exact same meal every single day. Like, they’re like, we’ve budgeted for this. It’s pork chops and rice today.

[00:30:35] Jay: It’ll probably be pork chops and rice tomorrow. Like, so for me, it’s like, if I don’t want to eat the same thing, I’ve got to be like, hey, let’s go here, my treat. Like, I’m more than happy to

[00:30:46] Brett: to, to be fair, my parents idea of eating out is like Perkins or the Green

[00:30:51] Jay: Yeah.

[00:30:52] Brett: and like the check is never more than 80 for like a party of four, so

[00:30:58] Jay: Yeah.[00:31:00]

[00:31:00] Brett: It’s a different story than going out to an actually good restaurant

[00:31:04] Christina: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, but my parents are Bunch is a little bit more than that, but it is a similar thing. Like, it’ll be like, you know, like a chain thing unless it’s like a birthday or, you know, like a special occasion. And then even if it’s like their birthday. They always pay, which, you know, weird, but like,

[00:31:22] Brett: It’s my birthday I get to pay for everyone’s dinner.

[00:31:25] Christina: Okay, but you know what?

[00:31:26] Christina: This year I took my mom to Las Vegas for a week to see Adele, and I paid out the ass for Taylor Swift era’s tour ticket. So honestly, at this point,

[00:31:35] Brett: you can pick up your own meal if you want to.

[00:31:39] Christina: for this year, absolutely. For this year, I’m like, I’m like, you know what? I’m good.

[00:31:43] Jay: that’s a good rule of thumb too. Like, if, if you’ve been paid for. Substantially, like, make the effort to cover it once or twice, like.

[00:31:55] Brett: yeah.

[00:31:56] Jay: Even if it’s like, yo, let’s go to Burger King, my treat, like [00:32:00] just, just the act of being like, Hey, you, you really hooked me up

[00:32:04] Brett: You, you spent ten grand on me, I can spend fifty bucks on you,

[00:32:08] Christina: Totally. But I think that actually goes back to like the first thing you were talking about, Brett, which is just I think just showing like the whole reason I think a lot of us do these things is because we want to show that we care and we want to show gratitude. Like I’m sure for some people it is a flex.

[00:32:19] Christina: But I don’t get that’s not the sense with you. Like that’s not the sense

[00:32:22] Brett: And that’s not the sense I’ve ever gotten when someone picks up my check. It has

[00:32:27] Jay: don’t hang out with

[00:32:27] Brett: it has never felt like a flex to me.

[00:32:30] Christina: No, I mean, I’ve only had that in a couple of instances, and it’s been when, like, it’s been like a really rich guy. I remember one time I went to, uh, one of Wiley Dufresne’s, uh, restaurants, uh, WD 50, which I don’t even think exists anymore, but, um, in, in New York City, and, um, it was like a 400 prefix thing per person before Uh, Wine.

[00:32:49] Christina: And we had the wine tasting too. And, um, and Grant’s boss at the time, like, picked up the whole thing. And that was an understood thing, because again, like, if you’re going someplace where you’re talking about [00:33:00] probably, it was probably 6. 50 per person before, um, tip, you know, that’s a different sort of thing.

[00:33:06] Christina: Like, I, although I have, I have been invited to go to French Laundry with people before, and they said, normally, you know, we would pay, but, you know, this is a, a special, more expensive menu, so. If you would like to come, you know, like with the, and I’m like, well, yeah, it’s French Laundry. I would not assume that you would pay for me in this context, but it, but in the, the WD 50 situation, it was a flex for sure.

[00:33:28] Christina: And I absolutely accepted it. I was like, you can flex all you want. Thank you very much for the very expensive, you know, meal. Um, and, and in presentation, like that is, that is fine. Like you can absolutely. Be, uh, you know, showing off that you are a rich asshole. Like that is completely fine with me.

[00:33:45] Brett: What does WD 50 mean? Is that 10 better than WD 40?

[00:33:50] Christina: So the guy’s name, the chef’s name is Wiley Dufresne. And so I think that it was just kind of like a play on like,

[00:33:56] Brett: Dufresne, sure.

[00:33:57] Christina: so it is a, uh, molecular [00:34:00] gastronomy is the sort of

[00:34:00] Brett: yeah, okay, yep.

[00:34:03] Christina: So, so the whole, and then I think, naming after a chemical thing, actually it was a pretty great restaurant name. It was a good restaurant too.

[00:34:08] Christina: I don’t, like I said, I don’t know if it still exists, but, um, it was a, it was a really good restaurant. But that was one of the more expensive meals, um, I’ve, uh, I’ve ever been to. No, it does not exist anymore. It closed, um, in, uh, uh, 2014. So shit. Yeah. Well, it, it, no, it was open for 11 years.

[00:34:26] Brett: Alright, alright, that’s a good run. That’s a good run.

[00:34:30] Jay: Brett, I have a question about the second thing you were, you were talking about with just kind of different. Not friend groups, but I would say maybe like friend types. Like, do you hang out with a lot of neurodivergent

[00:34:41] Brett: Oh, 100%. Like, I don’t hang out with neurotypicals at all.

[00:34:46] Jay: I, I wonder how much of a problem this actually is for the other, like the person in the conversation, because I’ve hung out with both you and Elle at the same time, and I am completely able to track [00:35:00] both the, both of the conversations, including the inserted dad jokes and just keep going without a step being missed.

[00:35:07] Brett: So, The, yeah, um, the difference is when we hang out with you, it’s been in a situation where we were, where we will, we were all kind of already comfortable with each other. Um, and we had certain understandings in place about each other’s personalities. Um, the situations I’m talking about are party situations where you’re meeting people you’ve never talked to before.

[00:35:34] Brett: You’re creating those first impressions, um, which. For me, first impression is like, I’m going to lay everything on the table. And if you can’t deal with it, we’re going to move on. And for Elle, it’s like, let’s feel this out. Let’s let’s discover each other’s like special interests. Let’s dive deep on things we share.

[00:35:55] Brett: And for me, it’s just like, I’m going to spill my guts. And if you don’t [00:36:00] like it, you can leave and I’ll move on to the next person. Uh, it’s a different situation than one where there’s already a mutual respect and kind of a, like an acceptance.

[00:36:14] Jay: Yeah,

[00:36:14] Christina: Well, it also seems like this is a thing that might not bother the people that you are with, but this is just a thing that, that really bothers Elle. And so that, that, which, which is fair. Right.

[00:36:24] Jay: I get that. Yeah. Like Brit.

[00:36:26] Christina: that’s the case where it’s just like, it’s like people you’re with might not even be bothered by it.

[00:36:29] Christina: Maybe they, they will be kind of like, you know,

[00:36:32] Brett: Honestly, okay, to be fair, if I thought people I was talking to were bothered by a random dad joke, I wouldn’t tell it. Like, I have some, I have some inhibitions where if I don’t feel like something is appropriate, if I feel like people will react badly to it, I’m not gonna do it. Like, these are situations where I think it’s appropriate.

[00:36:57] Brett: Um, but they, it offends. L. [00:37:00] It like breaks L’s concentration more than anything.

[00:37:03] Christina: I was going to say, that’s, that’s honestly, that’s the real thing, right? Like it’s, it’s not so much about like what the, what, what it’s doing for the other people, cause yeah, you, you can have a read on whether it’s an appropriate time to insert something like that or not. But it’s the fact that, yeah, with her, it’s taking her out of it.

[00:37:17] Christina: It’s making her, you know, like it’s changing, you know, whatever her, you know, concentration level or, or her feel on the conversation was, and it’s, it’s disrupting that, which totally fair. That’s, I think that you’ve come up with a good solution, which is just at a party when you’re meeting people, don’t meet them at the same time.

[00:37:33] Brett: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[00:37:36] Jay: This is so fascinating. Like Brittany and I are so different, like my wife Brittany, um, I talk all the time. I don’t shut up. She never talks. So we have like the exact opposite problem where people who are meeting us for the first time either think that I’m super talkative or that I’m like. speaking for her, or the, or the, or the worst is [00:38:00] like, oh, well, she doesn’t like us because she didn’t say anything.

[00:38:02] Jay: It’s like, no, she just doesn’t talk to like anyone. Um, so if we want the conversation to continue, I, I pick up on that and like, I just speak. Um, but it’s, I would be I’d be interested to understand more, like, the feeling of like, hey, we both have things that we want to talk about, but we’re, we’re bumping into each other in the process.

[00:38:30] Brett: yeah. It’s like, I honestly, in a party situation, I don’t want to talk about anything. Like I keep everything very surface level. When I’m first meeting someone, I’m testing the waters.

[00:38:44] Christina: It’s a vibe check.

[00:38:46] Brett: it’s a what?

[00:38:47] Christina: It’s a vibe check.

[00:38:48] Brett: Oh, yeah. So vibe check. Yeah, it is totally. And, and Elle is like, let me find the one common interest we have and like, dig into that.

[00:38:58] Brett: And I’m [00:39:00] like, let’s find out how you react to

[00:39:03] Christina: Right,

[00:39:04] Brett: offensive jokes or stupid jokes.

[00:39:07] Christina: right. Do I want to actually talk to you enough to even find out if I want to

[00:39:11] Brett: Right.

[00:39:12] Christina: Yeah, that’s, that’s how I am at some place. Like, hey, well, I mean, I’m like you, you, Jay, like I’m a talkative person and I’ll talk to anybody about anything, like, you know. It’s actually weird for me when I’m in a situation where I’m with someone who I cannot get To talk back at all.

[00:39:27] Christina: And I’m not talking about quiet people, because that I can deal with. But I mean people who like, will just like, not give you anything at all. And you’re just like, okay, so we’re just gonna sit here in silence. Like that’s, and I can do that. But that’s, that’s weird and rare for me. I can usually get almost anybody to talk

[00:39:44] Brett: Right. Yeah. When I meet a quiet person, that’s like a challenge. I’m like, I’m like, I get you. Like, I, I, I understand your social anxiety. I understand what you’re going through right now. I’m gonna. I’m gonna break your shell, and we’re gonna [00:40:00] find, we’re gonna find a common thing that’s gonna bring you out of your shell.

[00:40:03] Brett: That’s like a challenge to me, and I won’t, I’m not, I don’t like, I’m not overbearing. I’m not gonna like, you must talk to me, or, or you have failed. Like, it’s like, I’m just gonna test the waters, I’m gonna keep trying things to kind of crack your shell, and see if we can like, bring you out, And like, that’s, that’s fun for me.

[00:40:24] Brett: Like, I enjoy that.

[00:40:25] Christina: No, I do too. I do too. Like, I think that that was the only, sorority rush was such always like a complete bullshit and like nightmarish week and whole situation and the whole thing is dumb. But the one part of that that I did enjoy was like, you have to have. 10, 000 conversations with random girls, you know, for like five days straight as you’re trying to kind of get to know them more and figure out like, who will you, you know, you know, present a bid to and who will you, you know, not and all this bullshit.

[00:40:54] Christina: And so you have to, you’re faced sometimes with really awkward… Like conversations [00:41:00] and trying to get people to talk and get out of their shell. And this, this girl who wound up being my little sister in my sorority and like somebody who I loved deeply, I met her and I could not get her to talk to me. And it was the most awkward.

[00:41:12] Christina: And like, I felt so failed and I was like, what the hell? But she kept putting us at the top of her bid list, like every single day. And we came back and wound up like, not only did she accept, like. I was the one that she liked the most. Like, she wanted me as her big sister. And then we, we wound up getting, I invited her over to my house, um, once she became a Pledge.

[00:41:31] Christina: And I got all the Pledges drunk, um, and then we went out to a club. And, um, cause that’s what I, that’s how I, like, make friends. Is, I’m just like, we’re gonna get fucked up. And we’re gonna, like, Go. Like, you know, and then like, like, you’re making the freshmen do really stupid shit, you know, which like, like, they’re always like, Oh, no, you can’t, you know, tell the pledges to drink.

[00:41:50] Christina: I’m like, yeah, you can. Um, I can absolutely tell you, I will absolutely peer pressure you into getting fucked up 100%. Um, and [00:42:00] I have zero regrets about that. But like, she, we you. She wound up really liking me, and like, once, like, I, her ambitions, like, like, her, um, guard was down a little bit, like, she was a completely different person, and I just realized, okay, she just really has to take things in, and, you know, wouldn’t put anything out there, but once she felt comfortable around me, then, like, she’d never shut up, and it was great, but it’s just, I always, I always try to, like, remember that to myself, because I thought that it was the most awkward, like, You know, um, like a warmed conversation, that’s what we would call them, warmed conversations.

[00:42:33] Christina: I thought it was like the most awkward thing I’d ever had in my entire life. I was like, that girl hated me, this was awful, like I have never in my life had anybody just not respond. And, you know, I was pulling out all my tricks, nothing. And… Ended up being, okay, that was just a misread because, and I’m sure that she’s neurodivergent, um, but like, that was just, at the time I didn’t know that.

[00:42:55] Christina: I was like, okay, that’s just, you know, once I got to know her, I was like, okay, no, she just really takes [00:43:00] people in first and then, you know,

[00:43:03] Brett: Here’s my question that’s gonna make this okay for me.

[00:43:06] Christina: yeah.

[00:43:07] Brett: Did you protect a fucked up pledge? If you got them fucked up, did

[00:43:11] Christina: Oh, yeah.

[00:43:12] Brett: for them?

[00:43:13] Jay: Yeah.

[00:43:13] Christina: thousand percent. Without a doubt. Always. Yeah.

[00:43:17] Brett: You didn’t just dump them at the club and

[00:43:20] Christina: Are you kidding me? No way. No no no no no no no no no. Absolutely not.

[00:43:23] Brett: That was my assumption. I just needed it stated clearly.

[00:43:28] Christina: No. Absolutely not. No, especially if like, if they’re younger, they’re the pledge, like, even if they’re older, like, if they’re the pledge, no, you protect them and you make sure that they’re not gonna go home with somebody and that like, nobody’s Yeah, no no no no. Absolutely not. Like, no matter how fucked up I would get, like, you make sure that you’re not as fu you’re not too fucked up to like, you know,

[00:43:46] Brett: All

[00:43:46] Christina: protect Yeah.

[00:43:47] Christina: One thousand

[00:43:48] Brett: I just had to check.

[00:43:50] Christina: No, no, no. I mean, good, good, good, good, good check. Good check, but no. Under no circumstances would I ever. Now, if I was with a, a, a sister, and, and we [00:44:00] were getting fucked up, um, no, I, I’m not gonna, like, necessarily look out for her the same way, because now, like, we’re, we’re on the same playing field, and if we both decided to get fucked up together, like, it’s not really my fault if you decided to fuck a guy in the bathroom.

[00:44:13] Christina: Like, that’s kind of on you. But, like, if, if it’s a pledge to you, I, like, Was basically, you know, like peer pressuring into, you know, doing multiple shots before we got in the, in the taxi or whoever was, you know, um, driving us his car, you know, to go to the club. Yes, of course, I’m going to make sure that she’s completely okay.

[00:44:32] Christina: Yeah,

[00:44:33] Brett: So Christina, how’s your mental health? We’re like 43

[00:44:37] Christina: I know.

[00:44:37] Brett: and we’re still on mental health

[00:44:39] Still on mental health

[00:44:39] Christina: I know. I know. Um, okay, so it’s, it’s, it’s good and it’s bad. Um, so the good news is, is that, uh, I’m not really feeling depressed anymore, which is great. The bad news is, is that the medicine, which I was really hopeful about. Not going to work at all. So today is actually my second day being off of it completely.

[00:44:59] Christina: Um, so [00:45:00] far the withdrawal has not been super bad, which is good. Um, I had a little bit yesterday, but this is one that my doctor says does not have a big withdrawal thing. He was like, yeah, you can just go off of it. Like I’d been taking it twice a day. I dropped down to once a day, um, because I, I had to get off of it and, and, um, I didn’t have a call with him for like another, you know, like week.

[00:45:19] Christina: And so, um, uh, and he was like. Um, I was like, so I was like, I’ve been on it, you know, taking it to once a day. I was like, you know, should I cut it in half? What I do? He’s like, no, you can just go off of it. So the long and the short of it is, although the depression was gone, um, and it was no longer giving me that initial side effect I had where I felt high without the euphoria.

[00:45:41] Christina: Then it was going into this thing where I could just like. Read an article or be focused on something and be in it for like five or six hours and have no Level of urgency to actually get anything done that I needed to get done Like at all so it wouldn’t matter like how important I had a deadline or like you have to you [00:46:00] know Do something else or you need to book your travel or you need to brush your teeth or whatever Like I just would have absolutely no feeling of urgency to do anything at all and just continue focusing on whatever I was doing So it wasn’t like I was completely zoned out because I would actually be you know sometimes doing things and sometimes Occasionally productive things, but that sense of like, you know, that thing in the back of your mind that’s like, No, you need to do this so that you can, you know, function as a human.

[00:46:24] Christina: Right, it wasn’t even hyper focused though. It was just more like, I didn’t care. Like, I would know that there were consequences to my actions. And that this was bad and that these were going to be bad things and that would maybe bring a little bit of anxiety in me, but not enough to actually get me to actually do those things.

[00:46:42] Christina: So it was fucked up, right? And then I, and I explained this to my doctor and, and he was like, well, that’s not great. I’m like, no, that’s going to get me fired. Like that’s going to, this is the sort of thing that will get me no longer employed. So I cannot be on this. And, um, I think that he was [00:47:00] really kind of scrambling to try to find some way to salvage it.

[00:47:03] Christina: Well, maybe we add another drug into it and this and that. And I was like, you know what? I think we need to just call this and say that this was a good experiment, but this didn’t work because I don’t have time. It’s so busy right now with universe and stuff. Like I genuinely don’t have time. To fuck around with this right now.

[00:47:16] Brett: time.

[00:47:17] Christina: And, and so, um, I’m only going to be on Dexedrine now, going forward. We’re going to figure out what my baseline is, and then we’re going to maybe look at some other things, but I would need to figure out kind of like what my baseline place is. And this will be the first time that I’ve only been on Dexedrine in like six or seven years.

[00:47:34] Christina: And so, it’ll be a good time. I, I A number of years ago I was stupid and, and ghosted my shrink, um, who was still my current shrink and like went off of all my meds cold turkey, which was a dumb ass thing to do. Um, and that lasted like a year and a half or so. Um, but that has been, um, Like, like I said, it’s been close to seven years now that like I’ve been back with him.

[00:47:56] Christina: So this will be the first time, um, in a really long [00:48:00] time that the only thing I’ll be on is dexedrine. And so it’ll be a good time, I think, to evaluate where things are and then we can go from there. And then I’m, I’m at, I’ve, as we kind of talked about, um, a few podcasts ago, I’m at the point where if I feel like if I’m trying other medicines, if I’m going through the same.

[00:48:19] Christina: Issues that I went through this time, then if I have to take, like, medical leave or something, I’m gonna do that, because I, I can’t… I can’t risk like my, my career, you know, um, and that’s, that’s been a hard thing in some ways to kind of come to terms with, but that’s also, I think, been like the most mature thing that I can, you know, an adult thing I can do about it is to say like, okay, don’t be afraid if there’s going to be a job for you when you get back, don’t like have those things going through your head.

[00:48:49] Christina: Do the right thing. Prioritize your mental health. Prioritize getting, you know, the right thing going on. Um, but I’m hopeful that, you know, we’ll figure out where things are. I’m also hopeful that maybe, [00:49:00] even if this medicine ultimately didn’t work, if it got me out of the massive depression I was in, and, and I, I don’t anticipate that I’m going to fall back into one because I’m not bipolar and, and that typically doesn’t happen.

[00:49:11] Christina: That if, if it got me out of that, then, then maybe that’ll be… Uh, and then, you know, have time to start looking at, you know, other, um, alternatives because of, you know, uh, the reason I’ve been on something, um, consistently is been because like my doctor has been afraid, like because of how bad my, my depressions have been, especially when I was younger.

[00:49:34] Christina: You know, it would be, it would be something I would have to be on like almost like as a maintenance and like as a preventative thing as much as anything else. Um, and, and I think that’s fair. Um, so it’s probably not a long term solution, but I think that I at least have some time to, uh. You know, not be drugged out and not be, like, horrifically depressed and then figure things out.

[00:49:59] Christina: So hopefully [00:50:00] things are on the upswing.

[00:50:01] Brett: All right. How much do you know about disability protections in our line of work?

[00:50:07] Christina: I don’t.

[00:50:09] Brett: I don’t either. Like when I, when I, uh, filled out my, uh, like onboarding stuff for Oracle, I, I said, I have a disability and they didn’t, they didn’t specify, like they listed what qualifies as a disability, but they didn’t make you say which one.

[00:50:29] Christina: Right, exactly, because I can’t.

[00:50:31] Brett: And then Moom. In the first three out of like six managers I’ve had now, I was, I clearly stated like, here are, here, here’s my disability. Here’s what to look out for. Here’s why I got like a month’s worth of work done last weekend. And here’s why I am going to be offline for the next two weeks. Um, and, and they were accepting of that and they, but it wasn’t at a corporate [00:51:00] level.

[00:51:00] Brett: Um. And since, like, I’ve been through, like, manager upheaval for the last six months, like, I’m on my third manager in six months, and I haven’t had that, like, one on one discussion to, like, let them know where I’m at, and I, I’m always curious if, if I hit, like, a period of depression, just as an example, that takes me offline for a while.

[00:51:28] Brett: A couple weeks or more. Um, do I have any protection by law?

[00:51:35] Christina: Um, I think that it depends. I mean, I think the thing is, is that, again, this is usually what disability insurance is for, which, you know, companies will offer. And, like, they can’t fire you. If you let them know that this is like a disabled, like a thing, but if you pass a certain number of days that you are off, uh, I do know that, uh, at most places, and this is covered by law, it will go from, you know, sick leave, whatever, to [00:52:00] now you actually have to go on disability leave.

[00:52:03] Christina: And, and, and, and, and that’s it. And the number of those things, that’s going to depend on, on where you work. Um, but, um, There is a certain point, a certain number of hours where it does, it switches, um, and, and you have to, uh, you know, go on, take your disability leave or whatever.

[00:52:21] Jay: Yeah. That was my, the talk that I gave a few times last year was like dealing with, Hey, I have ADHD. What would I have? What would I have told myself? How would I have navigated this process? Um, as I was getting hired and I mean, again, like they can’t force you to tell them the ADA, uh, American Disabilities Act, um, the way that they define it as a disability is anything that requires some level of assistance to do your job.

[00:52:53] Jay: So if you do disclose it and you can say like, Hey,

[00:52:56] Christina: Mm hmm.

[00:52:57] Jay: I do need assistance, like regular [00:53:00] therapy appointments, talking to a professional, certain equipment things, if you’ve specified that you need those things and they ignored them and then. terminated your employment agreement because of the things that you specified, then potentially they could be liable.

[00:53:18] Jay: But a lot of that is if you have disclosed officially, probably with even including like HR, um, which again, I understand that there’s always that like, One, I don’t work for HR. You should talk to your HR before you go and like, listen to me just spouting off, but in the process of preparing for this, I talked to a few folks who are HR professionals and they all basically said, if you tell your boss, if you tell HR and you specify, these are the things that help me to do my job better, that does provide at least some level of initial protection for you.

[00:53:56] Jay: But the, the problem is, is they [00:54:00] only have to. Accommodate you based on the needs of the role. So if they say, we can’t, we can’t meet those needs, and you know, the job wouldn’t be the same if we met those needs, they have to show proof, but so do you.

[00:54:16] Brett: Sure.

[00:54:17] Jay: you know, how much of a, of a battle with, and how many lawyers does your company have?

[00:54:21] Jay: It’s kind of the challenge there.

[00:54:24] Brett: Yeah. Alright. Well, that’s good info for the listeners.

[00:54:29] Christina: Yeah, uh, yeah, and, and I’ll say too, one of the, one of the things is, is that just like if you go on any sort of leave, like if your job is eliminated for, Like some reason that they’re saying is, is not associated with your work or anything like that, but just there was a reorganization and this job no longer exists.

[00:54:45] Christina: Then again, like you need to talk to an employment lawyer at that point, but, but they, they, they can do that. And, and that’s not, that’s not a thing that unfortunately, just like if you go on, you know, maternity or paternity leave, and when you come back, your job is not there. That’s a real thing that [00:55:00] happens.

[00:55:00] Christina: And, and there’s not a lot of recourse you have over that, unfortunately.

[00:55:04] Brett: And that makes sense. I mean, from, if I were a corporation, I, I don’t, I don’t support the idea of finding back roads to eliminate somebody, uh, to eliminate their position, but if honestly, I don’t support the You need to reorg and that position no longer exists. You shouldn’t be held responsible because that person had a disability.

[00:55:30] Brett: Um, just from a very capitalist perspective, um, it makes sense that you can eliminate a position if you want to. You just can’t fire someone specifically for their disability.

[00:55:44] Christina: Right, right. The only thing you’ve got to be careful with in that is that unfortunately there are, um, you know, not, um, uncommon situations where people will use that as an excuse to get rid of someone who might actually have a dis you know, because they have a disability [00:56:00] or some other thing,

[00:56:00] Brett: Yeah. And I don’t support that.

[00:56:02] Christina: No, no, I know you don’t.

[00:56:03] Christina: I know you don’t. I’m just saying that that, that’s the thing is that they can use that sometimes as an excuse to really get rid of people they want to get rid of, but you know, um, uh, and every state is different. California is obviously going to be significantly better than any other state when it comes to employment rules.

[00:56:16] Christina: New York would then be, um, next best after that. Um, but yeah, um, uh, there are like federal rules, but, you know, our federal government doesn’t really give a shit. Um, so, you know, check with those things, check with your employment lawyers. But I don’t know in terms of like our specific professions, like, that has been a concern of mine in some senses.

[00:56:36] Christina: Just it’s like, okay, well, am I gonna, you know, like, that’s always been my fear about taking any sort of leave is… You know, will, will there be a job when I get back, you know, um, and I, I guess I’ve, I’ve kind of gotten over that to the point where I’m like, well, even if there’s not, you’ve got to do the right thing, you know, for your, for your health first, which as I said, that’s a new thing for me, uh, because historically I would not [00:57:00] prioritize my health.

[00:57:01] Brett: Sure.

[00:57:02] Christina: I would not prioritize anything over my career,

[00:57:04] Brett: that’s, that’s an amazing development because you have, you have potential, like you could work for almost any company, same with Jay. I feel like I have a certain amount of potential. Um, we can. We can prioritize, we can prioritize our health, we can prioritize our well being over some cushy corporate job and know that we’re going to land on our feet.

[00:57:31] Brett: Not everybody has that, uh, that security. Whether, I think a lot of people have that security and don’t accept it about themselves. Like, me for one. Like, I feel like if I lost my job, I’m fucked. Uh, even though, like, I think you would, you would both say, I have options.

[00:57:55] Christina: No, see, I was gonna say, I think a lot of us have that same feeling where, like, [00:58:00] other people would tell us what you’re telling us, and then we would tell you the same thing that we’re telling you, or, you know, that you’re telling us. Um, but internally, we’re like, Oh, no. I’m fucked. Like, there’s no way I’ll ever get hired again.

[00:58:11] Christina: And I think it’s especially hard, um, doing the sorts of things that we do, because a lot of times we are some of the first roles eliminated. Uh, and we see that, and we don’t necessarily take stock of our own situations and go, Okay, well… Our situations might be a little bit different than, you know, some of our peers, not, not to say they always are, but you know, we might not give ourselves the credit that we, we should give ourselves

[00:58:33] Brett: this brings me back, uh, so at the beginning, Jay was like, nobody knows how to define DevRel, and I was talking with coworkers, Victor and Aaron, who have both been on this show, um, About how there’s also no metric for determining our effectiveness and success. Um, like we can say the [00:59:00] company’s stock value increased and sure.

[00:59:03] Brett: We may have been a part of that, or we may not have, um, like our roles are very hard to quantify and therefore our jobs are always insecure,

[00:59:15] Christina: No, totally. I mean, and, and there are ways that you can do OKRs and that you can get metrics out of it. And, and I’ve had various success in trying to identify those things on various teams I’ve been on, but you’re right to actually show the real value. A lot of it is a, is a complete hedge and is complete bullshit.

[00:59:29] Christina: And so my. What my answer to that has always been, okay, um, you’re right. You, we don’t have traditional metrics and you can’t do traditional, um, things that you could do in a lot of other roles to show, you know, this number of, you know, bugs was quashed and, and quality software quality has increased this amount and we’ve shipped this many releases and this and that, like, those are not things that you can do what you can do.

[00:59:51] Christina: And, and, and again, it’s, it’s going to be nebulous and it’s going to be unofficial because. The role is, and because a lot of these things are impossible to [01:00:00] really measure, but that means to me, I think, the way that you show your value is that you tell a really good fucking story. And you go out of your way to show your value that way by saying, these are the sorts of engagements that we’ve had, and these have been direct things we can draw from that, right?

[01:00:14] Christina: Because in some cases you can say, hey, like, you know, I had an engagement with this customer, and then they increased their spend by this much, right? You don’t always have that, but you can. You can show No, not always, but I’m saying that you do have that occasionally, and when you have those things, you have to use that as your, whether that, whether that result was because of you or not, right?

[01:00:33] Christina: Like, you have to, like, almost take credit for that, right? And so, you know, okay, you know, we had this many more people, you know, at our, our conference, or we grew our social media followings by this amount, or we had this many engagements, or whatever the case may be, you have to find these things that are not always attributable to what you did.

[01:00:50] Christina: But find a way to then fucking tell that story to show this is the value we have. Um, but, but that’s… Way easier said than done.

[01:00:58] Brett: For my year, [01:01:00] for my year end review, I wrote an article about advanced query parameters in the Oracle OCI, uh, command line tool, which was super niche. Like, I don’t, I don’t know who would be interested in it, but it made it into the top 20 articles on Oracle developers for the year. And I get to claim that and like, that’s a metric.

[01:01:29] Brett: I can say this had, this had enough engagement that it rose to the top, top 20 out of thousands of articles that were published last year. So I. I have Ametric.

[01:01:43] Jay: Christina has has definitely heard me share like the highlight of my career is, as our lawyers would say, I suggested that my work had been plagiarized by major publications and that was just a thing that I was not [01:02:00] mentally prepared for. So yeah, like any, any time that you can be like, yo, this thing happened and while it was good, also look at, look at the direct source from where this came from.

[01:02:13] Jay: But it, it is kind of fun because I, the, the people in this call like match up to this theory that I have for like a really solid DevRel team where you have three aspects. You have a. General hype beast, a flava flav if you will. You have like the super technical like Chuck D type person and then you have like the producer who like makes things palatable and like makes things work.

[01:02:43] Jay: Um,

[01:02:44] Brett: name in Public Enemy?

[01:02:46] Jay: I feel so bad because I don’t

[01:02:48] Brett: Yeah, I can’t remember either. I want, yeah. I can remember NWA’s DJ, but I

[01:02:53] Christina: I mean, uh, Fl Fl Flav, right?

[01:02:55] Brett: No, Flava Flav was the hype man.

[01:02:58] Jay: Yeah, he just shouted.

[01:02:59] Brett: [01:03:00] and Mike D was the MC.

[01:03:02] Jay: Chuck D.

[01:03:02] Brett: Chuck D. Sorry, Chuck D. Oh,

[01:03:04] Christina: Oh, uh, well, I had to look this up. It’s DJ Lord.

[01:03:08] Brett: Org. Wow, I don’t even know that name. He just never,

[01:03:11] Christina: no, no, no, no, no, no, you’re right. No, he didn’t know, because he’s right. Because he he didn’t join until the 40th anniversary. 40th world tour, so that was 99, so he’s not it. So Wikipedia failed me there. Sammy Sam?

[01:03:22] Brett: Yes, that sounds right. Yeah.

[01:03:25] Christina: would that would be correct, okay.

[01:03:27] Jay: but like, good devrel

[01:03:28] Brett: just to finish your metaphor here.

[01:03:31] Jay: yeah, but like, good devrel teams need all three. Like, you can’t just have someone who… Like, I can write a super technical blog post, but then, like, don’t share it with anyone, or don’t get up on stage and have those conversations with people that point back to that blog post.

[01:03:52] Jay: Because, I mean, that’s my problem. Like, I’m in, I’m in the Python community. Python people don’t go to Microsoft. com to learn stuff about Python. [01:04:00] So, like, you have to go where they are. And, and sometimes you just need someone who can get into that room and shout Flava Flav as loud as possible.

[01:04:08] Christina: Bingo.

[01:04:09] Jay: And, I mean, you, you do really need all three.

[01:04:12] Jay: You need someone that can, like, manicure a really tight production, someone who can get super technical, super deep on things, and then someone who literally just shouts Flava Flav. Now go look at that blog post. And exactly, like, and it’s cool that, I think good advocates know kind of where they fit in that model, and then they surround themselves with the other individuals.

[01:04:41] Brett: Yeah.

[01:04:43] Christina: No, I think you’re exactly right. Um, and, uh, yeah. And I, um, I’m also just a side note to close the ones. I’m so glad that you were able to give that talk, um, about, uh, uh, hip hop and the Python community, because when you talked to me about that at a, what was it, it was a scale this year, [01:05:00] like that I was like, yes, I need to see that.

[01:05:02] Christina: So I’m really glad you were able to, to get that talk, uh, written and accepted.

[01:05:05] Jay: The first comment that I heard was like, but for real, can we just stop and talk about Jay’s talk straight fire? I was like, yes, that’s, that’s going on my, uh, my highlight reel.

[01:05:18] Brett: Nice. All right. So we are Over an hour in, and we just finished Mental Health Corner.

[01:05:26] Christina: that’s just the episode. We’re just going to have to go into gratitude. I think.

[01:05:30] Brett: do, do you, okay, how much time do you guys have?

[01:05:35] Christina: I mean, I have time.

[01:05:37] Jay: I have time, I don’t know how much time our listeners have.

[01:05:39] We had to do some Taylor Swift stuff

[01:05:39] Brett: Sure, you know what, if they sat through a DevRel discussion, they’re still with us, I think they deserve to hear Christina’s thoughts on the 1989 re release.

[01:05:53] Christina: Okay. Thank you. I will try to be brief. Alright, so, background. Taylor Swift is re recording all of her [01:06:00] albums, at least the ones that she did for Big Machine. Um, so that’s gonna be her first, uh, six, uh, debut, Fearless, uh, Speak Now, Red, 1989, and Reputation. So far, Fearless, uh, Speak Now, um, Red, and as of this week, 1989, have been re recorded.

[01:06:17] Christina: 1989 being her, her biggest… The commercial selling album, the one that has Blank Space, Style, Shake It Off, uh, Wildest Dreams, New Romantics, and I’m missing a single as Out of the Woods as the singles, uh, you know,

[01:06:33] Brett: A. K. A. her best song, sure.

[01:06:36] Christina: I mean, I, I mean, I would argue

[01:06:38] Brett: Bratz Top Picks.

[01:06:40] Christina: Brett’s top picks, absolutely. I was going to say most people’s top picks.

[01:06:42] Christina: Most people, when you hear Taylor Swift, you are thinking of those songs. Like, at least if you came up, if you became aware of her during her pop era. Um, so this is her biggest album, um, and, and so this is the big one to be re recorded. And it came out on the 9th anniversary of the original release, [01:07:00] which was exciting.

[01:07:01] Christina: And I, I’m going to be honest. The re record of Red… I wasn’t in love with because I thought the mixing was wrong, and I thought the mixing was bad, to be honest, on a lot of tracks. Some tracks I was not at all happy with what happened, some I was fine with. The thing that saved that album for me was that A, we got the 10 minute version of All Too Well, which is the centerpiece and a masterpiece, and we got the short film.

[01:07:26] Christina: And we had some really, really exceptional, um, uh, bonus tracks, uh, or from, from the Vault tracks. And so that… To me, kind of let go of my, uh, I guess, disappointment with the fact that songs like Holy Ground were not mixed well. And, uh, the vocals were great, but were not mixed well. And that means that I will forever be listening to the original versions.

[01:07:46] Christina: And, and Swifties who are like, you can’t listen to the original versions. Go fuck yourself, first of all. I will stream or listen to them as much as I want because I bought them. I bought all of them. And I bought many, many, many, many copies of all of her Taylor’s versions. And I’ve spent [01:08:00] thousands of dollars on her for concert tickets.

[01:08:02] Christina: And fuck off. I will listen to whatever versions I want. And she’s still getting half of the royalties anyway because she’s the songwriter. So… Honestly, she’s a billionaire now. She doesn’t need you to defend her. Moving on. I was hopeful about 1989 because Speak Now, her third album, the re record on that was excellent.

[01:08:21] Christina: The mastering was really good. The vocals were good. There was one lyric change that I’m still not over. But aside from that, like, it was great. Like, Enchanted, which is in my top three songs, I was very concerned that that would not be able to be recreated well because her voice is older now and better.

[01:08:39] Christina: It was brilliant. It was perfect. So I was very hopeful that 1989, like my second favorite Taylor album, depending on the week, was going to be good. Listeners, I regret to inform you that she fucked up. And she, um, if you are not a person who has listened to that album hundreds or thousands of times as I [01:09:00] have, you won’t pick up on all the intricacies of how the fuck up happened.

[01:09:04] Christina: Out of the Woods is fine. Style is not. Style, which is… Also one of my top three songs. The mix is terrible. It is just, if you listen to the two back to back on Spotify or Apple Music, or from your own collections, you will hear that the mix is fucking terrible. And I, my new favorite Twitter account called, uh, TaylorIsALiar, um, which that has been the Which is, that has been their username for a long time.

[01:09:26] Christina: I love this Twitter account. And they were sending out some of the funniest memes about what she did to style. And I was like, I am following you now. And they followed me back because they saw some of my tweets. And I was like, I feel, um, good, uh, that we are like on the same page here. Um, but no, the, the mixing is…

[01:09:45] Christina: Not great on a lot of the tracks, and I’m going to put it to you like this. She, for whatever reason, did not bring back Max Martin and Shellback to produce the album, especially Max Martin. And they co wrote most of the big hits on [01:10:00] the album. Shellback did come back for Red, and he did 22, um, um, uh, We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together, and um, uh, Um, the one with the, anyway, um, I Knew You Were Trouble.

[01:10:15] Christina: He came back and produced those, and he also came back and worked on, um, Wildest Dreams, which was also one of her singles, and that was re recorded and re released earlier because she wanted to sell the sync rights for it. He did not come back on any of the other tracks on Red and Max Martin, or not, uh, excuse me, 1989, and Max Martin has not been involved in either.

[01:10:35] Christina: The rumors are that Taylor, uh, didn’t want to pay Max Martin the money he wanted, and that he wanted You know, maybe like more producing credits than she was willing to give him. I think that was a mistake. Um, uh, that album is every bit as much his as it is hers. And he would not have mixed it the way that it was mixed.

[01:10:53] Christina: That’s all I’m saying. Like you can, I’m not saying he’s the greatest producer or songwriter in music history. I’m not claiming that. I am saying that he [01:11:00] would not have mixed it the way that it was mixed. The Jack Antonoff song sounded better than the Max Martin Shellback songs, but Jack Antonoff then got in his studio and did all of his Jack Antonoff shit and made it like.

[01:11:10] Christina: There are some background things that are good, and there’s some where I’m like, I get what you were doing, dude, because you had no adult supervision and no editor, and you wanted to make these things different and sound better, but I don’t know if this really was additive or not. But it didn’t take away, but the Max Martin tracks The mix is terrible, and so, I’m very, very upset, and uh, I think that she, I think she whiffed it.

[01:11:32] Christina: It’s not gonna matter, this will still, I think it sold over a million copies, uh, which is insane for a re recording. Um, and, and it’s gonna be this monster hit, and she’s gonna now be able to sell the music rights, uh, to all the different, you know, commercials and movies and anything she wants, so she’s gonna be fine.

[01:11:48] Christina: But, um, yeah, no, I regret to inform you, it’s not good, and, and I’m very upset, and that’s, that’s my rant.

[01:11:55] Brett: That was, that was under 10 minutes, and I have to say, I was watching Jay’s [01:12:00] face through the whole thing, and he was fascinated. I don’t think he gives a shit about Taylor Swift. Like, your level of nerdery, your like level of knowledge about this was like, he’s like, oh my god, that’s

[01:12:15] Jay: I, so only because I do want my wife to hear this at some point, I am actually a bigger Miley Cyrus fan than I am a Taylor fan. Um, but my, in my head, I was just like, Hmm, it sounds like Taylor needs to reorg her DevRel team.

[01:12:34] Christina: Yeah, yeah, she does. Also, Taylor, and I love, she does, and here’s the thing, I love Taylor, but I was having this conversation with my friend Shantani about this, because we were all of us, we stayed up late, we were like listening, we were all excited, and then we were like, wait a minute, and some people were like, well, it’s just because it’s different.

[01:12:50] Christina: If you had never heard the originals before, you wouldn’t have any problem with this. You’re probably right. However, the originals do exist, and, and your, your goal is now to convince me to listen to the [01:13:00] new ones, not the, um, old ones, and you failed. Failed. I do like some of the vault tracks, but, like, I’m never gonna listen to these other re recorded versions ever again.

[01:13:09] Brett: I don’t understand how someone with Taylor Swift resources… Would fuck up a mix.

[01:13:15] Christina: It’s hubris. She didn’t think she needed him. And I don’t know how much she cares about… I don’t know. Like, to me, Speak Now was done with a ton of care, and it was almost proof that, like, I feel like that’s maybe, like, her favorite album, secretly. Like, I feel like maybe she loves that one the most. And Red, the whole thing wasn’t fucked up, it was only a couple of tracks.

[01:13:40] Christina: And again, the All Too Well thing was such a big part of that, that it made me think that was the focus. But it makes me wonder, if like, she just doesn’t give that much of a shit about 1989. Like, she knows that her biggest, most successful album, but she’s also kind of like, Well, this set me up for like, a really genuinely awful part of my life, when everybody came after me, after the success of that [01:14:00] album.

[01:14:00] Christina: So maybe she was just kind of like, I just need to get this so that I can sell the sync rights. I don’t really care and I don’t think I need Max Martin because I have Jack Antonoff and I have these other guys and fuck you Max Martin, you want a million dollars, you want, you know, producing credits, I’m not going to give you that.

[01:14:16] Christina: And I think that’s a mistake because I think that, again, every bit as much his album as hers. And… I don’t think he would have let it go out with a mix like that. I’m just saying. Like, maybe he would have. Maybe I’m wrong. But I don’t think he would have let the mix go out sounding the way that it sounded.

[01:14:30] Jay: I wonder if it’s, I wonder if it’s similar to the situation Jay Z had when he became the president of Def Jam. Like a part of the deal of becoming the president was he got rights to all of his tracks that were under them. So getting, getting rights to your masters is like. A super big deal as an artist and for him it was more like I don’t really care about the music.

[01:14:53] Jay: I want my kids to be able to do whatever they want with [01:15:00] the art that I’ve created. And I feel like maybe in Taylor’s case there’s this level of like I don’t really care how it sounds as long as I can say it’s mine.

[01:15:12] Christina: I think that that might be true, but I also think that she does care very much about the stuff. But I think she cares about the originals, right? Like, This is my, this has been my working theory. She is doing everything she can to devalue those original masters, so that she can buy them back for like 150 million.

[01:15:28] Christina: And she’s close to doing that at this point. Because at this point, all of the streaming services will not playlist. Any of the originals, they will only playlist her versions. And that means that the way that the next generation of fans are going to hear these albums, they will never hear the originals.

[01:15:45] Christina: They will only hear the Taylor’s versions. And that also means because she’s the songwriter, the only way that these things can be, um, uh, licensed to, to television or movies. are if they license the Taylor’s version and she will never let those original copies be [01:16:00] licensed. So at some point, the owner of those masters are going to, I think, be faced with a situation where they have to write down, you know, their purchase.

[01:16:08] Christina: And I think she’s just waiting for that to happen. And then the second that happens, she’s going to resell us the originals. Because She loves those, like those she, she did work on, and she did care about, and like, she’s compared them to, like, in many ways, like, you know, like, her scrapbook of, like, growing up, which is true, like, the music videos are literally, like, it’s her childhood and, and early, like, adolescence and, like, early adulthood are those albums, and they are owned by someone else, and that has to be devastating.

[01:16:38] Christina: But with the exception of Speak Now and Fearless to a certain extent, I don’t think she’s put in that much care, at least in the mixing aspect of 1989. The one thing I will say that is better, also sometimes not, because it doesn’t, maybe being better doesn’t matter, her vocals are So much better [01:17:00] in the in the nine years and and it’s it’s one of those things where you hear the power and you’re like Wow, she’s been taking voice lessons and that is actually pretty amazing to hear because you expect it maybe on the earlier albums I didn’t expect to be able to hear that difference Between 1989 and now, because in my mind, 1989 still feels like it was released a couple of years ago.

[01:17:21] Christina: Uh, blame COVID, blame whatever, you know, blame the fact that it is, you know, one of the biggest albums of the last decade, but like, it doesn’t feel like that album is, is, you know, a decade old. But the vocal difference is profound in some cases, and, um, the production just isn’t. So, better vocals, worse production, some decent bonus, uh, vault tracks, but I’m, I’m never going to intentionally stream.

[01:17:46] Christina: The Taylor’s versions. I’m just, I’m just not.

[01:17:49] Brett: Alright.

[01:17:50] Jay: game, if the long game is to

[01:17:52] Brett: Oh, you’re gonna keep this conversation

[01:17:54] Christina: no, no, no, no,

[01:17:55] Jay: I’m genuinely

[01:17:56] Christina: No, no, I love it! I love it! Do it! Do

[01:17:58] Jay: If the, if the long game is [01:18:00] to re release the originals with, with Taylor being the owner. I feel it benefits her to have the sound be just sonically different so that people have a reason to want the originals back.

[01:18:15] Jay: Uh,

[01:18:15] Christina: Yeah, I mean, to be clear, it’s close enough that if, again, if you didn’t know, and most people who are gonna hear this on the radio are not gonna be listening in, like, high end headphones, And you’re not gonna know.

[01:18:24] Jay: people that buy the album, they’re going to be the people that stream it on YouTube or Spotify or Apple Music. The people who are going to buy the album will definitely notice the

[01:18:31] Brett: buys albums?

[01:18:32] Christina: Taylor Swift fans.

[01:18:34] Brett: Okay.

[01:18:34] Christina: Genuinely. Like, she sold, I think she’s gonna do a million pure sales, or close to that, of this album. Most of it in vinyl. Um, and, and, and it’s, yeah, most of it in fucking vinyl

[01:18:44] Jay: Cassettes flying off the shelves.

[01:18:46] Christina: cassettes, yeah, vinyl cassettes and, and different colored CDs. Um, I think she had seven different vinyl colors this time.

[01:18:53] Christina: Um, yes, I bought all of them. Whatever. Um, You know, like, it is what it is. [01:19:00] Yeah, no, but Taylor Swift fans are the ones who buy albums. So, I think you’re right, Jay, like, when she re releases them, who knows what’ll happen on streaming. But, yeah, maybe she wants it slightly different. I just think that, that’s just my personal theory, is that as soon as she can get them cheap enough, she will buy them back.

[01:19:17] Christina: And then re release them to all of us, and make us buy them in, like, a big, huge box set.

[01:19:24] Jay: 200 box

[01:19:24] Christina: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And they will fly off the fucking shelves.

[01:19:29] Brett: should we do some Graptitude?

[01:19:30] Christina: Let’s do it.

[01:19:35] Brett: I, I,

[01:19:36] Christina: thank, thank you, Brett, for indulging me.

[01:19:38] Brett: Honestly, like we could become a Miley Cyrus podcast.

[01:19:43] Christina: actually. We would love that.

[01:19:44] Brett: I’d be down with that. Uh,

[01:19:46] Jay: I’m also, just,

[01:19:48] Brett: when Jay becomes a co host, we’ll, we’ll consider rebranding.

[01:19:53] Jay: I, I, Noah, most talent.

[01:19:57] Christina: Noah’s very good. Noah’s very good. [01:20:00] Yeah.

[01:20:00] Jay: But, but I do, I do love the evolution of Miley just

[01:20:04] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of fascinating,

[01:20:06] Christina: Actually, it’s funny. It was like all, like, me, Brett, and, and, um, and Jeff have all talked about that. Like, we really do love Miley. Um, Noah, I, I kind of agree with you most talent, but she doesn’t have the, she doesn’t have the star appeal. That’s the problem. Like, like, like Miley. Has, like, the it factor.

[01:20:21] Christina: She just does.

[01:20:23] Jay: I feel like it’s mentorship though. Like I, I could imagine in 30 years, Miley is the Dolly Parton of that era.

[01:20:33] Brett: You think

[01:20:34] Jay: And again, that’s, that’s who her mentor is. Like

[01:20:36] Christina: Uh, I don’t know.

[01:20:39] Brett: I don’t think Miley has had a Jolie or a 9 to 5.

[01:20:43] Christina: No,

[01:20:44] Jay: Well, she recorded those, but…

[01:20:45] Christina: she

[01:20:46] Brett: did, she did. And she did a damn good job

[01:20:48] Christina: okay, here,

[01:20:49] Brett: It was, it was spot on.

[01:20:51] Christina: Here’s the thing. I think that, like, God, and it’s a decade old now. My God, I cannot believe this. But, like, We Can’t Stop is, is, [01:21:00] is a fucking, like, nearly perfect pop song.

[01:21:02] Brett: A banger.

[01:21:03] Christina: it is a true banger, um, from bangers. Uh, so, so I, I don’t know if that was intentional or not, Brett, but very good work.

[01:21:11] Christina: Um, I mean, everybody always talks wrecking ball, but like, honestly, the, the song from that album for me is we can’t stop. Like that is the song for me. Um, I mean, wrecking ball is iconic, but we can’t stop. Like, I just, I watched that. I, I just get happy every time I hear that song or watch that music video.

[01:21:26] Christina: Cause I’m like, that actually looks like like a. person who’s like 20 years old’s party, like genuinely, you know, like

[01:21:34] Brett: I’m gonna. In the show notes, I’m gonna drop, um, an acoustic version of Wrecking Ball, a cover that, honestly, like anyone who cares at all, or even if you don’t care, even if you think you hate Miley Cyrus, this acoustic version of Wrecking Ball, You’ll be like, I [01:22:00] gotta admit, that’s a good song.

[01:22:01] Christina: It is. It is. Now, to be fair, she did not write

[01:22:05] Brett: Oh, understood. She, I don’t think she has writing credits on a lot of her stuff,

[01:22:10] Christina: Most of them she doesn’t know. On her last two albums, she does. Um, uh, and she does have a writing credit on We Can’t Stop, but she’s way on the bottom of the list. So that goes that far, but no, Wrecking Ball is, is a Dr. Luke song. So,

[01:22:25] Brett: yeah. But it’s a, it’s a good song and she made it.

[01:22:29] Christina: She made it great.

[01:22:30] Grapptitude

[01:22:30] Brett: All right. All right. Craptitude. Let’s, let’s kick it off with Jay.

[01:22:37] Jay: Um, I, I was conflicted by this. Um, I, I, I work for Microsoft. I’m not telling you that you should spend the money and get an Office 365 license. But I will say that, um, one, if you do, make sure you put in a note somewhere that it was directly because of me. Um, again,

[01:22:57] Brett: Sure, cause that’s the only metric

[01:22:59] Christina: Yeah. Cause[01:23:00]

[01:23:00] Jay: exactly. Exactly. But, but the other side is if you do presentations, consider PowerPoint.

[01:23:08] Jay: Like, there are so many new features, especially if you haven’t touched PowerPoint in like, There’s so many new features like automated transcriptions, things to do like, you know, practice a lot of the stuff that that Apple released in Keynote has been in PowerPoint for a while. Uh, we were talking earlier about like the easiest way to.

[01:23:31] Jay: Build PowerPoints now is literally to start with a white background, black text, put what you want on the screen and then hit the designer button and just let it like wrap your images and move things around and come up with custom icons for them. Like it is absolutely fantastic. And YouTube has me pegged because now whenever I look at YouTube shorts, at least 15 of them in like, Three minutes will be, [01:24:00] here is some PowerPoint hack that, you know, takes you 30 seconds to learn.

[01:24:05] Jay: And I am genuinely having fun nerding out on like, as I’m trying to do more eccentric styled talks, like I’m just nerding out on like, how can I really like add pop and flair to these? And again, it, it sounds corny as hell to be like, yeah, PowerPoint, you should totally check that out. Also Excel, Python, it’s coming.

[01:24:27] Jay: Um, That’s enough promotion for my employer, but like, for real, if you haven’t played around with PowerPoint, just like, open it up and see what’s in there, and like, try to do some really fun stuff with it, like, you can, you can definitely get away with doing something.

[01:24:42] Christina: Yeah.

[01:24:43] Brett: about the toolbar?

[01:24:45] Jay: I don’t even think about the toolbar.

[01:24:47] Christina: Yeah. The ribbon, the ribbon’s like, that’s, I don’t know. I feel like that’s an old conversation at this point. Like I feel like, yeah, because it’s been changed significantly over time and it’s

[01:24:56] Brett: can’t even, I can’t even use it. Like, I, I have to use [01:25:00] PowerPoint for work, and I have been impressed with the designer and transcription and stuff like that, but it loads up, and I get that toolbar overjammed with things that change as soon as

[01:25:15] Jay: no.

[01:25:16] Brett: as soon

[01:25:17] Jay: Type in help and go directly to what you’re looking for.

[01:25:19] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say that’s what I do.

[01:25:22] Jay: Or look for the, if you can set up panes, like, the arrangement. The thing that completely morphs your window and puts everything in a bunch of different rows and you can slide them back and forth, that’s flashy and all, but like, if you go to the actual arrangement, like selector, it’s literally just a list that you can drag up and down.

[01:25:41] Jay: And like, that’s the easiest way to select specific assets, like on a particular slide. So

[01:25:47] Christina: Yeah, and I would say actually in that regard I think it’s like better than, than, than Keynote, um, you know, at this point, uh, because, you know, Keynote’s inspector or whatnot, like, it’s just, I, I agree, like, seeing that pane and seeing, like, how it visually shows off how that stuff [01:26:00] works is really nice. Um, Control Command U, Brett, uh, just remember that, that’ll immediately get you to just, like, typing in, like, the search bar, and yeah, I, I would agree with, with Jay, I usually just search for what I wanna do rather than fucking with any of the…

[01:26:12] Christina: The menus.

[01:26:13] Brett: Control command U. All right. That’s

[01:26:15] Christina: But, and I’m gonna plus one you because I haven’t, I’ve been afraid to share this, um, publicly, but yeah, PowerPoint at this point, it’s kind of like my usual go to if I’m not doing my thing in like a markdown situation. Um, uh, sorry Google Slides and, and sorry Keynote, but I feel like Keynote, which was the greatest app for…

[01:26:34] Christina: Years and years and years has basically just become abandonware and Apple is like completely in keeping the lights on mode with all of, you know, their office products and, uh, yeah, like the transcript stuff and the designer stuff alone, not to mention the fact that it’s more compatible with everything at this point means that like, I, I don’t really use Keynote anymore.

[01:26:56] Brett: true. Pages, keynote numbers have not [01:27:00] gotten, they haven’t been part of a keynote address for as long as I can remember. They are keeping the lights on. You’re right. You’re right.

[01:27:12] Jay: PowerPoint, that’s me.

[01:27:15] Brett: All right. Christina, tell us what you got.

[01:27:17] Christina: All right, so my pick is going to be Keyboard Maestro 11, which came out, uh, I think like last week. And, uh, this is just like, this is an app that we’ve talked about before. Um, I love it. I, um, really, really, um, Like it’s one of these apps that I don’t use as much as I could, but that every time I jump into it just a little bit, I realize how much I like it.

[01:27:37] Christina: And there are a lot of different automation apps out there. Um, you know, there, there’s a better touch tool and, and obviously you can do some similar things with things like text expander, but I really love the interface and the stability of, um, Keyboard Maestro. And so I oftentimes use. All three of those for different things.

[01:27:54] Christina: But, um, if you’re somebody who, you know, wants to have a really good way of automating stuff or, or [01:28:00] doing very specific things with keystrokes, I love, love, love Keyboard Maestro and the new version includes a CLI. Which is very exciting. So now you can just run Keyboard Maestro, um, in your command line to run, um, some of your automations, which I think is really cool.

[01:28:17] Christina: And, uh, so, um, uh, congrats to them for, you know, uh, continuing to put out a really, really good app. And, and this was one of those things I got the email about my upgrade and I was like, that is absolutely, I was like, this is the easiest, like, 18 dollars or whatever that I could spend. Yeah, totally. So, Keyword Meister is my pick.

[01:28:36] Brett: not just for, for keystrokes, like you can, you can find so many different things as triggers and keyboard maestro, um, like MIDI keys, for example, like you can have, you can have a chord on your, on your MIDI keyboard next to your desk, launch an app.

[01:28:54] Christina: yeah, you can use it with your, uh, with your, with your stream deck.

[01:28:57] Jay: Yep.

[01:28:58] Brett: Yep. All kinds of crazy [01:29:00] stuff.

[01:29:00] Brett: Um, I think,

[01:29:02] Jay: Bunch.

[01:29:03] Brett: yep. Yep. I, I do actually. I use

[01:29:07] Jay: I think I have a

[01:29:08] Brett: my Stream Deck to trigger Keyboard Maestro to trigger Bunch. Um, but it’s, uh, the, the, when Shortcuts came out, And they included a command line utility for running shortcuts. I feel like that prompted some of the automation, all, some of the like venerated automation apps to like come up with a command line utility, which I think has been a good step forward because a lot of us, a lot of us who are capable of creating complex keyboard maestro actions. Probably want to call it from the command line, um, you know, or through a script. And so I think that’s a, a very wise addition.

[01:29:57] Jay: Oh, yeah, I, I have [01:30:00] definitely written a video about using Keyboard Maestro to launch other automation tools like Bunch. Also, shout out to like, two years ago, Hair, oh my goodness, that was, that was a phase. Uh,

[01:30:16] Brett: All right. So my pick for the week, here we are. We’re an hour and a half in, this is going to be, this is a

[01:30:23] Jay: stop bringing attention to it, they won’t notice.

[01:30:25] Brett: They’ll never notice. Cause this has been so riveting that no one has paid attention to the progress of time. Um, I. I’m gonna pick ImageMagick, and, uh, I had originally had, uh, Things vs.

[01:30:41] Brett: OmniFocus on my list here, but then we started talking about how I’ve automated my, uh, giveaway posts on my blog and every one of those posts starts with a picture of a robot holding the icon of the app I’m giving [01:31:00] away and then ends with a picture of the robot holding the icon on top of a confetti background.

[01:31:06] Brett: And it’s the same for every post and I thought, I thought, God, I should be able to create these automatically. And RetroBatch could do it. RetroBatch can’t overlay images in that way. So I dug in and I got down to ImageMagick, which is a command line utility you can install with Homebrew. And it’s… It’s, um, capabilities are immense and it’s command line options are intense.

[01:31:38] Brett: Um, you will have to Google everything you want to do, uh, in order to put it together. But now I can type robot and then the name of any application on, uh, my local machine or on Either the Mac App Store or the iOS App Store, [01:32:00] and it will automatically generate the robot holding that icon, and it will generate the confetti image, um, in, in one keystroke, and it will automatically create the, uh, WebP and I, I, uh, Twitter and Facebook sharing images for that, uh, post header and it is, it’s. It’s an intensely complex command line utility, but, uh, honestly, like, there’s nothing else that can do what it does.

[01:32:36] Christina: Yeah, nothing even comes close. Like, it is, it’s literally the FFmpeg for images. Like, if you’ve wanted to use something, you know, similar to FFmpeg, uh, but dealing with images, like ImageMagick, and the, um, the maintainer of it is, is really great. And, um, you know, the stuff that’s added, like, like Brett was saying, you have to look up every single thing you do.

[01:32:57] Christina: It is insane.

[01:32:58] Brett: There is, [01:33:00] there is room, there is space in the app community for a graphic interface to ImageMagick. Like, someone who could do something like what RetroBatch, have you guys ever seen RetroBatch?

[01:33:15] Jay 2: I was going to bring up RetroBatch?

[01:33:17] Brett: Like, it can do so much stuff, but if it could do what ImageMagick does, if it could provide a graphical user interface, a GUI, if you will, to Retro, uh, to ImageMagick, it would, it would be an amazing tool.

[01:33:35] Christina: No, I totally agree. Um, uh, we’ve talked about, it’s been a previous Graftitude pick of mine is, um, uh, FFworks, uh, which is an FFmpeg front end, which is really, really good. Uh, I, I would wish that somebody could do that or, you know, if, if Gus wants to, you know, expand, um, you know, um, a retro batch to, to taking on more of the, uh, uh, image magic stuff, uh, that would be greatly appreciated [01:34:00] too.

[01:34:00] Jay 2: I wonder if there’s like a, uh, just a simple endpoint that you could add similar to like what Brett does half the time. We’re like, Hey, if you want to just do some scripting type thing, just paste this code in, like Keyboard Maestro does this, Bunch does this, Alfred does this. Like. Yeah.

[01:34:16] Jay 2: RetroBatch, just give me access to the CLI for ImageMagick, and then like, now you can do everything else, which I’ve been using, I’ve been using Pillow because it’s a part of like the whole Python image library stuff to do automated, what are those things called?

[01:34:31] Jay 2: The meta tag cards.

[01:34:32] Christina: Yes,

[01:34:33] Brett: Open Graph.

[01:34:34] Jay 2: Yeah, I would love to switch that out to use ImageMagick because, like, right now, it’s, it’s so janky. Like, anytime you have to add text to something, I’m just like, I, I give up.

[01:34:50] Christina: no, totally. And now would actually be a great time for somebody to do a GUI tool because to your point about the Open Graph things, you know, Twitter got rid of the fact, well, headlines on [01:35:00] links. And so what I think that people need to do now is you need to do an overlay of what your headline is on top of your image.

[01:35:08] Christina: And that’s something that you could completely automate with ImageMagick. So if somebody made like a good GUI tool, you know, to kind of take on that feature. You could sell shitloads of copies to basically anybody who publishes anything on Twitter, whether they want to or not, because now,

[01:35:24] Brett: take, if you take the sample code for an image magic command overlay text, it’s going to, it’s going to work, but it’s going to look like shit. And it takes, it takes some knowledge and finesse to actually make it look good. And a GUI could totally make that customizable and easy without constantly tweaking drop shadows and kerning.

[01:35:48] Brett: And yeah.

[01:35:49] Christina: and, and yeah, and the thing is, is that people who are publishing a lot of times these things are never going to do that anyway, and so if you were able to do that, you could Yes, absolutely! You know, like, [01:36:00] look, I don’t want somebody to just do it for, you know, publishing to Twitter, but it you if you, um, you know, even, or, or publishing to open graph stuff.

[01:36:07] Christina: But like, if, if you made a, a good gooey tool, you could have like a quick like part of it that would let you do just that and you could again, like sell so many copies because that’s a, that’s a thing that people a need to do already, and b, increasingly. Um, I’m, I’m waiting, like I’m shocked that the New York Times and people haven’t already built this into their CMSs, to be honest, because they have the resources to do so, you know, having a way to like, overlay the text on those images so that, yeah, when people now look at these things on Twitter, they can actually know what the fuck they’re clicking on.

[01:36:38] Christina: I

[01:36:40] Brett: All right. I feel like that wraps up a 90 minute episode

[01:36:43] Christina: think so.

[01:36:45] Brett: Alright. Jay, thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

[01:36:48] Jay 2: Anytime.

[01:36:50] Brett: Alright. you, guys, get some sleep.

[01:36:53] Christina: get some sleep.

[01:36:54] Jay 2: Get some sleep. [01:37:00]