Overtired 273

[00:00:00] Brett: So welcome to over tired. We are, um, recording in the wake of a minor tragedy. Uh, last Sunday we sat down for two and a half hours.

[00:00:17] We got, we got like an hour into it and we’re like, oh hell, let’s just keep going. Let’s record two episodes at once. And we finished after two and a half hours and I went and got a snack and I came back and I started the editing process. And I did a thing where I moved the files out of the audio hijack folders.

[00:00:37] And safely had them in my edit folder. And then in audio hijack, I clicked a button to delete sessions and instead of moving the sessions to the trash, so it had like a bookmark on them. Instead of moving the session, you said the trash, it just vaporize them. And two and a half hours of audio disappeared.

[00:00:57] And I was the only person who had all the tracks and [00:01:00] we lost it and we took a week to recover and we’re back today and we’re going to record another marathon session that will be published in two episodes. And we have a special guest for both of them. So without further ado, I’m Brett Terpstra. I’m here with Christina Warren and our special guests.

[00:01:19] Jeff Severns Gunzel, how’s it going? You guys.

[00:01:22] Jeff: Good.

[00:01:24] Christina: Pretty good. Pretty good. Uh, I mean, you know, honestly, I, I was promised a week off, uh, because we, we did so much work, so I’m a little, I’m

[00:01:34] Brett: Uh, no, I get, it was devastating. Like I couldn’t, I couldn’t even, I couldn’t even talk. I was so no, it was horrible. Plus I had been manic. I was like on two hours of sleep, it was awful.

[00:01:46] Christina: I

[00:01:46] was going to say that was, that was a problem. Like, like, um, you had been so tired and so you were, you know, you did a great job, but like I could tell you’re just like trying to keep it together.

[00:01:55] Brett: I fell asleep. Like there was a point where I

[00:01:58] Jeff: you did fall

[00:01:58] Brett: at about two hours and [00:02:00] 15 minutes.

[00:02:01] Christina: They were like, We were like red and

[00:02:03] he was like, oh yeah, hi. Yeah. But no, but, but, you know, so I felt terrible.

[00:02:08] Cause I was like, oh man, like this was like rough for you. And then for, I mean, we’ve all been there. Those things have happened, but it is good. Another good reminder of just like how, how much we hate computers, honestly. Like,

[00:02:23] Jeff: you know?

[00:02:24] Brett: Well,

[00:02:25] Jeff: And also like,

[00:02:26] Brett: love, hate.

[00:02:27] Jeff: the thing, the thing I felt bad about is it Brett, when you kind of gave me a sense of how hard you were taking it.

[00:02:33] I was like, man, that conversation was great for my mental health. So I’m just glad it happened.

[00:02:40] Brett: Yeah, we’re basically a therapy session. We’re a free, a free therapy session. I guess we get paid. You didn’t get paid.

[00:02:49] Jeff: That’s all right. I

[00:02:50] Brett: Actually. None of us got paid for that.

[00:02:51] Jeff: I was going to say none of it last week.

[00:02:56] Mental Health Corner the First

[00:02:56] Brett: So w w the mental health corner last week, I will, [00:03:00] I will recap because I’m still in kind of the same position. Um, I, I had, I had made these big plans to switch from Focalin to Vyvanse because I had to get these bipolar mood swings under control. Like I used to have a, uh, a manic episode, like once a year and for the last year or so, I’ve been having them almost monthly and I can’t keep doing it.

[00:03:26] It’s it’s not productive. And I came to believe that Focalin was the problem. So I think we talked about that. And in an episode that actually got published and I was going to switch to Vyvanse. Uh, it gets to be time for the refill. I call in the prescription and my doctor is on vacation for three weeks and they hand me over to, uh, like a fill in doctor to cover the script, but she refuses to make the switch to Vyvanse because my doctor didn’t leave any notes about it.

[00:03:56] So I got another month of Focalin and [00:04:00] immediately started having a manic episode within a week. And it just, it further cemented the fact that I have to switch to Vyvanse. And, um, it’s been a long manic episode. I think like last night was the first night I slept well in since last Friday. So I’m pissed.

[00:04:20] I’m looking. I I’m okay. So here’s the thing I realized. Um, and I, I, I’ve kind of known this, but I finally admitted to myself if I were smart, When a manic episode starts, I would stop taking the Focalin, but I really enjoy Focalin. And I extend the manic episode by continuing to take the Focalin and the fact that I can’t not take it if I have, it means I’m addicted to it.

[00:04:50] And, uh, so getting rid of it is my only choice. I can’t tell my doctor that I might have like any kind of problem with it, because that would preclude [00:05:00] me being able to get any other stimulants, even though Vyvanse is way safer and can’t be abused. Like I have to, I mean, it’s easy enough to say I need to do it because it triggers bipolar.

[00:05:11] Um, but yeah, like.

[00:05:13] Christina: yeah. Well, but you can’t be honest in that way. I mean, Right, I mean, like if you had it, I don’t know. Like, I feel like my shrink, like if you’d been with him for 20 years, like I have, it would be different, but, but, you know, um, but it would, it would require such an established relationship for a doctor not to be like, okay, well actually now this is an indicator of something that we cannot prescribe any of this class of drugs for, because you have been honest about.

[00:05:45] Brett: I was however, completely honest with Al telling her things that I’ve kind of known for months. Uh, things that I couldn’t be realized, but really like explaining where, where I stand with, like addiction [00:06:00] wise and everything. And we had a heart to heart. She was extremely understanding.

[00:06:04] Um, we made some plans to like find a new like therapist and everything. It’s going to be good. It feels good to like, have some secrets in the light, but it’s been a rough couple of days, I guess.

[00:06:19] Christina: Yeah,

[00:06:21] sorry, go on

[00:06:22] Jeff: this thing about, um, sort of diagnoses and, and, and honesty and all of that. Like, there’s a, I’ve really encountered this, this past year in both spheres, both with my, um, psychiatric nurse practitioner. I take, um, sertraline and Vyvanse and, uh, and also then at home and the problem I have.

[00:06:43] Is every time I realized how helpful it is to be a little more honest. Um, whereas I might’ve been afraid to be in the past cause I was afraid there’d be repercussions. Like what you said, bro. Like maybe they’d be like, well you told us that focal lens too much. Like cocaine. Well, we don’t want to give you [00:07:00] any stimulant.

[00:07:00] Right? Like I’m so kind of like nervous about navigating those waters when I don’t have a relationship with a professional that I think I end up also being just a bad patient because in general I find myself sort of self-censoring and not at all in a manipulative way. Right. But just like that desperate feeling of like, I know what I want and that I actually want to be a partner in this, not just your patient.

[00:07:23] Right? Like nobody knows me better than me.

[00:07:26] Brett: here’s what I want to find is a therapist, not a psychiatrist, but a therapist who understands neurodivergence who understands ADHD and bipolar, who has also been an addict. Someone, someone who understands like current, uh, like the current understandings of addiction, which have actually just in the last five years have expanded and grown, um, as well as treatment, someone who could do all of that for me, that I could just open up to you because I didn’t have to worry that they were [00:08:00] controlling my, my medication and the things that I need to function and just be brutally honest about like what I feel and what I go through.

[00:08:10] And I haven’t found that person yet. And I live in a small town and if I find that person, it will probably be a telehealth kind of

[00:08:19] Christina: I was, yeah, I was going to say, I was going to say, unfortunately, that might be one of those things, but I mean, this is one of the only positive things I think at all that has happened in the last two years is that it is normalized tele-health um, for a lot of things and, and that’s, I think really opens people up, especially people like you who like live in small towns who don’t have access maybe to a local.

[00:08:41] Have, you know, a specialist like, like what you’re looking for, you’re looking for a therapist who has experience with addiction, um, you know, personal stuff, um, which, um, not to say that, like you couldn’t maybe have that in a small town, but like the chances of it being someone who would be covered by your insurance and local to you and taking new patients [00:09:00] and those other things, like, you know, it just becomes smaller and smaller.

[00:09:03] Whereas now, and this is also really good, you know, with like how your job situation and stuff has evolved. I mean, meaning that you have, like, you know, your, your insurance situation is a little more robust, although you had good, um, state insurance before, is that, is that you have like a national network, Right.

[00:09:19] Like this is like, we have, I’m just going to go on a brief tangent just because healthcare stuff is so fucked up. So at Microsoft, we have a couple of different options for like healthcare providers. And one of them is like a Kaiser, like HMO, which, you know, they offer it and I’m like, why would anyone take this?

[00:09:39] Um, and then they have like a blue cross blue shield, like, um, HSA and like a PPO, which is nationwide. And they will give you a certain amount and you have still like a certain deductible. And like the company covers based on what they’ll put it in your HSA account, most of what the deductible would be, but not all of it.

[00:09:57] Um, and then there is a [00:10:00] local, um, HSA PPO for what they say is that the Puget sound area, but it’s not really where they will cover even more. All of that and, and kind of everything is covered. The problem with that is that you have to live on the east side of Seattle to really take advantage of the healthcare providers.

[00:10:18] And for people who don’t know, Seattle is separated by like, it’s like people that call the area like east side and west side. And, and, and it’s separated by, um,

[00:10:26] Brett: Which one’s the good side.

[00:10:28] Christina: I mean, I think the west side, cause because that’s where I live. That’s like where the city proper is. Right. So if you were living in the actual city of Seattle, you’re on the west side.

[00:10:35] but if you are living in the suburbs where people can afford bigger houses and, and will, Bellevue is actually a quite expensive, but, um, it it’s, you know, like the, kind of like the snobby kind of like area of, kind of the, you know, the, the, um, Sabi urban kind of, but suburban area, you know what I’m talking about, um, like that that’s on, on, on the east side, but like, but Kirkland and, and, and, and, um, uh, [00:11:00] Redmond and Bellevue and, and, you know, um, Samish, these other things are all on the east side.

[00:11:04] Brett: like really white neighborhoods.

[00:11:06] Christina: Uh, I mean, those names are all Indian, but yes.

[00:11:12] Jeff: And, and yes,

[00:11:13] Brett: So, so is the town I live in and it is very white.

[00:11:16] Christina: I mean, you’re not, you’re not wrong at all. I mean, we’ll, we’ll widen and, and, uh, and Asian, I guess, which is, you know, um, so, uh, but, but in terms of like, you know, Seattle does not have a lot of black people. Um, but the thing is, is it’s like, okay, so you can have this better on paper, healthcare plan, but only if you live on the east side, because if you live on the west side, you can’t go to like the, the hospital system or like the doctors.

[00:11:41] They’re like, they’re not part of the system. So it’s like, Anyway,

[00:11:46] Jeff: That is a, I’m not really trying to belittle this. That’s a real west side story. Like it’s just like that crazy ass. Like how in the hell is this the thing that means that kind of determines whether you can or can’t Have this particular

[00:11:59] Christina: kind of [00:12:00] coverage?

[00:12:00] No, exactly, exactly. Well, to me, I’m just frustrated by it. Cause I’m like, I would like this other plan. Um, but I’m not willing to only go to doctors on, you know, the, the, the east side of town. Uh, if I lived there, that’d be one thing, but I don’t. So, you know, anyway, uh, which is sorry, go on.

[00:12:17] Brett: Have you guys ever done tele-health therapy?

[00:12:20] Christina: Yeah.

[00:12:21] Jeff: Yeah. But all of my therapy? for the last three

[00:12:24] years.

[00:12:24] Yeah,

[00:12:25] Brett: setup? How do you get comfortable on, on like zoom? Like what’s your room set up for that?

[00:12:30] Christina: Oh, I just do it over the phone. I do it on zoom.

[00:12:34] Brett: I can’t, I can’t like speakerphone or do you like sit back and

[00:12:39] Christina: I mean, I have, like, I have, like, I have like my AirPods or my AirPods max on, and I’m usually like in bed sometimes I’m

[00:12:44] Brett: Yeah. Okay. That’s what I’m asking. That’s exactly what I’m asking. You’re like you’re chilling out. You’re you’re in a comfortable spot in your house.

[00:12:51] Christina: Yeah. I mean, I have done it. I think, I think I’ve done it like in, I’m trying to think. Cause, cause with my shrink before I ghosted him for a period of time, I even did it in [00:13:00] New York. So I’ve actually probably been with him at this point, tele wise, almost as much as I was with him. Um, in person, um, There might’ve been a case where we might, I might’ve been like on an above ground subway, right.

[00:13:15] Because in New York city, you know, but no one gives a shit. Um, uh, and, and there might’ve, you know, there were a couple of occasions where like, if I couldn’t find an appointment any other time where it was like, okay, I’m, I’m literally walking around New York city or sitting on a park bench. Um, again, no one cares, but in general, uh, yeah, sitting in bed or sitting in my office kind of kicked back relaxed with my headphones in.

[00:13:37] Brett: What about you, Jeff?

[00:13:38] Jeff: Oh man. Okay. So two different things, two different experiences. So one my therapist for a couple of years who, who retired like a year ago, who I just loved, but she was in, she was older and not like super computer savvy. And in fact did not want to move to telehealth even early in the pandemic, but was obviously open to it.

[00:13:56] And I spent the first, I’d say six [00:14:00] or seven. Appointments doing it with her for the first 20 minutes. And you know how frustrating that can be. And so like, you may have entered in the right Headspace, but after being like, no, here’s how I know. It’s your computer mic. I can really hear your fan and your hard drive clicking.

[00:14:16] So what I need you to do is, you know, and it’s just, she’s like, no, and then she’d go in, she’d come back. She’d be like, you know, I’ll be like, no, it’s not better. And then there were two full appointments where I just decided not to tell her that the entire time I just heard, this is the worst.

[00:14:35] Brett: That’s all you heard or you

[00:14:36] Jeff: it was no, I heard her, but from her machine,

[00:14:39] Christina: I was hearing that.

[00:14:40] you heard, you heard the background bang

[00:14:42] Jeff: and, and she had just gotten a new kitten.

[00:14:44] And so the kitten would jump onto the computer and then like the keyboard would fall down and she’d be like, oh, hold on. I just don’t know what to do. I’m like, oh my God, I have things to talk about. Am I on the clock? Um,

[00:14:55] Brett: there’s

[00:14:56] Christina: you are always on the clock. That’s the

[00:14:57] answer.

[00:14:57] Brett: there’s tape all over my desk to [00:15:00] hold things in place. When the kitten jumps up on it, I’ve just, I’ve accommodated the kitten.

[00:15:05] Jeff: My, um, my other one is not an official therapy relationship. I, I had worked on a project that required traveling to some really amazing remote places, internationally with some really amazing people and doing essentially like retreats. Um, and the woman who led those as a therapist, or was a therapist in England and, and is just on the verge of retiring.

[00:15:27] Kind of work anymore. Anyway, I really loved working with her and I just wanted to be able to talk with her once or twice a month in, in line with kind of what our conversations had been on these retreats and like the fucking Swiss Alps and, well, actually we ended up on a sex call it’s land in California accidentally.

[00:15:43] But, but anyway, this is totally different and it’s amazing. So she is living in like a, like 400 year old cottage in the, you know, like, I don’t know where she is. She’s in rural London, all London, sorry, [00:16:00] everybody right. Rural England. And she has to turn on a generator to do our stuff. She has no power there.

[00:16:08] And, and it’s the most sublime experience. And she actually asks me to bring my computer monitor a little more close, like a little closer so that she can feel like we’re a little bit more looking at each other. Cause my, I have my monitor kind of high. And so she’s really mindful about that stuff. She’s like, I can’t connect right now.

[00:16:26] Can you just try to bring that monitor down or whatever it doesn’t happen much, but how I pay her? No, I don’t pay her. I send money to a man on death row and it’s someone that she’s, that she, she had done a lot of work on death row in the U S way back in the day, um, like group therapy sessions. And it’s someone that she’s stayed in touch with and who I’m now in touch with and, and building a relationship with.

[00:16:54] And, um, and so when I get done, I just go put money on his books and, [00:17:00] uh, and that was the point and he buys amazing paints and sends me a many amazing

[00:17:05] Brett: Oh, I was going to ask, like, what if you knew what kind of stuff? Someone with no outs, like obviously it’s death row. He’s never going to like have a savings account or

[00:17:14] Jeff: Yeah. And he’s mostly in solitary too, so it’s not like he’s swapping stuff with

[00:17:18] Christina: people. So, so it’s yeah. I mean, so, you just like put money in his commissary account or

[00:17:23] Jeff: yes, but there are those who, who hear me say that and say, that’s the, that’s the best way to describe you, Jeff, that I know that you love that interaction.

[00:17:32] And just, I guess, background, I used to actually visit death row in Illinois as part of the Illinois coalition against the death penalty. So I’d like go to dude cells and ask them, you know, how things were, what they needed. Ha you know, are you all caught up on your Maxim issues? I would get asked for maximum a lot.

[00:17:49] Um, anyway, remember Maxim, like it’s like,

[00:17:52] it’s like Cinemax.

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[00:17:53] Brett: and in fact that that’ll be a great lead in to our next, uh, but [00:18:00] speaking of maximum security,

[00:18:03] Jeff: Nice.

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[00:19:17] Back to the Future. Or the 90s.

[00:19:17] Jeff: Um, interacting with monitoring. Yeah, it does get a little tripped up in

[00:19:21] there.

[00:19:22] Brett: In the last episode, we, it was mostly about the nineties and, and I would love, we can’t fully recapture the magic. It was, it was an amazing that first hour of the chat. Uh, we, we covered some stuff that I dunno. We’ll see, we’ll see if we recapture any of it, but I’m happy to see where this conversation goes, but I want to start it off by saying I got, uh, the nineties by Chuck close to men.

[00:19:52] And like the audio book was released when, when we recorded last week, we were talking about the [00:20:00] potential of it coming out. Now I have it, and I’m going to a couple of chapters into it. And it’s amazing.

[00:20:05] Jeff: Wait a minute. Do do me a favor. Just read me a little bit from the back so I can get my head in the space about this book.

[00:20:11] Brett: I don’t, I don’t have that.

[00:20:13] Jeff: Oh, you have the audio

[00:20:14] Brett: I have the audio, but in

[00:20:15] Jeff: Go ahead. And just, I’m going to need you to show me. the back of your.

[00:20:18] Brett: It’s like listening to Tom Robbins on an audio book. Like there all these sentences you want to highlight and be like, holy shit. That’s just a great sentence. Um, and, and the audio book, you just, you can’t do that. And I kind of am thinking about also getting a paperback of it, or at least a Kindle one I can highlight and.

[00:20:38] Christina: Yeah. I find that I do that a lot where I buy, cause I don’t, I okay. As much as many physical things that I have in my life, the one area where I, I, unless there’s no other choice because it’s out of print or something that I’ve like completely cut out, unless it’s like a really special book. And like, it has got a reason to be, um, you know, in, in print, like there are a lot of, there’s a lot of photography or [00:21:00] something.

[00:21:00] I don’t buy paper books anymore. I just don’t. Um, I just don’t have the space for them. And, and it’s one of those weird things. Like I still will buy physical media for certain things, but I won’t buy buy books, but I very frequently buy the Kendall version and the audible version for those reasons. Cause I like to be able to read, but.

[00:21:17] Brett: So, did you get the nineties?

[00:21:19] Christina: Yes.

[00:21:20] Brett: Did you start it yet?

[00:21:21] Christina: Um, I got through, like, I read like the first essay.

[00:21:24] Brett: Okay. Which one was that? Remind me.

[00:21:27] Christina: No, I don’t remember. Now I’m going to have to

[00:21:29] Brett: Okay. So the one I was listening to last night was on Nirvana and, and, uh, Pearl jam as kind of a side story,

[00:21:39] Christina: Yeah, yeah. Okay.

[00:21:40] Go on.

[00:21:41] Brett: Uh, it was, it was it’s fascinating. He is, he is really good at capturing the nineties in a way that, like, I remember all of the things he’s talking about, but I never thought about it

[00:21:53] Christina: Yes.

[00:21:54] Brett: this.

[00:21:55] Like he describes gen X is really what the book is about.

[00:21:59] Christina: That’s really what the [00:22:00] book is about. is about

[00:22:00] Jenna.

[00:22:01] Brett: disaffected, uh, apathetic, uh, people who, if you told them that they were apathetic, they, their response would be to dismiss you. Like it’s in, in, in, in the process confirming that they are like apathetic. And that describes my generation really well.

[00:22:21] Christina: Yeah. In the what’s so interesting to me is that’s not my generation, but it was the culture that I grew up obsessed with. Right. So, so like, it’s this interesting thing, cause we’re going to talk about the real world. I think we’ll be our perfect segues from this. Um, and, um, and, and, and the thing is, um, like, like I grew up like idolizing gen X, but I knew that I was not in it.

[00:22:45] Right. Like, and I, and I knew that that, that I, I, I knew it was a moment even as it was happening, because it was basically over, I would say like a lot of like that era, the nineties was probably over by like 96. Um, but like my formative years as a little kid were. [00:23:00] Obsessed and like looking up and like idolizing this idea of, you know, in kind of this apathy and I, and I loved it.

[00:23:08] And I think that actually what separates, like my generation, like the millennials from like genetics is that I can’t imagine that gen X ever would’ve idolized or like been excited. You know what I mean? By like a prior generation, right?

[00:23:23] Brett: Okay. So he does point out that. In reality bites, the music that they most idolized is from the seventies. And

[00:23:32] Christina: makes

[00:23:32] Brett: most of their kitsch comes from the

[00:23:35] Christina: seventies

[00:23:36] Yes.

[00:23:37] Brett: and that the nineties generation, uh, there were two things that they, they wished it was still the seventies and that they made a, um, an art form out of, uh, not selling out, but selling out,

[00:23:54] Christina: Right. Yes. Which, which is, which is the thing that I, whereas my generation, there was never any qualms and there is [00:24:00] even less for, for like the zoomers like gen Z. There’s even less like, worry about selling out. Like, it’s almost like if anything that you get your bag is, is the thing like get, get, you know, cap like that is the whole thing.

[00:24:10] Like you’re excited by selling out my generation. we weren’t necessarily excited by selling out, but we accepted that it was going to happen. And we weren’t like mad about it,

[00:24:19] whereas

[00:24:20] Brett: didn’t even, we weren’t even able to fully define what selling out what.

[00:24:25] Christina: you weren’t right.

[00:24:26] Brett: anyone who succeeded,

[00:24:28] Christina: Well, that was the thing, right. anyone who succeeded, but the one interesting thing, and this has carried on and, and, and I think that this is why like gen X has been. So even though it’s, it’s a, it’s the smallest generation is it’s in some ways kind of the briefest and, and

[00:24:40] Brett: left out of infographics. All of this.

[00:24:42] Christina: I was, I was going to say, it’s the forgotten generation, but it’s also, even though it’s left out of those things, I think from a cultural level is one of those impactful.

[00:24:50] And, and part of that, I think is a, that the, the millennials who, you know, the biggest generation since the baby boomers, like looked up and idolized and took that as our [00:25:00] cultural cues. Right. Um, and, and so it’s, had this, this outsized impact, but I think the other thing is, you know, it was smart in the sense, like, I think about this a lot, and I think I’ve even written essays about this, probably even in college, I wrote essays about this, which tells you how long ago it was, was like the gen X-ers were the first ones who.

[00:25:20] Really embraced nostalgia and the seventies thing is a huge part of that, right? Like there is all the, the, the recreation of the, um, um, uh, what was it? The, the, you know, the I’m disabil no, no, no school house rocks, you know, you know, you know, the, the, the school house rock things and, and the covers of other, you know, seventies classics and like the kitchen element, but there was like this, this big wave of nostalgia and like, embracing that and wanting to go back to that era.

[00:25:47] And in my

[00:25:48] Brett: I was going to say it’s nostalgia from the perspective that everything sucks now. And it was better. Not just like, things were really fun back then, but like, everything is shit now and everything was [00:26:00] better before.

[00:26:01] Christina: And, and, and with my generation, and this is especially true, I think even the generation after, but certainly with my generation, we all had this like, Bo nostalgia in the sense that we are established for shit that we never even experienced. So we’re an established for like, it it’s like a manufactured nostalgia and, and which is why like millennial bait completely is.

[00:26:22] And, and, and this goes to, to zoomers a little bit too, but like total millennial bait is stuff like. The saved by the bell pop-up restaurant that I went to in, um, west Hollywood, where they recreated the max and the sensitive of the bell, and you paid like $80 or something, you know, for your prefect, the dinner.

[00:26:40] It was great. And, and I, I was very excited to get, to go to, to do it. I happened to be in LA early because there was a snow storm in Seattle and I needed to go to Los Angeles, uh, to go to, um, uh, Australia. So I flew out a day early, went to Disneyland. And then at night, like had like reservations at the pop-up with my friend, [00:27:00] Donna.

[00:27:00] We went to the max and then we, um, got on like a 11:30 PM flight to Sydney. So, uh, great, great, great trip. But, um, you know, but that’s the sort of thing, like where they’re selling you back. This, this stuff that you’re not even sure, quite sure what you’re gonna salary about. Like, I was reading this, this trend piece of all things.

[00:27:19] Um, in the times, the other day, uh, the American girl cafe in New York city, like influencer, like a old, like younger millennials, like people who were like in their late twenties, early thirties are going to the American girl cafe, not even ironically, but like excitedly and like bringing their old dolls with them and then taking photos and are like very into it.

[00:27:40] And like, that’s the thing. Like we have like this, like nostalgia oftentimes for, for the past that, that people can sell it back to us. And we know they’re selling it back to us and we will buy it and we will spend so much money to rebuy shit from our childhood. Um, but, but it’s not in the guise of like, everything was better than which I think was the genetics thing.

[00:27:59] It’s like the, [00:28:00] oh my God, I love this. And I remember this kind of thing, right? Like.

[00:28:03] Brett: like gen X wouldn’t, gen X didn’t want to be marketed to, um, like they wouldn’t, if it felt like someone was wrapping packaging something and then selling it to you, that was like, that was not cool.

[00:28:18] Christina: Right, right. Right. Which whereas like, yeah,

[00:28:21] Brett: It’s still isn’t that’s still part of my personality.

[00:28:23] Christina: Oh no, I totally, I mean, and whereas part of mine is I’m fully aware that I’m being marketed to, but if it’s cool, I’m like, yeah, I don’t care. I want it.

[00:28:31] Brett: Jeff, did you ever see reality bites?

[00:28:34] Jeff: I did not. I did not see it. I don’t know why

[00:28:37] Brett: It’s okay. It is. Very gen X movie, but it was, it was written by people who wanted to market to gen X. And there’s the, the essay Chuck Klosterman his essay on it is it’s awesome. Uh, he talks about how the, the decision that would own a writer makes between Ethan Hawke and, uh, [00:29:00] and Ben Stiller for gen X, Ethan Hawke was the right decision.

[00:29:04] And Ben stellar was the bad guy for almost any generation before or after

[00:29:10] Christina: I wrapped her. It’s

[00:29:11] Brett: made the wrong choice.

[00:29:12] Christina: Right. Totally. And, and it’s interesting because, um, Linda, Linda Holmes, who does a NPR is like a, um, a happy hour or whatever. Like she wrote an essay. I remember, and she is gen X number. She wrote an essay years and years and years and years ago, um, about that. And like, she was like lamenting, you know, like she was watching it, I guess, more as an adult and was like, why would, why would you pick Ethan Hawke?

[00:29:34] Um, but at the time remembering that, like, she felt like Ethan Hawke was the only choice and, and my friend, Heidi, who is gen X. Um, and, uh, although she likes to, think of herself as not gen X. And I’m like, I’m sorry, how do you are completely gen X? Like we’ve had this discussion too, where like, in that moment, in that time of her life, like, that’s the only decision you make.

[00:29:51] Whereas like, he’s not like Ben Stiller, invincible directed the film too. I think he actually did a really good job with it. I think it was his first directorial, um, [00:30:00] uh, film. Um, and that that’s when he thought that he was going to be a director and not like the superstar he became, um, Like the character, there’s nothing bad about him.

[00:30:09] You know, he’s not a villain, but yet he is kind of portrayed as being like it’s

[00:30:13] Brett: to gen X he’s, the definition must sell out

[00:30:16] Christina: Totally.

[00:30:17] A 100.

[00:30:17] Brett: else. He’s just a successful, hardworking guy.

[00:30:21] Christina: Right to 'em. Uh, my favorite joke from that movie still is when, um, uh, Jeannine Gruffalos character points out that Evian spelled backwards is naive.

[00:30:31] Brett: Yeah.

[00:30:34] Jeff: I, so I wanna, I wanna add a different sort of layer to this conversation about the nineties, because last week, um, and now this conversation I’m listening to right now, like have it’s really stirred something in me, which is that there are these feelings about that decades.

[00:30:52] I’m 43, I’m 43 I’m 47. Which I’m happy to be. [00:31:00] I, my my last year of high school was 1993, so like right, right in there. Um, and the thing about nostalgia, that’s kind of interesting to me, ties to something close to him and says, he, he apparently sort of defines the end of the nineties as being, um, nine 11.

[00:31:16] And, and I actually think, you know, I had a ton of nostalgia for the seventies. We had an amazing, um, store here. We still do, but it’s like a, kind of a weird chain now, But it was called Ragstock and you could go downtown and go to Ragstock or uptown. And what they carried was tons of like surplus clothes.

[00:31:32] They carried the kind of clothes that probably now are likely to be shipped over to poor countries where you like, see people wearing a champion shirt.

[00:31:40] Brett: they charged enough for them that it wasn’t a good.

[00:31:45] Jeff: But it created it as a bit of a sideline, but it created such an interesting fashion thing for us, because while as like, okay, so whereas in Seattle, like we all started to identify Seattle with the flannel and the baggy jeans and all that stuff [00:32:00] right here. What was going on was basically dictated by what was for sale at Ragstock.

[00:32:05] And so Ragstock sent like, Ragstock sold a bunch of army surplus clothes. So there were a lot of like camel pants. They sold a ton of scrubs, like just like the regular old blue scrubs. And so like everybody, I knew their pajama pants were like blue scrubs. Right. And like, it was such an amazing thing because it was just one place.

[00:32:25] They didn’t have any other places. And it just dictated what, like the nineties looked like until, um, until it really became. The flannel or whatever. Anyway, that’s like, you can just edit that out. Cause it’s not even that interesting a sidebar, but what I want it to say was the, um, the nostalgia for the seventies, similar to Clusterman saying that, um, the nineties ended in on nine 11, like the seventies kind of began in 68 for us.

[00:32:52] Not, not for the people who lived it. Right. Like they still had to fucked up years to live before they could go turn the page. [00:33:00] Right.

[00:33:00] Christina: Well, I mean, cause a lot of people feel like the seventies started with with, well, I mean I’m maybe 60, but I would say, well, yeah, the war, I would save it. But also, I mean, I don’t, most people agree like the end of the sixties was like the, the Manson murders.

[00:33:11] Jeff: I could see that. Yeah. I mean, I could see that I could see feeling that way. Like I wasn’t, I was totally tuned into that. Um, but for me it was like, It was like everything, the whole timeline of the seventies, for me, beginning in 68, was that it was about sort of a revolution going off.

[00:33:29] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I can see that.

[00:33:31] And, and, and that would, and I, and I think maybe like the final nail would be like, um, the, the, the, the, the Manson, um, uh, murders. Um, I always also think about it and look, I mean, this was, you know, uh, decades before I was born. So like, I don’t have direct like impact or whatnot, but the, uh, um, one of my favorite films is, um, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid.

[00:33:51] And, and that film is a metaphor for the end of the

[00:33:54] sixties.

[00:33:55] Jeff: I’ll have, you know, I started watching that movie last week for like the 50th

[00:33:58] Brett: Did you finish it [00:34:00] though? Cause it’s, it’s a very different movie. If you don’t say the last in.

[00:34:03] Christina: That’s true.

[00:34:05] Jeff: It’s true. But I’ve seen it So much that it doesn’t matter,

[00:34:08] but, but that, that came on. I just am just Wikipedia. And this that came out in September of 69 and, and I’m certainly not the first person who said this, but like that film to me has always been like a metaphor for like the end of the sixties, you know?

[00:34:19] Brett: do you think the nineties started? Because I’m looking at album releases year by year.

[00:34:27] Jeff: No, I’ll tell you. Okay, hold on. I’m just going to jump in on that with Albertsons. I will say that it’s very easy in the case of the start of the nineties, for me to say it started in 1990, because everything that you use to sort of define the, uh, like cultural rejectionist, like attitude of that starts in like 91.

[00:34:47] But the thing it’s reacting against fucking peaks in night.

[00:34:51] Christina: Yes. Yes. I would agree with that. And I also feel like, I mean, cause you could make the argument that is the Gulf war that starts it. So that’s 91, but I do feel like it’s [00:35:00] 1990, also like 1990 and, and, and, and to be clear, what’s so interesting about the nineties is that the rejection aspect was really, I mean, it, it was, it’s what people think about and, and it was like hot and bright, but again, it was over by 96, right.

[00:35:13] So it’s really only half the decade. And the other half of the decade goes hardcore into digital and consumerism and all the things that are the total opposite of really what that first half of the decade was. Right. Hip hop, right? Like, like hip hop and grunge could not be more diametrically opposed in terms of like, what.

[00:35:33] With their values and celebrations are, and I love both equally, but like, if you, if you look at it, like, especially not that, not that rap music didn’t exist in the eighties, but it was different. Right. So when you look at like, like east coast and west coast battles, and you look at like the, the, the fact that they are now bragging about how much they have, and they are like celebrating, you know, what, what they’re doing, which is, again, they’re celebrating, selling out, right?

[00:35:56] Like, which is complete opposite of, of the grunge [00:36:00] movement. But then that takes over culturally and, and, and that, you know, becomes like my generation people who are, you know, teenagers and in the late 1990s, like we loved the grunge stuff and we looked up to that, but we didn’t have. You know, like, like that, that time had passed, you know what I mean?

[00:36:17] Like, it was, it was a different thing. We went into emo, we went into, you know, like, like, like maybe like goth stuff. Like it was a different sort of thing. Um, but I feel like the beginning of like 1990, at least in my mind, I think you’re right. I think it’s 1990 as a starting point, because like what happened in 91, as you said, was a rejection of that, but it was also similar to 2000, although it was 2001 I think is when the two thousands really started where everybody, everything was it’s the nineties, like, like everybody was excited about it.

[00:36:47] You know, like it was this, it was this brand instantly. It was the nineties, like instantly.

[00:36:52] Brett: Without looking what year did pretty hate machine come out?

[00:36:57] Christina: 91

[00:36:57] 92

[00:36:58] Brett: 89. [00:37:00]

[00:37:00] Christina: shit.

[00:37:01] Jeff: Yeah.

[00:37:01] Brett: So there, I’m looking like the releases in 89 are this mix of things that I easily associate with the eighties and a bunch of stuff that if you asked me, I would assume came out in the nineties. Like Nirvana’s bleach was 89 faith. No more.

[00:37:17] The real thing was 89.

[00:37:19] Christina: Definitely.

[00:37:20] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:37:21] Christina: no, that makes

[00:37:22] Brett: first album louder or first single louder than love. Do a little.

[00:37:27] Jeff: Well, and all of that stuff gets vacuumed into the nineties because these are all the bands that signed with major labels and became,

[00:37:33] Christina: and he became huge and became sellouts. But, but, and then everybody would lie. Um, I’m assuming they’re all lying.

[00:37:38] Cause they’re, cause people always lie about this and they’re like, oh, I wasn’t listening to this. When it was on that, I was like, no, you weren’t, you didn’t know. It’s like, it’s like, I don’t care who like, unless you were an actual, like, like Chuck cluster. Probably listened to those bands before they blew up.

[00:37:52] But if you’re, you know what I mean? And like, like people who are music writers and people who lived in those areas and could go to those clubs, but most of the people who became [00:38:00] the most disaffected or were like, oh yeah, they sold out. I’m like, you didn’t even listen to Nirvana until nevermind came out.

[00:38:04] You know what I mean?

[00:38:05] Jeff: And like, to, to flip that only a tiny better to like, reframe that a tiny bit for me, I was never super, um, like in the moment, right? In like 90, 91, 92, 93, I wasn’t really caught up personally in like the sellout thing, because it just seemed too simple to me because what we know about bands and I was in bands from like eighth grade till I was like 23, is that there are groups of people who are don’t operate very functionally, right.

[00:38:35] Who have like a real gift to do this

[00:38:37] Brett: Individually or as a group they don’t operate.

[00:38:40] Jeff: group and, and often individually as a group, for sure. And that’s, that’s the group that has to make the decision about, well, you know, Sony just came knocking, right. Or like, whatever. And I just feel like those were people having to make some decisions that nobody had made a sort of, there was no pathway that they knew of [00:39:00] to go from what Soundgarden was doing on like ultra mega.

[00:39:03] Okay. To what Soundgarden was going to be doing when they’re singing, you know, about the super unknown, right? Like there was no, there was no way to know that transition was going to happen, but there was also no pathway to go from something so wonderfully ugly to the mainstream in the biggest fucking way.

[00:39:21] I still, I listened to Cannonball by the breeders. Like I, I remember that one and I

[00:39:26] Brett: bed used to cover that song.

[00:39:28] Jeff: eat.

[00:39:28] Brett: It’s two chords. It’s fun.

[00:39:30] Jeff: I had, yeah, I just watched them. I’m performing it on MTV. It was still early enough in the nineties that it blew my mind, even as a fan that this band was so huge off of a song that starts by going, like, it’s just like, and then goes, bring your own way in your own round.

[00:39:49] And I’d still look back at those first, like really big songs of that period. And I’m like, holy shit. I know what I was listening to when that stuff came out. I know what I [00:40:00] jumped. I know like what Lily pad I jumped from to get on that Lily pad. And I cannot explain that jump. It is fucking crazy.

[00:40:08] Christina: I know it is.

[00:40:09] And for me, like I, in my mind, just because it was like the age when I really got into music or whatever, it was probably like 93, I would say. When I was like, you know, like, like eight and, and that was kind of like the time when I, you know, that stuff. Like I remember like, like, like the most standout memory to me about kind of like when things in my mind shifted was cause I, I listened to pop music and, and, and to stuff that wasn’t great, you know, and like 80 stuff.

[00:40:35] I, my very first concert that I ever went to was Paula Abdul, who, you know what I love, I love Paul Abdul, but you know what I mean? But Paula Abdul is very different from the other stuff. Like she had her moment and then kind of, you know, faded out because there wasn’t space for that in the period where she still could have been viable as, as a recording artist.

[00:40:53] Um, but I remember seeing like the smashing pumpkins video for today and, and that just like. [00:41:00] Just the whole, just the juxtaposition between the lyrics and how w you know, and, and yet what the song was really saying in the music video and the whole thing, like, it just like got me. And it was like similar to, you know, the, the, the, the breeder song, which is so just iconic.

[00:41:16] Like, it’s one of those most iconic, like, kind of baseline, sorts of nineties things, you know, and, and it just kind of blows your mind and, and it is so interesting to look at. Um, and we’re gonna talk about this a little bit later, I think, but like, when you look at like, like the, the hair metal era and, and how that was deep in it, and that, and in a, in a second that went away. and, and like I missed out on, on all the hair metal stuff.

[00:41:42] Um, but, but I’ve watched enough behind the music and,

[00:41:45] Brett: it went away.

[00:41:47] Christina: and yep, exactly.

[00:41:48] Brett: 92, when all those, all those albums

[00:41:51] Jeff: No,

[00:41:52] you know, when it went away, it was actually a very soft launch, the non hair model metal days, because all of the, like for [00:42:00] lack of a better term, grunge folk had long hair and it was when they started cutting their hair. That that truly died, I think.

[00:42:07] Brett: a, there was a quote from Kurt Cobain about Eddie Vetter, where he, he said that Eddie Vetter was a hair metal guy, and then he stopped washing his hair and got famous.

[00:42:21] Christina: Which is fucking brilliant and perfect. Right. But, but yeah, but I don’t know, but I remember like, like Beck’s loser and like the smashing pumpkins. That’s another

[00:42:30] Jeff: great example.

[00:42:32] Brett: was another, that was another brilliant point. That closer man made me realize that I never thought about what you had, like in a short period of time, Radiohead declaring themselves creeps, uh, smashing pumpkins, declaring themselves zeros. And like every, like all the biggest hits within a

[00:42:49] Christina: was later. No, zero was 96, but yeah, but we’re

[00:42:52] Brett: All okay. Within a decade, all, all the biggest hits seem to be about declaring yourself, unfit.

[00:42:59] Christina: [00:43:00] Totally. Totally.

[00:43:01] Jeff: Go ahead.

[00:43:01] Christina: Go ahead. Sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no. I’m done going, going, well, I

[00:43:04] Jeff: want to jump on unfit. I also want to point out that we are definitely talking about white culture in the nineties, right? Like, yes. Um, like

[00:43:11] Christina: I said,

[00:43:11] Brett: average when you say the nineties. Yeah. Like hip hop is almost its own BS. When you talk about gen X, no one thinks about hip hop.

[00:43:20] Christina: No, I know. And that, and, and I think this is why I was like, trying to point out, even though gen X is definitely part of that. And some people listen to it also even speaking about white people like you don’t and I don’t, I haven’t read his book enough to know, like my sister was really into country music and uh, I mean she listened to

[00:43:37] Brett: Shania Twain was huge in the nineties.

[00:43:39] Christina: Yeah, late nineties.

[00:43:40] but, but I’m talking like Garth Brooks, Garth Brooks, like, yeah, like, like I I’m talking like, like, like Garth’s albums, like sold like, like, you know, Shanaya is unique. I mean, she’s, she was like the Taylor swift at that time where, you know, I think it is still the selling female album of all time is, is, um, um, uh, come [00:44:00] on over, like by a ridiculous margin.

[00:44:03] It’s like 35 million copies worldwide or something just insane. But, um, but like Garth Brooks and, and, and, and, uh, you know, some of those other things like that was like big, um, but hip hop. I think that that started to shift probably in, in also around 1990, maybe late eighties with, with NWA and stuff, but then you really do see, like, I would say it’s interesting because that really, I think like it’s probably 93 or whatever, you’re the chronic came out where, where there’s like a big shift there

[00:44:35] Jeff: man, Garth Brooks.

[00:44:36] The other thing about the nineties is if you had set me for most of the nineties, if you had put me, uh, you know, said here’s a mark on the floor and we just stand here and then Garth Brooks, I want you to stand here. And Chris Cornell, I want you to stand here so that they’re on either side of me. And you had to guess which one was my uncle.

[00:44:51] You would definitely guess Garth Brooks. Right? Like I did not look except for long hair. Like this world I was fascinated with.

[00:44:59] Christina: Like, [00:45:00] and, and, and the chronic was, was December of 92. So it was close. So

[00:45:03] Brett: that up. I was gonna, I was gonna tell you, like I knew, um, okay. We, we need to do another sponsor break and then I want to talk about Pam and Tommy before we end this part one, I promise we’ll get to like real world reunion in, in part two of this, of this two-part episode we’re doing in the meantime,

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[00:46:21] Brett: Yeah, I, so I’ve been back on, can I say the name of the big I’ve been back on Verizon for a year. And even after I have my, my phone, my current phone paid off, it’s still costing me like almost a hundred bucks a month. And I am, I have a new mint, mobile SIM ready to go. I’m putting my phone number and I am so excited to just be paying 15 bucks a month.

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[00:47:24] Prosthetic penises. Penii?

[00:47:24] Brett: Uh, you know, you can spend all that extra money on

[00:47:27] Jeff and Christina: What’s that?

[00:47:28] Brett: porn.

[00:47:29] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say, and Katie, I was, I was going to say I was like aunt or

[00:47:33] Brett: there an album like porn and candy. Wasn’t it like a cure album or

[00:47:36] Christina: it was no sex and candy and it was Marcy’s playground.

[00:47:39] Brett: very nice job. I knew I could count on you for that.

[00:47:42] Jeff: whole world is Morrissey’s

[00:47:43] Jeff and Christina: playground.

[00:47:44] Brett: um, uh, which brings us to, that was my lead in to talking about Pam and Tommy, which we talked about last in the last episode. Uh, but at that point I had only seen one or two episodes.

[00:47:58] And my [00:48:00] impression was that they, they portrayed Tommy Lee as like purely an asshole. Sure. He’s an asshole, but he’s got that like ADHD energy and like a charm that wasn’t coming through in their portrayal. And it became very obvious starting in the third episode that they set it up brilliantly so that you hated Tommy Lee enough that when his tape was stolen, You felt like it was justice, you thought he deserved that.

[00:48:34] And then before the tape goes like big and before it like could ruin his life, they turned Tommy Lee back into a sympathetic character. Like Pamela Anderson is always a sympathetic character in this, but they make T they, they turned Tommy Lee into the bad guy before they turn them into one big gray area.

[00:48:53] And I thought it was brilliant. You guys keeping up with it?

[00:48:57] Christina: no, I am. I am. I’m not, I’m not. [00:49:00] Um, I, I think I’m, I think I’m through episode three. Um, uh, so I’m not like caught up, but, but I, but I am watching and I think that’s actually a really, really astute observation is they totally did like, make it more sympathetic and make it?

[00:49:11] a gray area. We talked about this a little bit in the last, but I want to bring it up again.

[00:49:15] It is interesting to me how they have just, and I wonder if it’s a political thing that at this point, that the same age, there’s no way they could portray her as anything but sympathetic. Um, but it is interesting, like she is, she is, she’s got like the most sympathetic portrayal ever. And, and to be clear, like, I don’t think she did anything wrong and I don’t think he did anything wrong.

[00:49:38] So I supplied it part of this. I have to like adjust my own, I guess. Um, You know, like, uh, opinions and, and, and expectations and other things and biases, because now I think of the two of them, he’s still like kind of a jerk and kind of a guy, but like, he’s actually a lot, it seems a lot more stable and a lot more together than she does.

[00:49:59] You know

[00:49:59] what I [00:50:00]

[00:50:00] Brett: I haven’t kept track. Like I, okay. So when that tape came out, I knew very well who Tommy Lee was. I had heard of Pamela Anderson. I never read the Playboy. I never, I still, I’ve never seen an episode of Baywatch. Like, I didn’t know anything about Pamela Anderson

[00:50:16] Christina: Whereas, whereas I was the exact opposite. I knew exactly who she was. I had no idea

[00:50:21] Brett: don’t know what she’s like now.

[00:50:23] Christina: Yeah, she’s gotten like, way, way far into like conspiracy theory stuff. Like she was like, she was like, uh, visiting Juliana sands, like in jail all the time. Like, like, like not in jail, but like, um, at, when he was in asylum, when he was like, no, no.

[00:50:35] When he was at the embassy, the embassy in London, like he was

[00:50:39] Brett: Ah, yeah.

[00:50:39] Christina: room for years, inequity at the Ecuadorian embassy, where he was like using all their internet and costing them, like, like hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Um, she was visiting him, but she’s gone like way off the deep end.

[00:50:51] And, and he, uh, is, uh, he’s got like a younger wife, girlfriend or whatever who I think is younger than some of his sons, which [00:51:00] is the least surprising thing. I think you could say about Tommy Lee. Like, of course he does, but, but he seemed at least. two of them, like, I actually find him more like normal now.

[00:51:12] but at the time, obviously he was like the bad boy and, you know, he had like the high profile relationships before, and then she was never America’s sweetheart also she’s Canadian.

[00:51:23] But she was like, which is so far, which is so interesting. Like I think for a lot of people, it is interesting. Like she’s probably one of the most quintessential American, like, you know, like icons, you know, in terms of like women in like the nineties and that sort of thing. Right? Like if you, if you were to think like all American, whatever, like Pamela Anderson probably come to mind, she’s freaking Canadian.

[00:51:43] Um, which I don’t know. I just love that, but she was like, Uh, so her star was so on the rise. Right? She was huge. Um, I, uh, I talked to you both about this before, like, Brett, you weren’t aware of her, but, but, but, but Jeff, like, you definitely [00:52:00] like knew like the panel Anderson, like Playboy stuff.

[00:52:03] Jeff: Yeah, for sure.

[00:52:04] Yeah. Cause my mom had gotten me a subscription. Um, but, but yeah, and I, and it was Baywatch and there’s something else she

[00:52:11] Christina: did. Oh yes. She was on a home improvement.

[00:52:14] Jeff: She was right. She was now. And honestly like much as I like to identify with like heavy metal in those days. And, and maybe even like a guy who has Playboy and the drawers under his water bed, but like honestly, uh, home improvement was where I found the most personal

[00:52:31] connection.

[00:52:32] Christina: Yeah. It was that. What was the name of it? uh, the, the, the guy who was, who was, who was his partner, um, Richard Richard kind I think is, is the actor’s name, but, but, uh, um, I can see his beard. Um, this

[00:52:46] Jeff: is going probably see his beard. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:52:49] Christina: He was, he was the guy who looked like Bob Vila and then like, um, uh, like, like Tim Allen, you know, was, was, uh, the other thing, Okay. this is bothering me.

[00:52:58] This

[00:52:58] Jeff: is, I’m looking it up [00:53:00] too. And I got home home Depot as the first response.

[00:53:05] Christina: Oh, Al Al and it’s not Richard kind. Richard kind is a much better actor. It’s Richard Carn, uh, apologies to, to, to, to Richard kind who, uh, was on, um, another great 90 sitcoms spin city. Um, but, uh, bill Lawrence, um, if, if you I’m just going to go on my ADHD, like Wikipedia, tangent, uh, spin city, but got a scrubs, uh, which, uh, then, uh, the God, um, some of the other things in, in most recently.

[00:53:34] Ted lasso. So, um, but anyway, but, but,

[00:53:37] Jeff: oh God. Yes. yeah. Also do you know, I mean, I didn’t realize this exactly, but since we’re talking about the nineties and when to cap it and started home improvement ran from 91 to

[00:53:48] 99.

[00:53:49] Christina: Yeah.

[00:53:49] That’s true. It could just be, it could just be the home improvement generation, honestly, if you really wanted to come down to it, it could, it could just be the home improvement generation.

[00:53:58] Um, now not, not to [00:54:00] get too far down into that, but I will say like one of like the icons of my childhood and like, like, uh, like the first like teen, like the, one of the poster children, like, like, like, like, um, I guess like teen stars of the nineties was definitely Jonathan Taylor, Thomas, um, who, um, uh, kind of disappeared and whatnot, but he, his face was everywhere for girls my age and, um, And then, then he pissed him Allan off and like left the show.

[00:54:27] Like the last season. He was like, I don’t want to do this anymore. I want to go to college. But anyway, um, but back, back, back to like non children, like stars, uh, Pam Anderson and, and Tommy Lee. Um, have you been watching, um, Jeff, have you been watching

[00:54:41] Jeff: the show at all? I see. I am having the hardest time deciding if I can watch it because I, I had such a, I identified somehow so hard with those guys as an entity, that band as an entity, even though they were fucking.

[00:54:57] Like, yeah. Motley crew, even though they were completely [00:55:00] like despicable humans, but like whatever it’s, so was everybody I loved as it turns out. Um, and, and so like, and Tommy Lee, I was a drummer, Tommy Lee was a drummer and I like, like Tommy Lee, I was like a drummer that felt like maybe he he’s worth being a little more in front than, than most drummers.

[00:55:20] Right. I mean, I

[00:55:21] Christina: didn’t start the band.

[00:55:22] Jeff: Right.

[00:55:23] Brett: front, in front and upside

[00:55:24] Jeff: I didn’t get so far. Yeah. And let’s talk about actually, so I just want, this is a man just for anybody that doesn’t know what time of Lee was like without a talking penis. Um, basically like this was a man who already. Like the star of the show, even when all it was, was a regular old stage, right?

[00:55:43] Like he was one of those drummers that like stood up so tall between his drum parts. That it’s almost like he was desperately saying like, I’m back here, you know, like, don’t forget me. and and he turned that into an entire fucking crane lift [00:56:00] system that would take his drum set in a cage, up into the sky, over the crowd.

[00:56:06] And then I watched a video of this this week. So it’s, it’s, it’s such bad showmanship actually in the videos when you see him going upside down and stuff, it’s super cool. Right. Cause it’s like all quick cuts and, and it just seems like everything’s so energetic, basically, like. Yeah. He’s like city, you see it’s a strap in so he has to have seatbelts.

[00:56:27] He has to have like a, like a trucker’s chair, right seat and right. Not obviously. And then he has over the shoulder seatbelts. Right. So that when he tips to the left or the writer, when he goes upside down, he doesn’t like totally fall over. Right. And so he basically like, there’s this big moment where he comes out over the crowd, but then he just tells the dumbest fucking story to bring everyone in to what’s happening, which is basically this and with about this much energy.

[00:56:52] Hey everybody. So the other night, man, I had a dream and I was on stage and it was awesome. And [00:57:00] you guys were there and there was just like this thought I had, which was like, man, what if I could go just a little bit to the left? And then the thing goes to the left. He’s like, and What if I could go just a little bit to the right.

[00:57:12] You know, it’s like it’s to the right. And then he said, Literally says the most important words of the late eighties, early nineties, fucking choice. And then, and then he keeps coming back to the dream and he keeps playing drums while he’s doing this and not well, like he’s a

[00:57:29] Brett: are we watching? What are you talking

[00:57:31] Jeff: This is a YouTube video where you can watch, this is my own dream.

[00:57:34] I’m

[00:57:34] Brett: Throw this in the show notes.

[00:57:36] Jeff: I will. So then it’s time for him to spin around. Right. And for some like fireworks to happen. And so he’s like, and then I thought, man, but that’s cool. But like, what if I could go all the way around and predictably? What happens when he’s going around is that you start to notice that like cocaine, Jack Daniels and being upside down does not make sense.

[00:57:57] Good of drumming. Like [00:58:00] there’s only so much in your grab bag that you can even reach when you’re upside down and, and he doesn’t actually do anything to make it exciting. It’s just like, you all came to the concert, knowing he’s probably going to go upside down cause you saw the video and you’re waiting for it to happen and it’s happening.

[00:58:15] And it’s literally just a guy going And now I will go to the left, you know, but like with a little more something. So anyway, that’s Tommy Lee, he was incredibly charming. He had that, like that like devilish smile where you’re like, I’m totally gonna hang with this guy and he’s totally gonna fuck me. And he’s totally going to be like, Hey man, oh, can I scratch on your couch for a little bit?

[00:58:39] Like, I don’t need

[00:58:40] Brett: going to hate myself tomorrow, but it’s going to

[00:58:42] Jeff: Totally. He’s that guy. And you’re like, I don’t care. Cause I love him and he’s fun. Right. And, and. And I don’t know that I want to ruin that very specific sense. Cause it’s the one thing I hold on to that I appreciate because I look back on all the videos. Like I was talking in the last [00:59:00] episode about band home videos in the late eighties and early nineties where like they would release a VHS like basically documentary though.

[00:59:07] It’s a little bit of an insult to the form. Uh, whenever they’d request, whenever they’d release an album and you’d be like, it’d be like a little bit in the studio. And like, they’d give the dudes cameras sometimes. And sometimes it would be staged, you know? And like, but you kinda got to look at them, right?

[00:59:23] Like you kind of got a sense for it. Wasn’t like the real vulnerable them. And I certainly wasn’t asking for that and would have been fairly disappointed had I gotten it. Um, but it was like this, this like look into what it’s like to be the thing that I wanted most to be, which was a rock star with long hair. right And I, and I got so much out of those videos that. By the time 98 rolled around, I had already like put all that shit away in a drawer. I decided what Motley crew meant to me and I’d put it away in a drawer. And so I didn’t even watch the sex tape. And for that same reason, I’m not sure I can watch the show even though I really

[00:59:57] Christina: want to know.

[00:59:59] [01:00:00] No, no, no, No, I appreciate it. And it’s a good answer. And you mentioned you never

[01:00:03] even watched the sexy and bright, you never watched it either. Right?

[01:00:06] Brett: never

[01:00:06] Christina: Okay. So I’m somehow the only one, you’re seeing like the most

[01:00:10] Brett: the one, the one woman in the group is the only one who’s seen the pornography.

[01:00:15] Christina: 100% well know. And again, like, I think, you know, cause it was like this, you know, th this moment where, um, I think most people saw it like on video, but, but a lot of people did download it that, you know, internet was still slow then, but it was like the first time where, you know, like codex and stuff existed where you could take this low resolution, like home video footage and, and potentially upload it in like posted size stuff and then download it.

[01:00:37] I’m pretty sure I saw it at somebody’s house. Uh somebody’s dad probably bought it. Um, and, and, and we watched it like,

[01:00:44] Brett: mom let’s not be sexist.

[01:00:46] Christina: I mean, I’m just being realistic and this case, like, I, I think that it would be, it would, it would be a dad who would bite even though, even though the interesting thing with the sex tape is that it’s verite it’s it’s, uh, we, we talked about this [01:01:00] in, uh, in the last episode, but the like the sex tapes that came after it are all much more aware of the camera.

[01:01:08] And, and I, and I, I had a feeling that’s because people had more kind of an idea that like either they might rewatch it again, or, you know, even in the back of their mind, this might somehow be released

[01:01:21] Brett: video video cameras, weren’t home, like personal video cameras were kind of a novelty at, at the time that the sex tape was made. So like no one was experienced with this is how you act when the camera’s running. Although Pam probably understood camera’s pretty well

[01:01:39] Christina: Like, I mean, yeah, he did too. Right. Both of them did, but, but, but, but I think that it was like a, it was very much of a, these were home, home movies. This wasn’t a people who had just gotten together, just gotten married where like, in that, that, that height of like, they’re like, we’re in love and we’re fucking like bunnies.

[01:01:53] And, and we’re capturing this because we have a camera here thing rather than, you know, we’re, we’re making like a sex tape that we’ll [01:02:00] rewatch. Like if use ads cause. Um, a couple of years ago and it struck me, I was like, yeah, you view it. And you’re like, you would never, this, this reads is footage that people recorded.

[01:02:12] They were probably never going to watch it again. Um, and, and because of that, you know, it, there is, uh, quite a quality to it that if you really think about it, like is, is really kind of sad and kind of exploitative because it’s like this was stolen from them. It was a crime. Um, and, and the show goes into that.

[01:02:31] And, uh, but, but it’s one of those things where it’s like, it does feel very personal in a way that most of those things don’t. So there is an interesting thing in that aspect, but from, but from the SEC’s perspective, it’s mostly his Dick, like, honestly, like what, that’s, what you

[01:02:47] Brett: Which is a perfect segue into, okay. So

[01:02:50] Jeff: wait a perfect segue into,

[01:02:52] Brett: into into prosthetic penises, because in the last episode we spent a good chunk of time on prosthetic penises, and I was [01:03:00] tired enough that I don’t remember it. However, all the show notes and descriptions I already have written up are pretty heavy on the prosthetic penis.

[01:03:09] So I just, I want to keep the, the show notes as much as possible. So we have to at least mention

[01:03:16] Jeff: can I, can I say my favorite line from that. discussion, but go ahead. Sorry. Sorry.

[01:03:20] Brett: Okay. So,

[01:03:21] Jeff: I got it. I got it. No, seriously. I got it. I got it. Ready. My favorite, my favorite line. You said it, you said when the penis started talking, that’s when I knew it was a prosthetic.

[01:03:32] Brett: Sure. Yeah. And then we talked about how, like boogie nights, I never realized that was a prosthetic. And we talked about porn, or we talked about how movie stars, like don’t all have big decks. I remember that I remember the gist of the conversation, but just for clarity in the first, uh, episode one or two, a Pam and Tommy, Tommy Lee is standing in front of the mirror and his Dick is [01:04:00] talking to him with Ralphie’s voice with a Jason meant sukus voice and Rafi from the league.

[01:04:10] No,

[01:04:12] Christina: know I’m watching. I had the same thought

[01:04:14] Brett: That would be, that would be even weirder. Yeah. But, but it, the, the, the, the penis is moving around and like, it, it, it, yes, it’s clearly not a real penis. And there’s a link in the show notes. It’s called prosthetics, animatronic, CGI, and Jason Minsu because Pam and Pam and Tommy made a penis talk in shimmy.

[01:04:38] So if you want to know more, you can go there. But if we have anything further to say, please take it away.

[01:04:45] Christina: Uh, yeah, no, I mean, I think it’s just interesting like that again, like the real guys, like Dick is like, you know, she’s so famous, like for being naked and they’re certainly part of that, but like really the whole thing with this is really in weird ways. Like the whole [01:05:00] iconography of the tape is like his giant penis.

[01:05:03] Brett: What if, what if he had a micro penis and the tape was how the world found out? Because as it is, the tape was, if you like net benefit, probably good for Tommy and bad for Pam, but

[01:05:18] Christina: yeah, probably although it’s interesting, right? Because I mean, at this point she’s Playboy, she’s known for being played Playboy and she’s known for being Baywatch. And, and, and so at that point, and I’m not, again, trying to say that, like, there is no difference between like, you know, like pornography and, um, like, you know, taking like nude photographs and Playboy or, or, or whatever, but

[01:05:39] like she was known for her body.

[01:05:41] She was known for that. She was trying to break into actual mainstream acting roles.

[01:05:47] Brett: Right.

[01:05:47] Christina: I don’t know this. Yeah. Which I don’t know if it helped or hurt. I mean, I think, honestly, the thing that hurt is that she’s not, she’s not an actress, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, no, that’d be just being honest, Right. Because like, like Jenny McCarthy, I always, you [01:06:00] know, and again, she’s gone off the rails and other ways too, but like Jenny McCarthy was actually.

[01:06:04] And like actually had a lot of talents speak. We’re going to talk about the MTB in our next episode, but like Jenny McCarthy, actually, who was, she was the other big, like Playboy person of that era. Like she actually, I think, like I remember the Jenny McCarthy show, which was like her sketch comedy show, which was quite good, honestly.

[01:06:21] Like it, it, uh,

[01:06:22] Brett: I seem to remember liking that. Yeah.

[01:06:24] Christina: honestly, I think that Jenny McCarthy’s problem, which is the opposite of the Pamela Anderson problem is that Jim McCarthy is, is talented enough that it doesn’t match with what she looks like. So you don’t expect someone who looks like her to have the comedic sensibilities that she has.

[01:06:38] It just doesn’t compute. So, so that’s the problem. Whereas Pamela Anderson, if she’d been a slightly better actress could have, you know, maybe done more with it, but I, I don’t know, like if it was a, a net negative or if it was maybe neutral, but I definitely think it was a net positive for him, for sure.

[01:06:59] Jeff: The one [01:07:00] thing,

[01:07:00] Brett: okay, go ahead. No, I was gonna, I was gonna try to like, bring us to an end of the episode, but if you have more to say absolutely do it.

[01:07:08] Jeff: just a little bit, but I also would really love to point something out very different about the nineties before we’re closed, just because it.

[01:07:13] feels like, um, it feels weird not to bring it up. Yeah.

[01:07:18] You’re really, you’re going to regret that when I tell you what it is.

[01:07:21] Brett: Yeah.

[01:07:22] Jeff: so, But first of all, it, you know, the thing about Tommy Lee being like a front man, instead of just a drummer, like, I didn’t realize this until I was just looking again at the celebrity sex tape list, which I learned a lot from last week.

[01:07:35] Like the next sex tape that she was in was with Brett Michaels, the singer poison. I mean, I put singer in quotes, but like he was hot. He was super hot. No, for sure. And you know what that was, I was in

[01:07:48] Brett: and I gave him something to believe.

[01:07:51] Christina: Yeah, you did. You did.

[01:07:52] No, I have to say, like, he was one of the, like, I didn’t find most of those guys attractive at all.

[01:07:56] And again, this was one of those things I wasn’t aware of him until way after, [01:08:00] like, he was, he was big. I remember, but I remember again, like watching, like him on like VH1 behind the music and it’s before they gave him his own, like, uh, um, a flavor of love type show or whatnot. And I was like, okay, I realize you’re wearing the do right.

[01:08:11] Cause you’re you’re bald. I’m sure you’ve got the long hair, but he was like, he was, he was cute. I’m the one who’s actually instill had like hair, uh, would be, what was it? I’m Sebastian Bach.

[01:08:23] Jeff: Is that a thing? Oh, he was, he was

[01:08:25] Brett: who was in my opinion, the best of the hard rock singers,

[01:08:30] Jeff: Oh, amazing.

[01:08:31] Brett: frustratingly homophobic,

[01:08:33] Jeff: Yup.

[01:08:34] Brett: but like his voice, like skip, especially like the eighties version of skid row, but even slave to the grind. Like he, he really, he embodied hard rock singer for me.

[01:08:47] Christina: Yeah. And then, And then he wound up and again, like I became more aware of him. I think again, like I first was aware from like behind the music or something. I was like, oh, you’re you’re attractive. And then he wound up on the Gilmore girls.

[01:08:58] Oh,

[01:08:58] I didn’t know that. [01:09:00] Yeah. So he was in, um, uh, um, Rory, his best friend, um, uh, lane is in a band and, uh, w with the guy that she winds up marrying, and one of the other band members is Sebastian Bach who plays like a completely, you know, just kind of like a cool kind of like, you know, guy, but he’s not playing Sebastian Bach.

[01:09:21] Like he’s just playing kind of like a normal kind of like band dude. Yeah, yeah. Which was actually kind of

[01:09:27] great. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:09:28] Brett: had a drummer named Rachael or not a bass player named Rachel who? Wasn’t a girl.

[01:09:33] Jeff: Mm.

[01:09:34] Brett: I spent years of my life. This is back in the nineties when like, you couldn’t just. Look shit up on the internet and you just, you ran with assumptions. And that was one of the things closer men talked about was like, nobody had a record like Nelson Mandela didn’t die in the eighties, but it was a generally accepted fact that he did because the internet wasn’t a thing.

[01:09:58] Anyway, anyway,

[01:09:59] Jeff: [01:10:00] Um, okay, so I can close this out using a little bit of What you just brought up, which is that you couldn’t look it up on the internet, right? Like one thing that one line from that book that I only know from a book review from the Clusterman book is like this, this repeated almost mantra, like the internet was coming, the internet was coming, the internet was coming.

[01:10:18] And when I, especially with two teenage boys right now, when I look back on, on that time, you know, the seventies to talk about the seventies, It felt like you could touch the seventies. Right. But it doesn’t feel to me, like, I’d be able to feel like I could touch the early nineties, because that was a completely different fucking world.

[01:10:37] From the time you woke up to the time you went to bed, everything you did with your fingers and your eyes was different. Right? Yeah. And I have one other point about that, but I don’t, I don’t want to get in the way I want to hear what you’re

[01:10:49] Christina: saying. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I know what I, I want to hear you in that thought.

[01:10:53] Oh, I think I was going to add, cause I looked this up just in this complete non-sequitur, uh, Sebastian Bach has apparently, uh, rethought, hit the [01:11:00] homophobic lyrics in, uh, that skid row song and has changed them. And he’s even like walk out of interviews when people have

[01:11:05] Brett: What about the aids kills fags, dead shirt.

[01:11:10] Christina: That was

[01:11:10] the first one. And I, and I think that somebody gave that to him. I think that

[01:11:13] Brett: don’t care. He wore it to like an award ceremony.

[01:11:17] Christina: I don’t think he wore it. I think, I think, I think that somebody gave it to him and he was photographed with it. I don’t remember the details anyway. I’m not trying to like defend the guy. I’m just saying.

[01:11:25] Jeff: That’s interesting in context, right? Because like you, I would hear about that kind of stuff from MTV news.

[01:11:30] That’s the only place I’d hear about it. And so if anything changed, MTV news was often not following the beat of Sebastian Bach for more than like six months, you know? And anyway, I wanted to just on a, on a sober note and on, uh, the internet is coming note and on, uh, oh my God. I can’t believe this happened.

[01:11:47] Note on March 7th, 1991, the video of Rodney king being bitten, beaten by police was recorded. Another way to say that is on March 7th, 1991, Rodney king was beaten by police. And it just so happened [01:12:00] that a plumbing salesman, an amateur videographer was in view from his balcony and pulled out his camera and recorded it.

[01:12:09] And, and for me, I mean, I thought about that a ton when George Floyd would was killed and we were always talking about how what’s changed is that there’s the internet and you can see it. And I’m like, no, man, no, no. We saw

[01:12:21] it. This started in

[01:12:22] Christina: 91 and that was.

[01:12:24] Brett: Right. But everyone was actually watching network news at that

[01:12:27] Christina: I know, but I’m saying that it wasn’t just network news.

[01:12:29] It was, it was everywhere. It was, it was hard-copy. I remember like, I mean, again, I’m like, I’m like seven years old and I remember watching that and seeing it All over the place.

[01:12:40] Jeff: And like, for me, what’s so. Um, what’s so remarkable about it. First of all, I have a photograph. My mom used to go out of town a lot and I would move my drums down into the living room.

[01:12:50] So I could watch TV while playing my drums. And I actually have a picture of the beating being aired, um, that you can see my two Toms in the foreground. And then over [01:13:00] that as the TV with the video of, um, king being beaten, it’s just like, and, and, and what’s so incredible to me now is that there was obviously no internet, right. And like you were just saying Christina, like it was on all the TV shows like it hit that kind of international, like attention mark really fast and not, not just when the riots happened. Of course it had it again then, but just the fact of this man being beaten that way and tased that way. In this kind of grainy footage wasn’t enough, even all the way back then with no internet to like really grab the attention of the world.

[01:13:35] I mean, it amounted to not a lot, but, but to me, I actually, that is the start of the nineties. Like we, talked a lot about popular culture in the nineties and I think that’s totally appropriate as a way of assessing the decade. For me, it was like the Gulf war. It was, it was Rodney king. It was, you know, it was watching all of these different kind of things play out often in the office.

[01:13:59] And [01:14:00] often the commentators were sort of the people who had been radicals in the sixties and seventies. And so it actually kind of like tied all that stuff together. You just saw all these like civil rights leaders that were still alive, but just looked a lot older and kind of, you know, whatever, but it like tied everything together without the internet somehow.

[01:14:18] Christina: Yeah, no, I mean, I think somehow.

[01:14:21] Brett: gotta, we gotta find a split point for this. Jeff, how would you feel about doing the last sponsor read of this episode?

[01:14:30] Jeff: Oh, no. Uh, let me look

[01:14:33] Brett: like, I feel like you need to earn your keep.

[01:14:37] Jeff: Oh, it’s textExpander

[01:14:39] Christina: yes.

[01:14:40] Brett: us about text expander, Jeff.

[01:14:42] Sponsor: TextExpander

[01:14:42] Jeff: Oh man. Okay. So I’m reading this blind, but it’s going to be easy to Put my, my, uh, my passion

[01:14:48] Brett: spin on it.

[01:14:49] Jeff: in our fast paced world. Things change constantly and constantly and errors in messaging often have significant Consequences

[01:14:59] Text [01:15:00] expander lets you make new approved messaging available to every team member instantly with just a few key strokes, ensuring your team remains consistent current and accurate.

[01:15:10] Get your, get your message right? Every time expand content that corrects your spelling and keeps your language consistent. Oh my God. Do I use this? Uh, with just a few keystrokes keystrokes keystrokes, your team members will always have the right message for the right person at the right time without relying on memory or copy and paste over-tired listeners get 20% off their first year.

[01:15:36] If you visit textexpander.com/podcast, to learn more about text expander. Let me read that line again. Cause I was so confused that it said podcast.

[01:15:45] Brett: Yeah. W so they used to have individual URLs for every show and they just said, fuck it. And now it’s just text. Even, even when they do sponsor posts on my blog, the link is still text expander.com/podcast.[01:16:00]

[01:16:00] Jeff: Let me cell text expander for a second. And then I’ll re I’ll redo that over tire listeners thing. So all of this stuff is great. Keeping your team in line, whatever that stuff is, something that’s kind of become more of, of their messaging in the last couple years I’ve been using this thing forever and ever, and ever since the very beginning.

[01:16:19] And the thing that it did for me, that I really noticed when I clean install a computer and have it installed text expander yet is I have a tendency when I capitalize the first letter in a sentence to also capitalize the second one. I also have a tendency to scatter semi-colons where they don’t belong.

[01:16:37] Brett: title case while you’re writing.

[01:16:39] Jeff: Title case while I’m writing.

[01:16:41] Am I an animal? It’s a it’s it’s artisinal, uh, title casing. You know what I mean? Like it’s got that. It’s got, it gives you that kind of connection to the creator, you know? Um, but anyway, you can just, all you have to do, if you only use it for this, just put a long list of All the shit that you spell wrong [01:17:00] that you often like kind of the type as you always, you always make the like places where you always put like an extra something, make them a list so that they’re their own trigger when you type them that way.

[01:17:10] And then it automatically corrects it and you don’t look like a jackass overtired listeners get 20% off their first year visit textexpander.com/podcast to learn more about text expander.

[01:17:23] Get some sleep, Jeff

[01:17:23] Brett: Hey, that was a great episode. You guys know in the next episode next week for everyone, except for us, it’ll be like in five minutes for us. But in the next episode, we will actually introduce Jeff. So people know who the fuck he is

[01:17:39] Christina: Yup.

[01:17:39] Brett: and, and we will, we will bring you more exciting pop culture. We’ll we’re going to do a little nerd talk and, uh, best, best.

[01:17:49] More sponsors and different sponsors. You’re going to love it. Stay tuned in the meantime, get some sleep, Jeff, get some sleep, Christina,

[01:17:59] Christina: Get

[01:17:59] some [01:18:00] sleep. Jeff, get some

[01:18:00] Jeff: sleep, get some sleep y’all

[01:18:02] Brett: get some sleep.

[01:18:03] Jeff: but only like five minutes. Cause we got to start this episode.